VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: NintendoKD on June 17, 2010, 03:30:55 pm
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I have brought up the idea of having a cast head, I will need a print to fully realize this, so, does anyone have a print of the aaz head sitting on a shelf somewhere? 8)
thanks,
kevin
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A print? like a 3d model?
who knows... try the stealership?
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not sure, however the gentleman asking cannot give me a certainty until I can give him a print of the motor/head, alo used the term blueprint. This leads me to believe that he is perhaps talking about a drawing, as opposed to a CAD 3-d model, or rapid prototyp/3-d printing. I suggested these and he was confused, he didn't want an object, is how he made it sound, more like he was searching for a map, or rather like a hous eblueprint. I have never heard of such a thing, not very surprising, as cast is seldom used in todays manufacturing, and I am only 25 years young. Perhaps some of the veterans or someone from another country on the forum can shed some light upon this. Really why I posted it here, quite puzzling ???
Thanks,
Kevin
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Dip head in ink.
Slam on paper.
???
Profit ::)
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ummm ........ no ::), pretty sure it doesn't work that way ;D
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(419)443-8987
Call and ask for John. This is air cooled engines plus, but he does a ton for audi vw watercooled stuff as well. I would think as many heads as he ported he might have something or at least know where to source something.
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He needs a blueprint which gives all the measurements to make a mold for casting.
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Yep, and if anyone would have knowledge of the blueprint it would be John.
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already talked to him, that's why I came here. ;)
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did you try the whoretex?
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Not really helpful here, but I wonder if for one off type work you could do this as a sacrificial pattern. That is, use an aluminum head as the pattern for the mold, and then melt the aluminum out of the mold and pour the iron in? My only question would be how to leave a little extra meat on for the machined surfaces. The cam bearing journals could be done the way they used to do some aircraft rod journals, cast it with the top and bottom as one piece, bore and hone the journal, Drill for the cap bolts, and then freeze them with liquid nitrogen and snap them off. This gives a nearly perfect mating surface that will only mate one way, but will not move (at all) once mated and tightened. OT: Come to think of it, I wonder if one could order H beam rods not cut and faced, so that they could be split this way? Sometimes I wish I had a nice little CAM mill, I'd make all kinds of cool stuff.
Anyways, It never hurts to ask, but I really doubt that anyone who has done the work to create a model (or a set of blueprints) for the head is likely to share them. It _shouldn't_ be difficult to break the drawings out from a model, but I suspect that is really a moot point.
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I still have a beat up aaz head as a sacrificial lamb, I, however, lack cad and the nec. skills to produce the digital copy. If it exists it is on the internet, I will attempt to use my ninja powers to extrapolate it's whereabouts. ;D I wanna get the ball rolling on this, not just for me, but for everyone here on the forum. It was suggested to me, "by an acquaintance of mine" by a friend who used to do molds, and whos father is a master moldmaker "lost art :'(" that I should use 43/40 moly I found this unusuual, and as noted in another post of mine I still stick by this as a good idea. any thoughts?
thanks,
Kevin
P.S. don't forget to vote for my build team at www.battleofthebuilds.com (http://www.battleofthebuilds.com) mine is the one from 29 palms, ca, thanks in advance.
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Myke W the mod on here had a beat up 1.6L hydro head I sold him if that helps. I still can get a foundry to do this up if you get it going.
Is there any way to contact VW engineers and ask them? Just ideas.
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I want to use the aaz head because of the feasability and the rarity. As opposed to everyone trying to track down and use an aaz engine, why not just use the aaz head, make more power because of lower static compression and the head just breathes better. Not only that but users of the aaz head would be able to go hydro or mech. I was also making a prediction of demand assigned units, that is, I figured more folks would want an aaz head anyways. In the future, provided I can find a way to get the cost down etc. I planned to have all of the variants made from a stronger material than AL. Price per unit is definately an issue here, the majority of folks here don't want to spend a fortune fixing their cars up so demand and total units produced will def. depend on price, which is opposite to how it works most of the time. I would love to know if VW would be down for bringing bach the old IDI in a "new" look.
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I meant asking VW for the blueprints. I understand what you are doing I am just trying to help make it all happen.
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i think we are fighting a losing battle. whats a head going to cost? about 3 grand? is anyone even going to be able to afford one?
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If we get the prints I could tell you. No idea what machining will cost, but I know I can get the best deal for castings:D
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yessssss ;D let' do it
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i do remember a while back on here there was a gentleman by the name Andy2, he was haveing a head cast from iron out in ottawa here in ontario. I havent head from him for quite some time, but it would be my guess he may have connections to either a 3D print or someone who does. i know a few machinests, and vw gurus so ill try my connections as well see what i can come up with
If you guys can get this rolling i am more than interested in a cast head :)
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i just asked tyler about andys head.. he would know if anyone would..
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any news on andy at all??
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news keep this alive, many of us NEED! THIS! :'(
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As I'm sure you already know, it will likely need to be a group thing as I imagine the patterns will not be cheap. I would think the drag(bottom part of the pattern) will need the shape of the head and then other patterns for the cores will be needed as well. I used to work in the steel industry (foundry) and cheapest I've seen for patterns (in Edmonton, AB) for a simple round part with a hole in the middle is about $2000. I'm not sure, but I can't see aluminum patterns if it's going to be a sand casting being any cheaper.
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There has to be a way, this is America darn it. I believe, I really do. Big buisness, big production foundry? perhaps not, but there has got to be a crackpot dreamer of a machinist with a finger itchin to make something like this out there, we just have to find him. Now if you will excuse me I have to go back to finding this hay straw in a needle stack *ow* ;) I am not condescending your efforts here or putting down the fact that you are trying to help, but the folks here can't afford it, unless, of course we can all pitch in for the R&D, that will also give very accurate no.s for those interested in one, and pretty much set their place in line. This will also give us a good number to give to the producers of said goody to lower the price per unit.
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There has to be a pattern making shop (the industry's name for Mold Maker) that has a CT scanner (xray) for creating a 3d CAD model of an aluminum part like this... They could then print it on their 3D "printer" - a polymer laser printer, that could then be used to create the investment casting (like a ceramic mold that greatly reduces the machining operations)...
its all about volume as some of these costs are fixed for 1 or 1,000 heads and you need to spread it out. Same thing is true for making a car - the material and labor costs are less than that of the tooling and engineering to design it. One hood may take 5 or 6 sets of dies to stamp out the part. Each die costing tens of thousands dollars just to make..
Someone has done it as Porthe is having his cast in China.
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china.....hmmmmm....... upon farther though.... NOPE! cost effectiveness means nothing if the head is junk, which, in this case is quite counterproductive. ;)
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china.....hmmmmm....... upon farther though.... NOPE! cost effectiveness means nothing if the head is junk, which, in this case is quite counterproductive. ;)
Just because it's from China, does not mean it is junk. I have seen plenty junk items come from U.S.A or even my homeland Canada.. don't bash the entire country because they make cheap toys.. ;)
Prothe offers a very well cast head if you must know.. No reason to bash things man.
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sorry, not bashing, I just don't like to gamble on a bad track record. If I buy a wrench from MAC tools then I get a lifetime warranty if I buy a toy from china I get a cheap plastic piece of junk it is not bashing, but simple statistics. I prefer to take the lower odds. I understand that there is no such thing as a sure bet, "except for amish goods" but well, I think you know where I am going. I do not want to sacrifice reliability for price, especially if the heads are for other members here, if it were just me te deal would be sealed but I refuse to allow friends to buy a cheap head for possibly staking the life of their engine on to have it crack under just 35 psi. No bashing here just the facts.
thanks,
Kevin
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Okay, speaking of cheap I just had a thought. I bought a "cheap" head from prothe and I don't plan on using it as I have a 1.9 as a backup. This was supposed to be for a 1.6, but I was able to find precups for the head I had.
So.. I would be willing to sell this cheap head for cheap, say around $50.00 CAD if you'd like to cut it up and measure everything you need from it. I could be wrong, or hope I'm wrong, but I doubt you will find a print for it. Just a thought...
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I already have a junk head to sodomize ;)
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Fabrication forum at VWVortex, thread is called "DIY guide for casting parts" and he's doing a lot of amazing stuff. He is planning on casting his own cylinder head at some point. Just something to keep an eye on. I doubt he will consider making other types of heads but if he can do it with the types of equipment (basic stuff) he is using, then anyone else who has the skills could probably do it too. It's a LONG thread but worth every minute of reading.
Nothing wrong with some Chinese stuff. They are leading the world in mass-produced forging and casting. Of course some of it is junk too, but any one of us could have a complete cast part drawn up and designed, we could send the design to a foundry in China and have a part in our hands in no-time. 034 Motorsport is having a foundry in China make some of their turbo manifolds. Only way they could keep costs down and still get a quality part make to their specs- I've got no problem with that.
Building the inner molds will be the hard part, especially when taking into account the shrinkage of the casting- other than that, the casting itself will probably be very inexpensive. The final machining on the other hand, will be quite expensive and that's something you would probably want done in an English-speaking country. :)
Brendan
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that would be the way to do it, get them cast in china, and machined right here at home..
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If you sent them a head, I bet they'd start knocking them out machined and all and ebay them, after you you had your order filled. On a side note I emailed the company my cousin used to get coolant jackets made to his spec.
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well, I think this is far beyond my skillset or timeframe, but... I planned on putting a small machine shop in the barn, might as well add a smelter to the list of things to buy/build/have.
out of curiosity, but a little off topic, unless I'm mistaken, it would simplify the design to create a waterjacketless head would it not? my cousin and I have tooled around with building a drag rabbit, and rather than fill in the waterjacket to strengthen the head, would it be of any benefit to remove it from existence entirely? does anyone run a waterless VW diesel? I've got way too many projects right now to even consider an attempt at this, but with my neighbors help, (he does this with tons of steel at a time for a living) we may be able to make something happen, eventually...
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very cheap and easy to build
http://www.corvusmoon.com/kiln.htm (http://www.corvusmoon.com/kiln.htm)
there is some other neat stuff for free bouncing about the internet, as well as the fellow on the whoretex who is forging his own parts "AMAZING THREAD!"
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I would build my own but I live on a military installation on borrowed land and the rules state that building a smelter in ones backyard is not bad..... just frowned upon. I love my free A/C so naturally I follow the rules.
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well, I think this is far beyond my skillset or timeframe, but... I planned on putting a small machine shop in the barn, might as well add a smelter to the list of things to buy/build/have.
out of curiosity, but a little off topic, unless I'm mistaken, it would simplify the design to create a waterjacketless head would it not? my cousin and I have tooled around with building a drag rabbit, and rather than fill in the waterjacket to strengthen the head, would it be of any benefit to remove it from existence entirely? does anyone run a waterless VW diesel? I've got way too many projects right now to even consider an attempt at this, but with my neighbors help, (he does this with tons of steel at a time for a living) we may be able to make something happen, eventually...
So it wouldn't be a daily driver then..........I'd want water cooling.
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a solid head on a diesel would be alright, but it would be nothing more than a drag car. plain and simple. it could run for mno more than like 5 minutes at a time, max. the head is the part that absorbs the most heat. those prechambers get REAL HOT.
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yeah kinda need a water jacket of some kind
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My noggin tells me that a beast of a diesel would be a 24 valve V6 tdi alluminum top & bottom all cast as a single piece - with water jackets...
you would have to install the valves with a grippy arm tool from the bottom of each of the cylinder sleeves.
throw some titanium con rods, pistons [ceramic coated of course], crank, valves[also ceramic] and you've got an interesting mix.
Include computer controled pnematic valve train (like in a formula 1) and you've got a VERY interesting mix. Also, no timing belt.
Also, be sure to include room for an injector nozzle that would inject distilled water, no2 and LPG (or LNG) all through the same nozzle - beside the diesel injector.
Direct injection for both the main accelerant (diesel) and water,no2 and LNG/LPG.
Something worth mentioning would be that it would be a dry sump and twin charged with big VNT's. Hopefully the h20 would keep the EGT's in the realm of the VNT's.
if not, a supercharger and a larger turbo, like a T3/T4, would be suitable. Perhaps bigger than a T3 actually.
all that lng, no2 and water might even call for an HY35. perhaps even an HX35.
my 2 cents.
I should also include that the manifolds would all be equal length runners, plenums for the intake and ram horn style exhaust equal length headers for ideal turbo spooling.
I would also like to point out that this would fit somewhat easily in any MK4 with the AC removed and a AWD tranny.
and as for intercooling i think liquid nitrogen could be a suitable heat soak to add into the intake mix OR a FMIC or water to air IC.
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That would be nice, very nice... 8)
But I think ill have a hard enough time paying for the iron head for now.
Speaking of which, what kind of figures do you think we are looking at. 1K, 1500, 2K each?
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That would be nice, very nice... 8)
But I think ill have a hard enough time paying for the iron head for now.
Speaking of which, what kind of figures do you think we are looking at. 1K, 1500, 2K each?
If all goes well maybe 500 USD per, possibly less if plain jane cast is used.
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Hopefully that AAZ head I sent you will come in handy for something more then a paperweight lol
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already waaaaaay ahead of ya 8) I just knew it would come in handy, if I kept it around. "now what do I use for a paperweight?" ;D
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I think maybe I could come up with something else if you want other paperweight lol. Wait a few months I may have an ABA motor thats going to be junk lol
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Building the inner molds will be the hard part, especially when taking into account the shrinkage of the casting- other than that, the casting itself will probably be very inexpensive. The final machining on the other hand, will be quite expensive and that's something you would probably want done in an English-speaking country. :)
Brendan
A funny thing happens when you pour a mold - the vast majority of the shrinkage does not happen uniformly as you'd expect. You cast a large funnel shaped spire where you fill the mold. When you pour the melt, you fill that funnel too and cover it with "hot top" - a sort of high temp insulation stuff that hold the heat in for a slower freeze. As it cools, the shrinkage pulls in most if not all the funnel material into the part !! Yes, the inner plugs must take into account about 7% shrinkage (metal dependant), but most is from the cone.
Can you tell I've had a lot of fun casting high tech stuff ?
well, I think this is far beyond my skillset or timeframe, but... I planned on putting a small machine shop in the barn, might as well add a smelter to the list of things to buy/build/have.
I hope if you want precision output you climate control to 72 degrees winter / summer. That is the one biggest mistake new shops make. Otherwise you'll only machine things to China's standards ;-)
My noggin tells me that a beast of a diesel would be a 24 valve V6 tdi alluminum top & bottom all cast as a single piece - with water jackets...
you would have to install the valves with a grippy arm tool from the bottom of each of the cylinder sleeves.
There was a recent SAE paper published on the design of the new Ford PowerStroke... basically they said up front the best design was a straight 6 with 24 valves (like the Cummins) but due to packaging concerns with current vehicles they would go with the V-8 design. You might find it with Google but I suspect its for member of SAE.
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Yeah I have casted beryllium copper and aluminum and of coarse lead sinkers lol.
There is tons of shrinkage in everything I have heard of except boron and it will actually grow when cast. I haven't cast boron to know for sure, but that is what I have been told.
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I hope if you want precision output you climate control to 72 degrees winter / summer. That is the one biggest mistake new shops make. Otherwise you'll only machine things to China's standards ;-)
if it has to be 72, we could have trouble, it'll be easier to insulate the loft, and control temperature, but getting my machineshop up there will be difficult, and i'm pretty sure the load rating isn't capable of heavy equipment. I'll probably have to settle for finishing a room on the corner of the barn, and insulating/heating/cooling that.
I'm not too worried, thats gonna be a couple years down the road yet. for now, tolerances will be "does the bolt/hose/bracket/etc fit?"
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That would be nice, very nice... 8)
But I think ill have a hard enough time paying for the iron head for now.
Speaking of which, what kind of figures do you think we are looking at. 1K, 1500, 2K each?
If all goes well maybe 500 USD per, possibly less if plain jane cast is used.
holy crap, then put me down for 6!
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holy crap, then put me down for 6!
uhh yeah! I was expecting far more than that so I didn't bother saying anything, but at $500 it sounds far more interesting. Just one for me though :)
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I def want like 2, I think that at this point for more accurate no's we should start an interest thread to get sure footed numbers
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If this happens, and it works, and you can keep the price below $1000, I will take at least 1
How many heads do you think you would you have to sell to get to that targeted price?
Also wondering, would that be the price of a fresh cast, meaning we the end user would still need to touch up (grind down) all the extra rough casting points, or will it be a, Just add your valve train and bolt it to your block and run it hard kind of head?
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I hope if you want precision output you climate control to 72 degrees winter / summer. That is the one biggest mistake new shops make. Otherwise you'll only machine things to China's standards ;-)
if it has to be 72, we could have trouble, it'll be easier to insulate the loft, and control temperature, but getting my machineshop up there will be difficult, and i'm pretty sure the load rating isn't capable of heavy equipment. I'll probably have to settle for finishing a room on the corner of the barn, and insulating/heating/cooling that.
I'm not too worried, thats gonna be a couple years down the road yet. for now, tolerances will be "does the bolt/hose/bracket/etc fit?"
If you are going to make precision parts, yeah, 72... if your market is going to be less so, go for it with what you have - I had a business parter who got a contract with Cadillac making bumper brackets in a corner of his warehouse - no a/c but heated in summer. Worked great and he had one machinist punching them out with a small press.
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If you are going to make precision parts, yeah, 72... if your market is going to be less so, go for it with what you have - I had a business parter who got a contract with Cadillac making bumper brackets in a corner of his warehouse - no a/c but heated in summer. Worked great and he had one machinist punching them out with a small press.
well, shamus is a grinder by trade, but more than capable of running anything but a lathe (he had a bad experience) and he can machine anything I need, up to 5 millions of an inch tolerance, until I get my shop built. I don't plan on marketing anything, unless things are much easier, and cheaper than I expect. I can do temp/humidity control, but until my wvo genny is built it's not gonna be cheap enough to justify. geothermal heat/cooling, with additional as needed. it doesn't get stupid hot here all that often, and I don't plan on working in a machineshop when it's sunny and 90.
stupid question. am i gonna ruin any of those tight tolerance machining tools with temp fluctuations? it seems like it'd only be important to keep climate controlled while working. Am I wrong?
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If you are going to make precision parts, yeah, 72... if your market is going to be less so, go for it with what you have - I had a business parter who got a contract with Cadillac making bumper brackets in a corner of his warehouse - no a/c but heated in summer. Worked great and he had one machinist punching them out with a small press.
well, shamus is a grinder by trade, but more than capable of running anything but a lathe (he had a bad experience) and he can machine anything I need, up to 5 millions of an inch tolerance, until I get my shop built. I don't plan on marketing anything, unless things are much easier, and cheaper than I expect. I can do temp/humidity control, but until my wvo genny is built it's not gonna be cheap enough to justify. geothermal heat/cooling, with additional as needed. it doesn't get stupid hot here all that often, and I don't plan on working in a machineshop when it's sunny and 90.
stupid question. am i gonna ruin any of those tight tolerance machining tools with temp fluctuations? it seems like it'd only be important to keep climate controlled while working. Am I wrong?
Friend, you are correct, you will harm nothing by working off temp beyond your parts, and then it will only be by some small % of tolerance based upon how far off 72 degrees your machines and stock was. Day to day this is important, but not for every day within a few degrees of standard. :-(