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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Soot Sandwich on May 24, 2010, 07:34:17 am
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I am pretty sure my head gasket is blown. I am going to replace it.
I added the Giles pump before I knew this to add power. I never touched the Max-Fuel Screw. Apparently, I smoke all the time under throttle, even light throttle. At night, I can see a ton of smoke in the headlights of people behind me. Is there anything I can do to adjust this smoke? Also, the car really has no power but, maybe a little more range with the Giles pump. I attribute this to the headgasket being blown. Can I turn the max fuel screw to help partial throttle? Or, is it all because of the headgasket?
Thanks,
Steve
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are you sure its the HG? Did you check for coolant in the oil and vice versa? Have you looked for air leaks in the vacuum system? Checked timing? I always check little things that are cheap fixes and work my way up to the wallet/knuckle bleeder work.
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+1 to everything Macka said, and what color is the smoke?
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What do you have the pump timed to?
Do you know the condition of your injectors?
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Well, I am sure, based on the thread that details all the symptoms of a blown head-gasket, that my head-gasket is blown. Sometimes, after hours of operation, going up hill I have zero power. One time, the engine was above the midway point in coolant temp and I had zero power and tons of white smoke from the tailpipe.
A nasty black film in the coolant reservoir, with bits of black fluid (oil I am assuming). It also appears that I have oil coming from the head gasket on the backside of the engine. I may have an air leak in the vacuum system but what does this have to do with the drive train. My brakes usually go to the floor on the first pump (I attribute this to the MC) and when I do have pressure i can press the pedal back down with resistance. When I installed the Giles pump I replaced the tensioner and timing belt and I checked timing a billion times. I timed the fuel pump to about the middle of the spec. I believe at first we were at 0.95mm? and I changed it to be closer to 1mm. It starts up faster then any gas engine I have ever seen even on cold days.
If I floor it I get a ton of black smoke (soot I assume) with little result that is visible during the day.
I have never checked my injectors, I have no idea on the condition and they are expensive. And, opening the injector lines while the engine is spinning freaks the *** out of me.
Anymore thoughts? Things to try? Thanks for the help!
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Oh, and its a mechanical head and I have no idea when the valves were adjusted. :-X
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Start with the easy and cheap thing then. Check those valves.
It's very rare for a headgasket to leak oil in the back because there is no pressurized oil passages along the back. The only oil along the back of the engine is for returning oil to the pan. The oil on the back of the engine is likely from the valve cover gasket.
Does the overflow bottle pressurize instantly? Are there bubbles in it with the engine running?
The oil in the overflow could be from a previous problem.
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Okay I will check the valves asap. It could be from the valve cover gaskets I had trouble with...Oil leaked everywhere but I was certain it was behind the manifolds.
To check the reservoir, should i start the car and open the bottle? It shouldn't be pressurize at that point, correct, so if I hear it depressurize it means I am losing compression through the coolant system?
What other issues could the car have had for there to be deposits like that? It does have the ***ty green coolant in it now...mixing? YIKES!
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Well a previous headgasket failure could have released some oil into the system. That oil might have gotten trapped somewhere in the system and when it got hot it freed up and moved to the reservoir. How long have you owned the car for?
What you should do is with the engine cold remove the overflow cap. Put it back on and start the car. Let it run for 30 seconds. Turn it off and remove the cap again. If it hisses then it's the headgasket. If it did hiss you should be able to run it with the cap off and see bubbles in the coolant. You might need to rev it up to see them.
If the car has an oil cooler (just above the oil filter) then that can leak oil into the coolant.
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Okay, I will try this.
Yeah new MC ordered today from GAP. That is getting fixed asap.
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Okay, update, tried the coolant test: opened the system, closed the system, ran the car for 30 seconds, opened the coolant reservoir, nothing, or almost nearly nothing. Does this mean I am saved?! Could the lack of power be attributed to not having my valves adjusted in 170k? (I don't actually know when they were adjusted) I will measure them today and let everyone know. Should I measure them hot or cold or lukewarm?
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Okay replaced the MC, the brakes feel 1000 times better and NEVER go to the floor now. I am happy and I did it all by myself. 8)
Now, I didn't get a chance to measure my valves but, I did notice I was quite low on oil. So my valves are probably out of tolerance and I am burning oil... Should I measure my valved cold, hot, anyone?
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Its not a big thing about temp if all you're doing is checking the clearance for ballpark numbers. Cold - warm is easier on the hands.
You probably won't have the special tools and special shims on hand to adjust them anyway. Just get some reference numbers on them all.
They tend to read a bit tighter tolerance when hot - fwiw.
If my mind is thinking right.
Try the cap test again. This time go for 60 seconds.
And get results.
If all that is good - do some driveway testing of racing the engine in different ways that will produce your smoke. Run back there and smell it. Burnt oil ? Burnt coolant ? Unburnt fuel ? all the above ?
Sometimes it helps to back up to a wall (not a pretty wall) - or make a plywood barrier - if the smoke is hard for you to see. Later in the evening before dark works better sometimes too.
Sounds like you might need to go ahead and replace ALL the filters unless you know they are currently new'ish. New fuel hoses and clamps on both sides of the fuel filter. Those things will eliminate most of the common problems.
Are you still on the same batch of fuel ? Do you always get it at same place ? Might be fuel itself. Or the viscosity. Try another source and also add some PowerService DieselKleen in the grey jug. It can do good things, and it thins the fuel a bit too.
Always buy an engine oil that is diesel rated or diesel specific, not the cheapest thing on the shelf.
If still same symptoms after all the above is done and tested - time to move onto pulling the injectors and having them tested at a diesel repair facility.
Faulty/worn injectors can cause smoke and oil burning.
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What year model car - and engine - do you have ?
Does the rubber vent hose from your valve cover go into the airbox ? Or does it branch into two parts and go into the intake manifold ?
Pull your oil cap off - hopefully you will see a cover shield - and not the cam lobes. if you see lobes, get a splash/cover shield under there.
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Thanks Baron. The car is a 1985 Jetta Coupe 1.6L NA Diesel made in Germany. It has 173k miles on it. The air filter, glow plugs, oil, oil filter, timing belt, tensioner, injection pump (Giles) has been replaced, new injector return lines, and I am getting a new upgraded fuel filter from Giles as well.
PCV goes right into the intake manifold as you describe and I have no cover shield.
I will run the tests you have suggested here and measure the valves. Hopefully this week. :)
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Okay folks, finally measured my valves. The results are puzzling, the spec for NA is warm 0.008"-0.012" for the intake and 0.016"-0.020" for the exhaust. I measured these when the engine was definitely warm. Could the engine be too warm? The results are as follows:
From Timing Belt:
E: 0.013"
I: 0.011"
E: 0.016"
I: 0.011"
I: 0.009"
E: 0.014"
I:0.010"
E:0.012"
All of the exhaust clearances except one are out of spec. My first questions is should I fix them?
My second question is could this be the reason I have little to no power and a bunch of smoke?
Also, I messed around with my residual fuel screw tonight. I found that turning the screw back would drop the revs at idle (expected I know) but, my battery light would faintly flicker and get brighter the more I turned the screw CCW. Could this be a cheap trick to hide a fault battery? Should I tighten the Alternator belt? My idle is about 1100-1200rpms when the battery light turns off completely.
Now, where the screw is now, when I hit the gas breifly I get a huge puff of dark dark grey smoke (I wouldn't call it black). When I turn the screw back I still get a little less smoke but, it turns lighter. I haven't put my oil cover in for the valve train yet so I won't play around too much but, I am very puzzled.
Does anyone have any ideas about any of this?
Could the fuel screw be turned too high up for my car and it could be hurting performance with too much fuel?
Could the out of spec clearances in the exhaust valves be ruining everything?
Could I just be burning oil from the pcv and smoking so much that it's misleading me with the fuel screw and hurting performance?
Can I turn down the fuel screw and turn up the idle stop screw to compensate for my alternator needing 1100-1200rpms?
Thanks for everyone's patience!
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does the oil cap dance on the valve cover if you loosen it?
and your alt or something in the system is shot if it needs 1200 revs to work right.
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Can I turn down the fuel screw and turn up the idle stop screw to compensate for my alternator needing 1100-1200rpms?
You DO need to adjust the idle stop screw (and throttle stop) when you adjust the fuel screw to maintain the same(previous) idle speed; 1100-1200 does seems a bit high for "idle" but I can't comment too much as I have no tach on my setup... If you are smoking and everything else is assumed correct, then I would guess you are over-fueling. Try turning down the fuel screw till you don't get much smoke, adjust the idle stop accordingly and go for a spin.... you will most likely notice LESS power though. Have you had a chance to do a compression test?
Do you just have to rev over 1200 rpm once to get your alternator to kick on (excite) or do you have to be constantly over 1200 for the light to go out on the dash?
Will be interested to what other have to say on the valves... I've never checked my clearances... probably should...
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Ugh, so now at the very least I need a new alt?
I have to constantly be at 1200 but, strange thing is when I have the AC on I go down to 950rpms and the Batt light never goes on. Could it be a weird grounding issue? They say electrical problems that make no sense are probably grounding issues. Ah, I think I may have found some ideas: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21550.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21550.0)
I will adjust the fuel screw and stop screw and see what happens.
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*My first question is should I fix them?
-I'd check them again when cold and see if it changes numbers much. Whoever adjusted them last time must have not had a selection of shims, or good enough selection. And just went as close as they had on hand.
I would rather be on the loose side - than the tight side - given a choice.
*My second question is could this be the reason I have little to no power and a bunch of smoke?
-Really really doubt it.
But a compression test will help you in many ways.
If nothing else but to have a baseline mark for future.
*My idle is about 1100-1200rpms when the battery light turns off completely.
-An 85 NA would not have come with a factory tach.
Maybe this was originally a TD car, or someone swapped the tach into it. But anyway - they are not always totally accurate in every case. It may be over-reading.
Take car to AutoZone when you can and have the alternator checked by their in-car machine. Another benefit of this is that their machine can detect the idle speed on our diesels, but goes bonkers much above idle. But that will let you know how well your tach is reading at idle.
Since you have a Giles pump, and the other new maintenance items, my best guess is either some of your initial timing parameters are off the mark - or the injection timing is off specs.
If you know you are good on those points, I would highly recommend pulling the injectors out and having a look at them.
The #1 compliment to a fresh pump is fresh or rebuilt injectors.
At minimum the injectors should be verified as proper when a new/fresh pump is being installed.
Hang in there, it'll come around more than likely once you get all the bases covered.
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Okay, so I'll remeasure cold and see where that gets me.
I will have to get the compression tester kit it looks like...
I swapped the diesel tach.
Can I test the injectors by cracking them at idle and seeing if the idle changes? This way if I need new ones I can just have them on hand to replace when I do the compression check.
I believe my pump timing was 96 when I did the install.
I will try to adjust fueling and check the Alt charging with an multimeter just to be sure if its a ground or not. I will take it to Autozone when i get the chance.
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Can I test the injectors by cracking them at idle and seeing if the idle changes? This way if I need new ones I can just have them on hand to replace when I do the compression check.
Cracking them open will only tell you something if one is about dead. Like pulling a spark plug wire from a gasser.
I'm thinking more along the lines of dirty/sooted/carboned nozzles.
You'll have to remove injectors to check for that - but since you're planning a compression test - its all in the same operation.
Bosch nozzles are about $10 each through places like AhausAZ and eGerman. Most places are higher than that, or don't offer Bosch at all. You 'could' go ahead and get a set to have on hand. New nozzles are better than old ones anyday. Spec is between 50-60k miles on replacing them and having pop pressure verified.
Or you could just get new/reman'd injectors and put them in, if you don't have a local shop to check your old ones. I would definitely want new injectors or serviced injectors to go with a new inj pump.
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Okay, where can i get good reman set of NA injectors for a decent price?
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Seems like AutohausAZ.com has best deal going on Bosch Reman'd.
$36 each - plus $11 core each - free shipping
The bargain priced Harbor Freight diesel compression tester seems to work great for the money. I have one, and many others here have them too.
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Okay, put the baffle in for the valvetrain. I ran the car at idle and took the oil cap off, it vibrated from side to side on while resting on the valve cover (which I expected). No smoke, very minimal steam at first then nothing. I had my wife hit the throttle while i stood at the tail pipe. Black Black smoke, smells just like pure and simple diesel. Next step, compression check with reman injector install.
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Okay, where can i get good reman set of NA injectors for a decent price?
I'm running "new" NA injectors from prothe/dieselvw.com; They're $24 each. I know his products are questionable and you get what you pay for, but no complaints so far, they are better than my old ones with 200k+ miles. Not sure if anyone has taken a longer more technical look at them...
I will probably have my original set rebuilt by Giles at some point though. ;)
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Hey! How many miles have you been running them? I swore to myself after one questionable experience with prothe that I would never buy anything from him that was critical to the cars operation.
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Hey! How many miles have you been running them? I swore to myself after one questionable experience with prothe that I would never buy anything from him that was critical to the cars operation.
only about 1500 miles; anyone with more miles or experience with them please chime in though... I'll post up if anything goes wrong with them. ;)
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Okay, swapped injectors and tuned the Giles Pump so that it barely smokes at all. No more smoke at part throttle and the RPMs are proper.
It appears as fast as before only it doesn't smoke. I guess this is what 50hp feels like in 2300lbs. I am coming from 250hp in 3000lbs.
I didn't check compression, somehow I forgot. I was kicking myself.
Does anyone have any idea why sometimes my tach jumps around past 3krpms? Also, I seem to get quite a lot of vibration through the accelerator pedal. Motor mounts?
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The tach jumping around is probably due to a bad connection on your 'W' terminal on the alternator... Check there first!
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Okay, more driving, car feels great, decent get-up and zero smoke even at max throttle. I have noticed that my tach does not jump around if i approach 3k slowly and smoothly. Also, under 3/4 throttle the car gets up to 3k nicely but then hits a brick wall almost. Like it runs out fuel or something. Should I adjust the pump screw for max throttle?
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The "Brick Wall" is the governor... There's a load of postings on here about the "governor mod" or "gov mod", they'll explain the deal. There's a spring in your pump who's job it is to start cutting fueling around 3K and then pretty much totally shut it off by 4400 RPM or so. It's definitely an "advanced" thing to try, with lots of potential for problems!
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pfft, its not a hard project at all. last gov mod took me less than a half hour..
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if Giles already rebuilt the pump shouldn't that mod already be done? :-\
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might be done already, but if he is hitting a wall, i would bet it still has its governor intact and not shimmed.
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Well, Giles did give me a performance rebuild. Paid a great deal for it so I would hope that's been taken care of. I am going to do more "testing" to see whats what. I want to be sure it is not pilot error before I go back to him.
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Okay, so, a couple things I have noticed. The car revs fine fast 3k. I just get an alarming amount of vibration through the pedal at 3k. Could it be my throttle is hitting the floor too soon and I'm not getting the full potential from the pump?
I have noticed that my temp gauge goes up well past middle just below the 2nd to last small dot then the rad fan kicks on and then the temp goes back down to middle. Is there something wrong? Is my water pump going? Shouldn't my fan be kicking on earlier?
Also, at idle, my cars vbelts seem to not be spinning true...could I have bent some when i removed them while doing my timing belt? Where is the best place to get replacements?
Thanks,
Steve
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Jezebel vibrates like mad past 3K... After I shimmed my gov spring and did the first few higher RPM pulls it scared the crap out of me. Now that I've been running like that for a few months I'm pretty much used to it - seems a 1.6L IDI shakes like hell once it spins up to those speeds.
Temp gauge behavior sounds normal from what I've heard. The fan doesn't kick in until the engine is fairly warm. Nothing wrong with that - these engines like heat!
V-belts... bent pullies definitely do bad things. I made a mistake putting the outer WP pulley on mine (I thought the spacer was supposed to go on the outside) and ended up warping it pretty good. Threw a belt on a highway trip after that. So yeah, they're not hard to warp, and messed up pullies will do bad things!
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Okay, so, a couple things I have noticed. The car revs fine fast 3k. I just get an alarming amount of vibration through the pedal at 3k. Could it be my throttle is hitting the floor too soon and I'm not getting the full potential from the pump?
Yes it's possible. You need to make sure that you are getting full throttle movement on the pump, it's very important.
If you paid for a performance pump you have a modified governor.
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How do I make sure I am getting full throttle? When I put the pedal down, the throttle goes to the end of its travel (the threaded rod).
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Then you are getting full travel. If the throttle lever on the pump hit's it's stop then all is good.
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Hmm, okay. Good info on here. I will double check my throttle to make sure it goes full travel.
Anyone know where I can get new pullies? Can I use gasser pullies?
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you gotta use diesel pullies, otherwise none of them will line up right. gasser pullies are made to work with the narrower crank sprocket.
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The brickwall could be a fuel restriction. I would try and hook a vacuum gauge up to the feed and see what it says at 3k with your foot to the floor.
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Hook a vacuum gauge up to the fuel feed? Would I tee the line? Hmm... What kind of draw should I be seeing at 3k? Or am I just looking for a dip at 3k?
Sometimes I think maybe I'm just not sure what's normal as I am not familiar with the diesels. After getting some feedback on the forums I feel pretty good about the car. Lack of power aside (it really could use 150hp) although I still have fun with it.
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Yeah tee into it. I think Trev0r posted that 8" is where he starts to get worried.