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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: hustonr123 on April 23, 2010, 07:14:29 pm
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Hey everyone I started my 89 mk2 jetta to diesel project last november. I got a used diesel engine from a jy that they said needed a head gasket. Anyways I tore it apart found a blown gasket had the head pressure tested was good so the shop skimmed a few thousands off to true it up. The motor had a three notch head gasket and thats what I replaced it with along with new bolts. From day 1 when I first heard It run the engine had a knocking noise. Over the few past months I been trying fo figure out what the noise was. Ive had the valve cover off a few times checking the hydro lifters found them all to be doing there job so that wasnt the problem. about 2k ago I changed the oil and cut the oil filter open no bearing shavings so looked good and bottom end must be still good. Ive got almost 5k miles on this engine now. But monday when I went out to go to work. It started funny only ran on 3 cyl. Now today I tore into a compression check found number 3 cyl only had 125psi rest 400 to 425. I took the head off to find every intake valve had been touching the piston and 2 & 3 exhaust valves touching also. On cyl 3 the exhaust valve is only touching the seat half way. Must be bent I will update when I get that valve out. Ive checked timing atleast five times within the last few months allways been rate on. I have all the rite tools to do the timing anyways I really dont think a few degrees off cam timing would make the valves touch. I alsp rolled the motor over tonight to make sure the flywheel mark was rite and it is. Number 1 was all the way up with the mark. The motor is a na with turbo added maybe the turbo caused this or the head was skimmed to much that is my ? for you guys. Thanks for any help and sorry for the long post. BTW this is a 1.6 hydro engine
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it is possible that the lifters were bad, and pumping too far up, keeping the valves from closing all the way and mashing into the piston.
that being said, it would run like a bag of rabid weasels if the valves were hanging open, long before the valves actually contacted the pistons.
I would recommend a head rebuild and new lifters at the very least.
-Owen
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it ran like a top no sign of any power loss still just slight miss when warm im sure it will run even better after i figure out this problem
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just dropped the head off to get valves sunk into head a little to compensate for what was token off the head. I hope this will take care of my problems
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it is possible that the lifters were bad, and pumping too far up, keeping the valves from closing all the way and mashing into the piston.
that being said, it would run like a bag of rabid weasels if the valves were hanging open, long before the valves actually contacted the pistons.
I would recommend a head rebuild and new lifters at the very least.
-Owen
I was first thinking it was still a timing issue, but if you used a dial indicator to check TDC of the piston with the flywheel mark, then I'm with Owen in the rebuild the head camp. Part of the rebuild would be to test each valve spring for actual compression force as well as cleaning & inspection of the lifters, at least that's how I was taught.
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the guy said he would reset the lifters by puttin them in a vice then when i started it they would set there self in 1 piston a intake valve put a mark it in the rest of pistons i can see how close they are in the carbon. I trust the guy doin the work he said sinking the valves is only way to fix the head.
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The spec for valve recession is .040 to .060.
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i didn't check mine but doubt it was even close to that i also like to add that my motor has seen 1200+ egt post turbo the first thing i looked for when took the head off was something melted every thing was same as before. there little engines are bullet proof I have been thinkin about adding squirters or doin ceramic coating in the future. I feel doin ether of those now is unnecessary and not as beneficial as what I wants thought.
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somebody help I just put my car all the way back together ran good for about 20min. The same noise came back and back down to running on 3cyl. Its also number 3 cyl again. I made sure b4 I left the place that did the work that he showed me the valve recese. It was between 50 and 55 thousands on every valve. So what can the problem be now. could the lifters be bad to much oil pressure going to them. could the oil pump be junk.
I just put 70 bucks worth of gaskets and bolts I dont want to waste them. this POS is heading to the scrapper.
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I know this is a long shot, but maybe you have a bad injector or delivery valve and the valve imprints were unrelated?
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I just put 70 bucks worth of gaskets and bolts I dont want to waste them. this POS is heading to the scrapper.
Don't do that !! Contact me before you do that. I could use a core to rebuild as a spare for my Caravan.
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can somebody tell me what they think the problem is be smartasses Point me in the rite direction
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did you replace the lifters?
if they are failing, and pumping up too far with oil, it could cause the valve issue.
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Pretty hard to diagnose noises over the internet... what are your compression readings now?
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plan to check compression tonight will post back
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I dont know if every lifter can go bad at once atleast 6 of the 8 valves hit the pistons
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I dont know if every lifter can go bad at once atleast 6 of the 8 valves hit the pistons
This is why I thought it was timing... What did you torque your cam sprocket bolt to after you set your timing ?
Also, I did not see if your head guy tested the compression force of the springs, nor if he took apart / cleaned the lifters. I could see oil contamination / deterioration affecting 3/4 of the hydro lifters all at once (you are sure this is a hydro head ??) There is usually more than one way to fix something :-)
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i didn't torque the cam bolt but it was plenty tight i am sure its hydraulic head wish wasn't at this point
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i didn't torque the cam bolt but it was plenty tight i am sure its hydraulic head wish wasn't at this point
Well, unless you were very lucky, your valve timing is not correct. You really should follow the timing procedure in the Bently on setting the timing - it not only sets the injection pump timing but the valve timing too.
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i have all the correct timing tools what I ment was i didn't use a torque wrench to tighten cam bolt
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where are you in pa
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You cannot correctly set the timing belt and tension without loosening the cam pulley. I'd be surprised if the timing would be out enough to smack valves, but I've never done it, so I don't know how bad it would be. To install the belt, the crank, and IP pulleys are kept still, and the cam is locked, but the cam pulley must be allowed to rotate with the belt. once the belt is lined up and tensioned, then the cam pulley is final torqued.
Might I suggest that when you reinstall, you use a little bit of plasticene or better yet plastigage, on the pistons. Install the head, do the measured torque BUT NOT the angle torques, install timing belt properly, and rotate the engine through at least two full rotations. Remove the timing belt and the head, and check to see how close the valves are to the pistons. Plastigage makes it easy, but you can get a pretty good idea with plasticene.
FWIW, I'd get a replacement set of lifters in there just for peace of mind.
Good luck.
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i loosen the cam bolt every time i just don't torque it to 30 ft pds or whatever the spec is
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McConnellsburg fulton county
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i loosen the cam bolt every time i just don't torque it to 30 ft pds or whatever the spec is
cam timing could have slipped, without a toque wrench it is hard to say if it was tight enough or not.
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I usually go past bentley and torque to 45ft/lbs.
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me too, but without a torque wrench it may have only been 25-30 ft-lbs...
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arent you supposed to torque the cam to 52 ft lbs?
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Ill know in about 20 min if it slipped or not ill post back in a few
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arent you supposed to torque the cam to 52 ft lbs?
spec is 33 ft lbs if I remember right
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put motor on tdc timing is rite on what's next
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put motor on tdc timing is rite on what's next
What if your TDC mark on the flywheel was out? If so, that would explain the hits.
Do the TDC location trick with a valve deliberately dropped, so as to find true TDC.
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Wasn't there something about a gasser flywheel on the diesel engine causing timing issues? (wrong timing marks)
Thought I saw a thread on that....
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I swapped lifters from the gasser motor that was in my car. They made most of the noise go away. It still was missing cracked injector lines loose still number 3 cyl. rechecked compression this is what i came up with 1 415 2 410 3 120 4 420. I ran it a few miles was a really smokey start then ran great under boost. still just as powerfull. When i made it back home motor wasnt missing to bad. still noticable. you guys think a have a valve alittle tweaked from the bad lifters? Should I run it more see if it will work itself out? I dont think I have a ring problem, if all the loss compression was going past the piston wouldnt it be blowing oil everywhere? Guess I could be wrong. prior to my problem motor only used a qt every 1500 miles. Is there anyway to tell if there is a bad valve without ripping the head back off.
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you could do a leakdown test, that would tell you where you are losing compression.
probably a bent valve not seating properly.
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120 psi is likely not going to work itself out... a leakdown test is a good diagnostic but my guess is that the head is coming off sooner or later. :(
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put 75 miles on car today ran pretty good hasnt really missed to much maybe the lifters from the gas motor needed to get adjusted to the differnt valves
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Wasn't there something about a gasser flywheel on the diesel engine causing timing issues? (wrong timing marks)
Thought I saw a thread on that....
I think westcoaster just nailed it. I forgot/missed where you said it was a gasser conversion. The timing marks on the flywheel are NOT the same. If you used the gasser flywheel, your timing mark is offset, possibly by about 3-5 degrees, according to http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38396&sid=78ce26069d327d0fe4c02b0b7a67bc38 (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38396&sid=78ce26069d327d0fe4c02b0b7a67bc38).
Do the valve test to verify TDC, and make a new mark.
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Wasn't there something about a gasser flywheel on the diesel engine causing timing issues? (wrong timing marks)
Thought I saw a thread on that....
I think westcoaster just nailed it. I forgot/missed where you said it was a gasser conversion. The timing marks on the flywheel are NOT the same. If you used the gasser flywheel, your timing mark is offset, possibly by about 3-5 degrees, according to http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38396&sid=78ce26069d327d0fe4c02b0b7a67bc38 (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38396&sid=78ce26069d327d0fe4c02b0b7a67bc38).
Do the valve test to verify TDC, and make a new mark.
Kinda like what I suggested, except there is a TDC mark on a genuine gasser flywheel, in the form of an '0', but the 'l' is at 3 or 6 degrees.
However, setting the cam to the gasser ignition mark would create piston/valve clash from the beginning, or can we just squeeze in 3 degrees?
Skimming head would of course tighten the limits.
How much does a timing belt stretch; creating a delay to the clash?
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so should i move the flywheel mark couple degrees and see if the noise goes away
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No.
You should find top dead center, mark it, and time it to that. You may need another valve in your trouble cylinder.
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it is possible that the lifters were bad, and pumping too far up, keeping the valves from closing all the way and mashing into the piston.
that being said, it would run like a bag of rabid weasels if the valves were hanging open, long before the valves actually contacted the pistons.
I would recommend a head rebuild and new lifters at the very least.
-Owen
I was first thinking it was still a timing issue, but if you used a dial indicator to check TDC of the piston with the flywheel mark, then I'm with Owen in the rebuild the head camp. Part of the rebuild would be to test each valve spring for actual compression force as well as cleaning & inspection of the lifters, at least that's how I was taught.
This was the 4th post to this long thread.... I don't see where it was ever answered by hustonr123. Rather hard to help when we are only getting part of the picture.
Did you use a dial indicator on the #1 pistion to verify the TDC mark you were timing to ???????