VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: NintendoKD on May 16, 2010, 10:21:55 pm
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ok, so It is no secret that I am building a frankenmotor to rival that of the finns, however without a transmission I won't go anywhere very fast. I am looking for options for bolt up transmissions that will handle the power of say "spitballing here" 250-300 hp, and a comparable amount of torque, at say 7000 rpms max? As I understand it the tiny 020 won't last at these stresses "just ain't beefy enough" I realize also that a bolt up option may not be readily available as this community focuses on lower powered builds and such a precedent hasn't been set. I am looking for some advice/options as well as any useful criticizm. My machinist has recently had a brian tumor removed and will not be able to resume work on my engine and I will need the expert advice of a driveline shop, or speed shop that can lead me in the right direction when it comes to placing this beast into my 01' MR2Spyder I plan to boost at or around 30-40 lbs.
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The 02A, 02J, and 02M are all robust transmissions that should work pretty well in your application. Particularly the 02M, since it is the newest, and is available in 6-speed FWD configurations. The 1.8T guys make a lot of HP, and I think this transmission is pretty reliable. Another nice thing about these trannies is that they are cable-shift, and it should be easier to retrofit into your MR2 Spyder than the shift rods that the 020 uses.
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any idea where this unobtanium can be obtained from? or how to Identify it in a boneyard. AKA: identifying marks, cars it comes in, etc.
thanks,
Kevin
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I think the 02As first showed up in the VR6 Corrado, and perhaps the VR6 MK3 Jetta. 02Js and 02Ms were in the MK4s.
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TDIs also have 02As.
They can be identified by the cable shift and hydraulic clutch setup
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Corrado G60's also had O2A trannys.
The bellhousings between 4cyl and 6cyl motors are different, so make sure you get it from a 4cyl car. TDI would be better as the gearing makes more sense.
And there are VR6 guys putting more torque/power than you can dream of through an O2A, so don't do anything *too* stupid and it'll keep itself together
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A THM425 74-78 Eldo and Toronado will laugh at your 300/300 all day, and the switch pitch torque converter might play well with a VNT?
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I am more or less looking for: will it bolt up? will it hold up? parts/availability?
cable shift is def the way to go as the tranny in the spyder is originally a cable *** one, and it would make the changeover pretty simple. I will be in the field for another couple of days till sat sometime so if anyone's looking for me that is where I'll be.
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I am more or less looking for: will it bolt up?
If this was a discussion about how to install one of these trannies in a MK1/MK2, and which parts can be reused/swapped over/custom made, then all of this ground has already been covered, many many times, on this and other forums. Since you want this for a completely custom application such as install into your MR2 Spyder, then all you really need to know is, yes, if you get the 4-cylinder specific bellhousing version, it will physically bolt to your 4 cylinder. Everything else (e.g. hydraulic clutch, axles, speedo sensor, brake light switch, transmission mounts, shifter box, etc.) is up to you.
will it hold up?
As RadoTD said, VR6-turbo guys have put north of 500 HP through the 02Ms. HPA put 600 HP through the AWD version of the 02M.
parts/availability?
Since these are a basically new transmissions, you should have no problem finding them close and cheap. Check car-part.com. There should be thousands of them spread across the country.
All of this having been said, are you sure your stock MR2 transmission won't work? What kind of torque levels do they break at? Maybe fix the weak link in that box, whatever it is?
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I thought about using the stock mission, but the guys on the celica forums and mr2 spyder forums strongly advised against it :-[ sorry to be redundant, just trying to get my ducks in a row.
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so even the toyota guys no 020s aren't good for high power? i think 020 is a good reliable transmission, it just isn't a good reliable transmission when it has lots of power going through it. when is this 7k diesel getting built?
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Kevo, my 600,000 mile 1.6 N/a hits 5k daily.. You should be able to do 7k no probs ;) GET ON THIS! I'M EXCITED.
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so even the toyota guys no 020s aren't good for high power? i think 020 is a good reliable transmission, it just isn't a good reliable transmission when it has lots of power going through it. when is this 7k diesel getting built?
If you baby them, 020's seem to take good power, but when you start hammering on the clutch and ripping the shifter through the gears, they fall apart pretty quickly. So... if you drive properly, you need an 02A ;)
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having not driven the car, I can say that I will baby it.....but...... I know that in my heart of hearts that I will drive it like it's stolen once finished. Not all of the time, but I know that I will. I would be foolish not to consider this. To answer the question I plan to have it all finished before I deploy in oct. nov. I am also VERY! excited ;D so for all intents and purposes I will need an 02a and I'll have a driveline shop take up the slack.
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really before I go any farther, I should ask the Jedi Master Giles if the bosch pumps can handle these revs or if there is any way to keep it from self-destructing.
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the rollers start skipping around 7-7.5k rpms. they simply cant go any higher than that. kev, why dont you just fit a inline P pump off a 4 banger cummins or mercedes engine? that would give way more than enough fuel. its not gonna be even remotely close to bolt on and go, but you should be able to make something work if your gonna graft this into a mr2.
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I have a friend with an 02m (6 speed, 2 wheel drive) out of an 03 20th anniversary gti for sale, with shifter box/cables/clutch/everything and is asking 500 I think. Shipping would be the hard part. This is the tougher of all the transmissions listed in this thread.
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the rollers start skipping around 7-7.5k rpms. they simply cant go any higher than that. kev, why dont you just fit a inline P pump off a 4 banger cummins or mercedes engine? that would give way more than enough fuel. its not gonna be even remotely close to bolt on and go, but you should be able to make something work if your gonna graft this into a mr2.
I wonder if stronger springs inside the pump would counteract this, as heavier valve springs would in a head?
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maybe but how would heavier springs affect the initial fueling?
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yeah i came to that thought afterwords... I have no idea, I'm guessing a higher internal pump pressure would be needed?
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the springs are closely matched to the pump head assy. thats why bigger pumps dont run well when people swap in 10 or 11mm heads and use 9mm springs instead of the tougher springs that are set up for the 11mm head.
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I have a friend with an 02m (6 speed, 2 wheel drive) out of an 03 20th anniversary gti for sale, with shifter box/cables/clutch/everything and is asking 500 I think. Shipping would be the hard part. This is the tougher of all the transmissions listed in this thread.
ooh! me want :o PM sent
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and an 02M fits on a diesel bell housing this old?
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it's an 02q out of the next generation car MK5 should bolt up still right? this is also a cable shift tranny and will ork with the cable shift setup of the spyder
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http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4865823-FS-1.8T-02J-Transmission-and-Starter-CHEAP (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4865823-FS-1.8T-02J-Transmission-and-Starter-CHEAP)
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All transverse VW 4-cylinder bolt patterns are the same. 4-speed, 5-speed, and 6-speed. That's all 4-cylinder engines too, 8v, diesel, TDI, 16v, 1.8t, and even the 2.5 5-cylinder.
There are some differences with flywheel mounting and clutch splines but that's easy stuff compared to everything else that's needed with a tranny swap.
Brendan
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i thought the 2.5 was actually different, josh at nls had to do some weird stuff to make it work in the rabbit, he did use an 020 but it wasn't a direct bolt on
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what stuff has to be done to the flywheel tranny spline? I plan to lighten whatever flywheel I use to a rediculous degree so this info in advance would be of tremendous use now.
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you just gotta bolt the appropriate flywheel/clutch/pressure plate on the engine that is particular to that transmission. shouldnt have to modify the input shaft splines at all...
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maybe but how would heavier springs affect the initial fueling?
So you're saying the added force needed to shove the plunger would make the roller cage fight the internal pressure. I think it would but I bet that could be fixed with bumped up internal pressure.
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Yeah, the 2.0/2.4/2.5 inline 5 cyl engines are Audi bolt pattern, not VW 4 banger. What tends to fool people is that there are some gearboxes out there with BOTH bolt patterns (all in Audis I think).
For Nintendo's transverse 4 cyl, you want a TDI trans from a later model MkIV (easiest, plentiful) or if you want to make big power and have lots of gears, a DRW 6 speed - which is already geared to diesel revs. I don't think you will be at 7 grand, but if you are stopping even at 6, gearing of gasser trans won't be that bad (and there are a LOT of them around). Forget the 020: it is very torque/abuse limited as others have pointed out. Also getting harder to support. If you go with a cable shift 02A, there are lots of clutch options, starting with VR6 gasser flywheel/clutch setup (straight bolt in to 5 speeds) to many aftermarket performance setups.
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VR6 flywheel does not bolt to 4cyl, youŽll need 1Z or 2,0 gasser Passat/Corrado flywheel. Clutch will fit to both.
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sweet, good info guys. I plan to have the redline at or about 7k that doesn't mean it actually be just that. I don't really know that much about the transmission side of the house or exactly why and how the diesel tranny differs from the gasser, I can only assume, as the gassers re much higher naturally, that that is the only difference but not sure. This one for sale seems pretty promising but I don't want to end up with a bum transmission for this most auspicious of builds. Everything needs to be perfect, and that is the number one reason why I started this thread. Keep the good advice coming.
Thanks,
Kevin
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why dont you just get a pile of parts together and start building something? think the old school hot rodders had a forum to tell them how to put their cars together? i think not..
you claim you can do anything, so, i wanna see a car start developing here. start building, then drive it. it will be appearent what needs to be upgraded, cause its gonna be whatever breaks first..
you never get to build the car one time, then finish it, then never touch it again, it doesnt work like that. when you own a VW, you work on it damn near every day. sometimes a few times a day.
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when you own a VW, you work on it damn near every day. sometimes a few times a day.
LOL, you got that right. I'm a moron for having 4 of them. :P
Brendan
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Yeah, the 2.0/2.4/2.5 inline 5 cyl engines are Audi bolt pattern, not VW 4 banger.
Just to clarify, I was talking about the new-ish rabbit/Jetta 2.5 that came out in the MkVI- it's a normal 4-cylinder bolt pattern. Getting it to work on a longitudinal dual-bolt patten Audi trans requires trimming of the gearbox bellhousing but that does not apply to FWD.
And, there is no difference between the diesel-specific transmissions and gasser transmissions, other than the gear ratios. They are internally/externally exactly the same.
Brendan
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why dont you just get a pile of parts together and start building something? think the old school hot rodders had a forum to tell them how to put their cars together? i think not..
you claim you can do anything, so, i wanna see a car start developing here. start building, then drive it. it will be appearent what needs to be upgraded, cause its gonna be whatever breaks first..
you never get to build the car one time, then finish it, then never touch it again, it doesnt work like that. when you own a VW, you work on it damn near every day. sometimes a few times a day.
I wholeheartedly disagree, I am not Thomas Edison >:(, nor do I have his resources ::). I want to plan it, do it right, and do it right the first time. 8) My Machinist has brain cancer and will likely never be able to have steady hands again so Now I need a new Machinist on top of every other challenge that I face. Thanks,
Kevin
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Yeah, the 2.0/2.4/2.5 inline 5 cyl engines are Audi bolt pattern, not VW 4 banger.
Just to clarify, I was talking about the new-ish rabbit/Jetta 2.5 that came out in the MkVI- it's a normal 4-cylinder bolt pattern. Getting it to work on a longitudinal dual-bolt patten Audi trans requires trimming of the gearbox bellhousing but that does not apply to FWD.
And, there is no difference between the diesel-specific transmissions and gasser transmissions, other than the gear ratios. They are internally/externally exactly the same.
Brendan
sorry, and thanks for clarifying. My limited knowledge of transmissions had me confused
thanks,
Kevin
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when you own a VW, you work on it damn near every day. sometimes a few times a day.
LOL, you got that right. I'm a moron for having 4 of them. :P
Brendan
the more the merrier!!!
i have a couple 80 (2dr & 4dr), a few 81 (two 2dr & 4dr), an 82, all rabbits, an 85 GTI, 86 Golf, 92 jetta, 96 jetta and an 83 audi.
wow.....
this is the first time ive sat down and realized i own 11 vws.. and only 3 driveable right now.
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the more the merrier!!!
i have a couple 80 (2dr & 4dr), a few 81 (two 2dr & 4dr), an 82, all rabbits, an 85 GTI, 86 Golf, 92 jetta, 96 jetta and an 83 audi.
wow.....
this is the first time ive sat down and realized i own 11 vws.. and only 3 driveable right now.
I have the same thing with vintage bicycles... :P Maybe 3 1/2 rideable out of about 15
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well I bought that one for 600.00 shipped now I just have to repair the small dent in the housing and off I go to th driveline specialists to make a custom driveline. ;D
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Have VW seen the light and stopped using those suicide rivets on the crownwheels? ???
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dunno :-[
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What did you buy?
Also, after talking to brokevw and learning from him, the problem transmissions were the MKII and up 020. The MKI 020 had rivots too, but they were harder than a woodpeckers lips. Brokevw said you don't want to try and drill those out. Afterwards from what I gather the ring gear is held on better.
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it's an 02q out of the next generation car (mk5 instead of mk4). The transmissions are largely the same for your use, here's a link talking about the differences: http://www.sqsracing.com/files/fs_files/productdetails/200/manual-02m-q_55.pdf (http://www.sqsracing.com/files/fs_files/productdetails/200/manual-02m-q_55.pdf)
Here's a link to the for sale thread. He said he'd definitely take 500.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4841340-2007-O2Q-Trans-4cl-6MT-30K-miles-600.00-w-shifter-starter (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4841340-2007-O2Q-Trans-4cl-6MT-30K-miles-600.00-w-shifter-starter)
paid 600 shipped to a buisness address on base