VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => Upgrades (non engine related ) => Topic started by: ventureforth on May 20, 2010, 04:35:11 pm
-
I've been reading up on transmission swaps and had a quick question. From what I've ready, if I'm not mistaken, it sounds as if I can swap any of the 4-series transmissions (i.e. 4T, 4S) onto my '82 Rabbit 1.6NA in place of the stock 4-speed. They all have the 90mm flange. However, based on info from a site I found linked in another post, there are mounting differences between some of them (hole vs. stud). Which would I need? 4S uses stud mount, 4T and the others use a hole mount.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
-
(http://www.brokevw.com/pic%20086pp.JPG)
This is the site this is from and has everything that you could ever want to know about trans.
http://www.brokevw.com/ (http://www.brokevw.com/)
-
Your options are more widespread than just selecting from trans with 4_ codes.
My 81 has an ACH code 5spd, from an 85 diesel.
The mk2 diesel trans are all 90mm - but not all will have the right mounting provisions for mk1 - i don't think....
late 89 - 92 diesel trans are all dogs anyway
91-92 ecodiesel trans isn't usually a good choice either
-
But what is most straightforward? Would the correct 4_ be a simple bolt on affair for the most part, while the later models would require more mods and fabrication, etc.? I'm not running a lot of power in front of the tranny. It's a stock 1.6NA (though I might send the pump to Giles). Even then, I would imagine even the 4_ tranny is up to the task. My biggest concern at the moment is ease of install, but reliability is always a consideration.
-
Any of the mk1 or mk2 trans will be plenty reliable.
They are all 020 series. Proven through the test of time.
Keeping proper lubricant level is about the only vital element on them.
90mm flanges - and the correct mounting provisions - will be the most straitforward for sure - most all of us prefer a direct replacement.
You can convert 100mm flanges, over to 90mm flanges.
But the mounting provision deal is non-negoitable.
ACN is the "hot code" for most mk1 diesel owners.
But it comes with 100mm flanges, and that requires a change of flanges, or knuckles, or hybrid axles.
I think about all the 1985 and 1986 020 trans have both mk1/mk2 mounting access, maybe further in some cases. But an 85 code ACH is a direct bolt in for sure on mk1. Still verify anything before purchase, never say never. You could be the new owner of a needle in a haystack otherwise.
The final drive ratio is usually a big part of choosing what to buy. And sometimes availability will limit your choices. So it's good to have as many choices (codes) to choose from as possible.
Take a look at the tranny charts on these links:
Both have some really good info on codes, ratios, flange sizes, and original applications.
www.a2resource.com (http://www.a2resource.com)
http://www.scirocco.org/gears/ (http://www.scirocco.org/gears/)
If you do a lot of highway driving, you'll want a final drive number that is numerically lower than 3.00 if possible.
You take the ring/pinion ratio (3.67 for instance) and multiply that by the 5th gear (0.75 for instance) to arrive at the final drive number.
Code FF is a good Mk1 5spd code, and you will find others listed too.
Limiting to 4_ codes might make the hunt tougher.
Just depends on what is around in your area.
Good to have as many codes that are satisfactory to your needs as possible, when you begin the hunt.
There was also a nice 4spd called 3+E.
I "think" it was code GC, from memory.
2 years ago i never planned on owning a mk1, and could have scored a 3+E on the cheap cheap. oh well
I have an 82 4spd Truck - it has the crap code GN.
My 81 Truck was also originally 4spd code GN.
It was converted to the 1985 ACH 5spd.
You will probably have to make some mild mods to your existing shift box underneath the vehicle - unless you can source the shift box from an original 5spd mk1. I had to make some relief cuts on the outer perimeter rim, and bent the rim flat in the area where the shifter fork was rubbing/binding when shifted into 5th.
I didn't do the 4spd to 5spd conversion.
A previous owner did that.
Shifting into 5th was a hassle, and that was the cure I applied to it.
It will probably hamper the use and/or lifespan of an underbody (protective) shift boot if you have to do that modification. fwiw
I doubt the majority of mk1 owners have this underbody boot in place anyway. Many never knew there was one there. Usually the original is long gone. Replacements are $40+.
Good luck on finding the tranny you want/need.
Was very wise to do this research First.
BrokeVW.com is a top-flight guy.
Don't hesitate to contact him if you need to, for anything.
-
So, I have easy access for a good price to a 4T and a 4S locally. No FF. No 7A. No 4A. No GP or GY. No ACN. These look like decent options. Would you recommend one over the other for my '82NA? Here are the specs:
CODE R&P 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Overall Flanges Switch Mount
4S 3.94 3.45 1.94 1.29 0.91 0.75 2.96 90mm Large Hole
4T 3.67 3.45 1.94 1.29 0.91 0.75 2.75 90mm Large Stud
Seems like 4T would be better final drive for highway cruising, but would it really be that much of a difference? And then I've heard conflicting info saying 4S was stud mount and sometimes read that it was hole mount.
Thoughts?
-
I would go with the 3.67 ratio 4T. The only downside is it would possibly be a little more sluggish off the bottom. But 1st gear is exceptionally low on these and if you have that problem then there is an excuse for more performance upgrades.
I have an AGS and had a 3.67 installed into it over the 3.94 that was in it. I will let you know how it works in about a week :D
-
The trannys with the 3.00 range final drive cruise smooth in an NA up to around 70 - maybe 75. After that they start buzzing the engine pretty good.
In a TD, to me, they start feeling buzzed around 65-70.
The 2.75 range, is about like adding a 6th gear to the above mentioned final drive range. I'd go for it if you like to cruise above 70 and do right much highway traveling.
FN is another long leg Mk1 tranny code.
-
Yeah, I looked for FF/FN trannies. No luck so far. I'm still a little confused about the stud vs. hole thing. According to brokevw site, MK1 used studs, so my GC uses studs, but I was told the 4S would match my NA and 4T would be for turbo, but the 4S uses holes and the 4T uses studs, so I would think it would be the other way around.
What am I missing?
-
Just maybe some crossed wire info perhaps.
On the Broke site he has a picture of a tranny that has provisions for both mk1 and mk2. I think about all 85 and 86 trannys have provisions for both.
But your 4_ codes are all mk1 i thought.
Probably the ones with holes, have holes in place of the studs - and you would use a bolt/nut. The multi-use trannys are that way also IIRC.
Check out what your 4speed does for the rear tranny mount, and then go check out the 4T.
-
Here's another question:
A2Resource shows my GC as having the White(16 tooth) speedometer gear and being A1 platform. It shows 4S as having teh same, but for A2 platform. 4T is listed as A1 platform, but with Red(15 tooth) speedo gear. Would that be an issue?
-
Okay, i didn't realize they used 4_ codes on up into mk2.
Never encountered that yet physically.
4S 1988-92 = probably no good for you with mk1.
GC = Go Crawl - you'll be glad after doing about any swap.
4T is your ticket, i think.
Just make sure it still has the red gear inside it/with it.
Or you'll have to buy one - and on top of that - you might need the other numbered dash cluster/speedo. Look under the needle on the face of your speedo and see what the little number is ... like 1540 or 1575 iirc.
-
I had to get the red gear ... it is for 3.67 R&P
The white gear is for the 3.89 R&P
I think the green gear is for the 4.20 R&P
-
I believe you are correct based on the info from that A2Resource site. So, it seems an FN would be the most straightforward swap, giving me the same basic gearing as the 4T but with the right speedo gear already there.
-
here yo go
ebay item 380258138107
-
Its a lil tricky kinda .... but won't be hard to make right either way.
There are at least 2 diff mk1 calibrations on speedos.
One is 1540 and one is 1575.
Those numbers pertain to how many revolutions it takes for the odometer to register 1 mile.
So think about this, how could 2 trannys with same final drive parameter - have different speedo drive gears.
And, how could a 3.00 range final drive and 2.75 range final drive share the same speedo gear ?
Its made up with the speedo calibration - which is numbered on the face of the speedo.
Thats my theory and i'm sticking to it. :)
Not new science or knowledge i'm sure, just newer to me.
Never noticed before that there were 2.75 range trannys that didn't all require the red gear.
So i checked some notes.
My 81 and 82 Trucks were both GC 4spd (82 still is). They both have the 1575 speedos. The 81 has had an ACH tranny swap. The speedo registers very very close to accurate - if not right on the button accurate.
The Silver 82 Jetta Dzl i'm parting has FN tranny.
It has 1540 speedo.
Ah Ha.
VW has the math worked out to where they can mix and match speedo gears and speedo calibrations with minimal parts.
I've been thinking about grabbing the FN for my 81 Truck the past few days - probly gonna just do it. Then can use the 1540 speedo from the Jetta - with the white gear. Or my existing 1575 speedo and get a red gear.
I guess thats right .....
-
So I found a 7A in the end. Pretty happy about that. Basically, the same gearing as my GC (almost) through 4th, and then the .71 5th. 4+E if I'm not mistaken. It's got the right mounts and the right speedo gear. Also got the 5-speed linkage that GEE-BEE mentioned. So, I think I'll be pretty set. Will I be able to use the clutch and flywheel, etc., that is currently on my Rabbit, or do I need different stuff? Actually, I think I'm gonna go for a new clutch kit, anyway, so the real question is can I keep the flywheel?
R&P FD
7A 3.94 3.45 1.94 1.29 0.91 0.71 2.80 90mm Large Stud
-
Congrats on getting some good stuff !
If you have a 1575 speedo (you should) - and use a 2.80 final drive - you more than likely will need the red speedo gear. Does your 7A have the red one ?
-
Also got the 5-speed linkage that GEE-BEE mentioned. So, I think I'll be pretty set. Will I be able to use the clutch and flywheel, etc., that is currently on my Rabbit, or do I need different stuff? Actually, I think I'm gonna go for a new clutch kit, anyway, so the real question is can I keep the flywheel?
Holy Frikkn Mackerel !!!
I just checked the auction number that GB posted to see what you got. 380258138107
You got all that for $10 plus shipping ..... omgosh
I just pulled the same stuff from an 82 Jet and charged myself more than that ! Thats about a $75+ retail package.
Great Score
The shifter box and long shaft are different between 4 - 5 speed.
But 4speed can be made to work as 5speed.
The right stuff is always first choice.
And you're good with the existing flywheel/clutch arrangement - unless you just want upgrades.
-
Tadah !
Iam another great find, reminds me of the brand new VW T3 Turbo I scored for 240.00 in the factory box!
Giles got it for a trade for a pump OHC
GB
-
Hello. Allow me to introduce myself. I am a moron. ::)
So, you'll love this. I always assumed I had a 4 speed because, well, I could only shift through 4 gears. Well, today I had the Rabbit up on the lift at my exhaust guy's shop. We were taking a look at things to plan for the 2" upgrade. Well, I was thinking to myself, "Hmmm, wouldn't it be a shame if I actually had a GP and didn't know it?" So, I got out a rag and some elbow grease and finally got all the grime off the bell to see the code. Guess what I have in my Rabbit right this moment... an FN!! :-[ So, the 7A I just bought is basically all moot, since the gearing for the two is exactly the same (well, I'm assuming my FN is one of the later ones with the .71 and not the earlier .76. How would I go about figuring that one out to be sure?)
So, I'm thinking to myself, "Self, you have one of the best 5 speeds you can get...but why can't you engage that gear?" So, here's what I discovered. The only way I can get into 5th is by pressing down on the shifter as if I'm going into reverse and pushing it way out to the side, well beyond where 5th would be and then up. Not the way it should be, for sure. So, I would think there are two possibilities:
1. The linkage is correct but needs some fixing.
2. The PO didn't swap in a 5 speed linkage when they swapped in the FN
Any way to know which is the case just by sight or feel or whatever? Does this shifting issues sound like option "2" from above? Is that what would happen if someone used a 4 speed linkage with a 5 speed gearbox?
I still have that 5 speed linkage off of ebay on its way. I guess I could do the proper swap if necessary. Since the gearing is exactly the same, I'm assuming there's no benefit to using the 7A over the FN (as in one is more reliable or something)?
So, any thoughts on my shifting issue and where to go from here?
Thanks.
p.s.
Awesome 7A for sale! Or I guess I'll just keep it as a spare. 8)
-
That my friend is awesome. I feel normal again. I do some stuff similar to that all the time...well not all the time, but it has been done before ;)
-
oooo....Kayyyyy
were gonna have to frame this one and mount it on the wall !
LoL ... no biggy - spares are good.
And now you don't have to go through pulling the tranny.
If you can get back up under and look at a few things:
the 4speed long rod from shifter to firewall is about strait - or completely strait (memory).
the 5speed long rod has some bends in it.
put shifter in 5th - and look to see if the fork on the bottom of the shifter, where the long rod attaches - is up against the outer perimeter of the shifter box.
from top (with shift boot frame removed) or from the bottom - the 4spd shifter handle is centered in the shifter box - the 5spd is over more to one side.
When your eBay package arrives - you can compare it all - as in everything - and you may find one or more things that aren't swapped over yet either.
Or you may find that everything is spot on, and it was factory FN.
Along with the FN code stamping is a date stamping - like 02032 for example.
And don't tell me the calibration number on your speedo face - i've only tried to drag it out of you 3 times already. :P
damm moron :P
-
Ha! Yes, speedo is 1575. I finally got to check it last night (didn't have my Rabbit back until yesterday)...right before I got pulled over because my parking lights were out and I was driving at night (my fuse blew...en route ::)).
I'll check everything against the new shifter assembly when it arrives and make the other visual checks you mentioned. Thanks for all the tips!
Yeah, it should does save a lot of work have to R&R the tranny. I'm hoping it's a later FN for the super tall gear, but I won't be sad if it's just the early one.
-
dude, the difference between a .71 and .75 is like 35-40 rpms... you will not be able to tell the difference.
-
Is the shifter plate a 5 speed ?
GB
My other CHD just came back from the powder coater ( black)
black forest shipped my peloquin lmtd slip Diff to vwtransaxles
12 pt exterior ARP bolt kit is there
3.67 /.71 FF
-
Is the shifter plate a 5 speed ?
GB
My other CHD just came back from the powder coater ( black)
black forest shipped my peloquin lmtd slip Diff to vwtransaxles
12 pt exterior ARP bolt kit is there
3.67 /.71 FF
my 5 speed worked fine with most of a 4 speed shifter setup.. 4 speed shift plate. altho, i dont know where the shift plate goes, and why its so important, ive never had to swap it..
if you get your adjustments pretty bang on, then you should be able to use your 4 speed setup (most of it) with ease.
-
The shift plate is different from four to five, it allows the shifter to go forward in the rh corner for fifth, some people grind out that notch..
I had the plate # at one time, new was 55.00
MK1autohaus had the boot and shift bearing
I installed all new parts when I did the swap...
GB
-
Well, I'm loving that 5th gear. After a day of practicing, I can get into 5th very easily. Was going about 90mph (per GPS, of course) for a brief time and the engine was revving acceptably. The only thing is when downshifting from 5th, it's hard to go right into 4th. With the clutch in, I have to go into another gear before I can get it into fourth. Upon visual inspection, it looks like I do have a 5 speed (at least the shifter is not centered in the shifter box...it's a little to the left, or towards me). Maybe it just needs a rebuild kit. Definitely need a new clutch though. Mine is toast.
Now I just have to figure out the new rattle. When it came back from body shop, it was rattling enough to shake out a few of my teeth. It has not even a hint of rattle before. Upon closer investigation, I discovered that the bolt that goes through the tranny mount has no nut locking in down. Only the weight of the tranny is keeping the bolt in place. Scary. There's also an extra, large washer sandwiched in there. Not sure if that's acceptable. I'll have to take some pics and post. Wondering if the lack of tightness/compression on the mount is what's allowing for the rattle. Or if it's a bad mount. Or if the body shop messed something up when the straightened and welded a bit of the frame. It really saddens me that one of the quietest Rabbits I've known is now a chatter box. I'm really hoping I can solve this one. I would just go out and get a nut and see about tightening it down, but the bolt is stripped on that end...so I'm gonna need a new bolt and everything. The sad thing is, I could accept the body shop messing up, or not knowing how to fix something...but letting me drive away with a free-floating tranny and not even alerting me to it...not cool. >:( Just plain dangerous and negligent. Well, I'll be having some words with them to say the least.
But I'm still happy about my 5th gear. Where the Rabbit is involved, it's hard not to keep a smile on my face. ;D
-
the nut is contained in the frame for the drivers side trans mount. and that huge washer is rubber.. there should be 2 of them, one on each side of the mount.
and if your frame got straightened, did they re-align the engine?
they probably tweeked the frame back into shape, and the engine mounts didnt like it..
-
Actually, the large washer to which I was referring was a generic metal washer. The body shop but a bunch of extra spacers sandwiched in there. We took them out leaving only what should be stock today, and it seems to have helped a lot. It's still not 100% solved...maybe 90%. It could be a bad mount. But getting rid of the extra bits they shoved in there sure did help.