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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: TDsamurai on April 12, 2010, 11:16:57 pm
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Ok so i bought a 1.6TD with an adapter kit to bolt it into my suzuki samurai. The Custom flywheel for this adaptor kit appears to have no TDC mark and it can be bolted on in any orientation to the crank. The flywheel has been removed and the engine is on the engine stand. Now i think i got a bit ahead of myself and i started pulling the pulleys off the front of the engine because i am going to be replacing all the seals and putting a new timing belt on it anyways. Now my concern is that i do not have anyway of knowing where top dead center is, or is there some sort of marks on the crank pulley? I have spent the last few hours trying to find something relevant to what i am doing and i cant find anything. So my question is can i find TDC without pulling the head off and using a dial indicator on the piston? Did i just open a huge can of worms? or is there a simple mark on my crank pulley that i didnt see and putting everything back together is gonna be easy?
Everything i have ever worked on has timing marks on the pulleys, and you just line them up and good to go, but then again this is the first diesel ive worked on.
Thanks for the help in advance.
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If this is the first vw diesel you have worked on...
Don't try to reuse the heat sheild under an injector.
Don't pull the wrench away from the head always push toward the head when servicing injectors.
If you ever try a timing belt it is critical to have it perfect or you will bend every valve in the head.
In general if you aren't for sure how the little diesel works you should read and search here. Unless you are independently wealthy and like taking carnage pics ;) These are fairly simple engines that just have little things that are different if you are used to Ford or Chevy stuff in the gas world.
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Libby thanks for the link and i know how to search thank you but for whatever reason when i searched TDC nothing came up at all.
I understand how the engine works, and i have spent countless hours researching over the past 3 days, as well as read the entire faq section.
so i dont think i moved the cam or the crank, just the injection pump pulley which i am taking the injection pump off anyways. If i turn the crank to TDC then i just rotate the cam so the #1 valves are closed? and i also just align the flats on the end of the cam with the head with a locking tool and feeler gauges? i guess i might have a hard time turning the crank if the cam isnt turning though wont i?
The man, What heat shield are you refering to or can i not see it until the injector is removed? and why do you say always push towards the head?
Thanks for the help guys
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For timing the engine, there's no reason to be removing the injectors, but anyhow....
The injector heat shields look like this:
(http://image.autopartsonlinecanada.com/live/thumb/D101013975DPH.JPG)
They cost all of $1.95 and are single use. If you ever pull your injectors for any reason you need to replace these, so don't pull your injectors unless you already have a bunch sitting there. Personally I always order an extra bunch whenever I get parts of any sort, just so I have 'em.
The steel injector body likes to seize up in the aluminum head, partly due to corrosion, often also due to carbon buildup either from leaky heat shields, oil that has leaked in to the threads or whatever else finds its way in. If you look at the aluminum boss the injector is screwed in to, it is VERY thin along the front of the head. Many, many posts on here about "cracked injector bosses" - most of 'em are related to people pulling on a breaker bar AWAY from the head, thereby putting all the stress on that tiny little aluminum boss. SNAP.
To avoid carnage, push the bar TOWARDS the head, so the stress is put on the meat of the head instead. Also the junk that collects in the threads can ball up as you remove the injectors until IT puts enough pressure on the boss to crack it. Only way to avoid that is to be really slow and easy on the injectors and treat it like a tap - give it lots of oil (liquid wrench, PB Blaster, etc), give it some time to soak, crank it 1/2 turn loose, 1/4 turn tight, 1/2 turn loose, 1/4 turn tight until it's coming out smooth and easy.
Anti-seize on reinstallation is highly recommended - I think the copper type is the best but I just use the grey stuff and haven't had any issues.
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Awesome info thanks.
If the injector doesnt need to be removed would you mind sharing my other options? thanks
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i guess i might have a hard time turning the crank if the cam isnt turning though wont i?
STOP !!! Do not turn that crank nor cam unless they are in alignment with each other (cam belt still installed correctly) , or as Andrew said, you will bend valves and possibly break the valve guides... If you have already removed the injection pump or timing belt, I would not do anything until you pulled the head to get TDC with a dial-indicator on a piston crown - then you can install the flywheel and make your own TDC mark on the flywheel, and then you can follow the cam timing threads and IP installation guides.
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Pulling the head is not necessary. You can loosen the cam bearing caps so no valves are open and turn the crank however you please and no piston valve contact will occur. That's how I always do it when I want to get to TDC with the head on and timing belt off. You can then rotate the cam (caps still loosened) and lay it down with the lobes up for #1 and the bar inserted at the back. Don't loosen or do final torque on the cam with the bar installed. Use a pulley holder.
At least one injector will need to be removed to use the dial indicator to find TDC. Bear in mind that pistons 1 and 4 move together so TDC is the same for either one (cam determines which is at which stroke). I mention this because it might be easier to use #4, but neither one is difficult. Yes, replace the heat shield and certainly use the appropriate precautions when loosening or toqueing the injectors to avoid cracking the head.
How true, if you are going to pull the injector(s) then pulling the head is not needed. I like pulling the head on an engine new to me to check the condition of the piston crowns, valves, and head (cups and cracks between the valves) - but that is just me.
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yea i figured loosening the cam would be my best bet. i dont want to pull the head because i dont have enough money for a new gasket yet and i am not one to reuse a headgasket. I will be doing a steel headgasket upgrade and arp head studs after i get the engine in and running properly and after i do my custom suspension. If i loosen the cam bearings, when i torque them back down will i need to do a retorque after i drive it for a bit or is there any other concerns? When you say do not use the bar to torque the cam you mean the cam pulley not the cam bearings right, if i am not mistaken there will be no load on the bar when tightening the bearings, that is if we are talking about the same bar. If i am going to remove an injector should i just remove all of them and rebuild them while i am in there? if so, what is the cost for injector rebuild kits and how difficult is the rebuild to perform?
I am actually kinda glad i did this it, i think i am going to learn alot about this engine over the next couple weeks.
I am still curious as to why VanbcGuy said it isnt necessary to remove an injector.
Thanks for the response everyone.
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If i loosen the cam bearings, when i torque them back down will i need to do a retorque after i drive it for a bit or is there any other concerns?
no
When you say do not use the bar to torque the cam you mean the cam pulley not the cam bearings right
that is correct. Don't try to tighten or loosen the cam sprocket with the TDC tool in the back. Some have used a cresent wrench on the lobe, I personally have held the sprocket by hand, others have a special tool to hold it too.
If i am going to remove an injector should i just remove all of them and rebuild them while i am in there? if so, what is the cost for injector rebuild kits and how difficult is the rebuild to perform?
This isn't an easy answer. You can rebuild one, but it may or not be fine afterwards. You need to have a pop tester to rebuild these properly.
I am still curious as to why VanbcGuy said it isnt necessary to remove an injector.
It normally isn't as you have TDC on the flywheel.
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One easy way to find TDC is to set the cam so you've got a valve open on cyl #1. Turn the crank by hand slowly till you feel the piston make contact (if you pull the glowplugs you'll find this much easier as you're not fighting compression). Mark that spot on the flywheel. Now turn the crank the opposite direction slowly until you make contact again. Mark that position on the flywheel. True TDC is EXACTLY between your two marks.
No need to pull anything!
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One easy way to find TDC is to set the cam so you've got a valve open on cyl #1. Turn the crank by hand slowly till you feel the piston make contact (if you pull the glowplugs you'll find this much easier as you're not fighting compression). Mark that spot on the flywheel. Now turn the crank the opposite direction slowly until you make contact again. Mark that position on the flywheel. True TDC is EXACTLY between your two marks.
No need to pull anything!
That is the way to do it!
Re injector removal:
I never push towards the engine when undoing/doing up injectors. I cannot see 'much' difference in levering the bottom of the injector outwards and the top outwards. Better is to align all pushes and pulls along length of engine. Best is to use a 'T' bar and push and pull at the same time, and so give turning moment only ;D
Whilst running a series of tests with injectors reuse shields by using a set of Mole grips , a 19mm nut and a 3/8" ball bearing. The mole grips can be set to give a 'metered' clamp, and reset the distortion of the heatshield. ;)
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yea i understand the one valve open idea but you seem to be forgetting i dont have a timing belt on it, and although i dont think i moved the cam or crank pulley i was tapping on the cam pulley trying to get the pulley off and i am not certain that it is in the same position.
And i see absolutely no reason to reuse a part that only costs $2
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you seem to be forgetting i dont have a timing belt on it
Nope... actually, the method described (using a valve as a depth marker) works best with no timing belt installed.
It's also more accurate than just sticking a probe down an injector hole looking for the piston to top out... since the crank can move quite a few degrees at TDC with no appreciable movement of the piston.
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Who's kit did you get to swap into the samurai?
I have the acme kit and the timing marks are on the flywheel.
At $45 each injector it isn't much to send them off and have them rebuilt by Giles. At least then you know an important component is done right (pop tested and balanced for the set)
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i think for now i will leave the injectors alone.
ok i didnt read that method close enough, now how will i determine whether the valve is fully open or fully closed. Actually i guess that doesn't really matter does it?
I have the acme kit, i didnt buy it direct it is used so there is a bit of surface rust from it sitting around with the PO. After a closer look there is a timing mark on the flywheel and i thought the flywheel could bolt on in any orientation but i now realize that the bolt holes are not in a perfect array. However i dont see anything to align the timing mark on the flywheel with, i thought it was to be aligned with marks on an inspection hole on the bell housing?
Bare with me please i tried to get a haynes manual but apparently they dont even make them, and i cannot find a manual locally so if anyone knows what manual to get that would be great.
I like the sound of that valve method since i don't want to remove my injectors.
Im glad i posted this question, it seems to be getting easier with every response.
Now on another note, a friend of mine told me that the big plastic gismo by my turbo is a safety BOV and that it is set at 10psi and i wont need it, i made a billet block off plate today, i just want to know what everyone else is doing with theirs.
I greatly appreciate the response everyone.
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after thought,
being that the engine is IDI i cannot contact the piston with the dial indicator through an injector hole can i?
and will it be accurate enough if i mark at each valve contact then center it? if im out by 1 notch on the timing belt the piston and valves will interfere will they not?
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i think for now i will leave the injectors alone.
ok i didnt read that method close enough, now how will i determine whether the valve is fully open or fully closed. Actually i guess that doesn't really matter does it?
I have the acme kit, i didnt buy it direct it is used so there is a bit of surface rust from it sitting around with the PO. After a closer look there is a timing mark on the flywheel and i thought the flywheel could bolt on in any orientation but i now realize that the bolt holes are not in a perfect array. However i dont see anything to align the timing mark on the flywheel with, i thought it was to be aligned with marks on an inspection hole on the bell housing?
Bare with me please i tried to get a haynes manual but apparently they dont even make them, and i cannot find a manual locally so if anyone knows what manual to get that would be great.
I like the sound of that valve method since i don't want to remove my injectors.
Im glad i posted this question, it seems to be getting easier with every response.
Now on another note, a friend of mine told me that the big plastic gismo by my turbo is a safety BOV and that it is set at 10psi and i wont need it, i made a billet block off plate today, i just want to know what everyone else is doing with theirs.
I greatly appreciate the response everyone.
I didn't buy my Acme kit direct either. One day I posted up on Zuwharri.com (in the suzuki diesel section) tongue in cheek about tech support. The reply floored me! Not only do I get tech support but I get the full waranty that the origional purchaser got.... (Jeff will provide tech support no matter who made the kit!)
Jeff snail mailed me a set of instructions and a rubber turbo oil return line with clamps no charge to me. (your results may vary... :))
He will ask about the kit "serial number" there may be something in paint marker on the back of the flywheel and/or on the adapter plate.
On your flywheel there are the origional suzuki factory timing marks. Ignore those.... Elsewhere on the flywheel there is a knotch. looks like someone took a hacksaw to the edge (machined much better than that though) Attach the samurai tranny, and line that knotch up with the timing mark on the tranny (inspection hole). There is your TDC...
Yes, the flywheel only goes on one way if you put all the bolts in...
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i have already contacted jeff and installation instructions are on the way, i am definately pleased with the customer support and he has already answered many of my questions.
my transmission is still in the samurai with the factory engine bolted to it... i dont have a spare trans, and i do not plan on taking the transmission out for a month or 2.
i think i will try the valve contact method, and then if the engine turns over after its timed then there shouldnt be an issue. Another option i am considering is dialing off of the bottom of the piston since i am going to pull the pan off anyways to install a windage tray/gasket and check if i have the piston squirters.
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Where abouts are you located?
For some of those VW parts you don't trust Canadian tire for...
http://www.vmautohaus.com/ (http://www.vmautohaus.com/)
Mail order buisness as well as walk in. (I walk in since I'm usually in the area)
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im on vancouver island, i havent really seen any need to get parts from anywhere other than lordco so far. Ive been very impressed with cost effectiveness of this build, then again i get a stupid good discount and i only talk to one salesman because from my experience the rest of them are idiots. I already have every seal and gasket i could possibly need on order. and i am hoping to have the engine cleaned painted and reassembled with a few new gaskets and seals by the end of the weekend and possibly even begin the engine swap.
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yea i understand the one valve open idea but you seem to be forgetting i dont have a timing belt on it, and although i dont think i moved the cam or crank pulley i was tapping on the cam pulley trying to get the pulley off and i am not certain that it is in the same position.
And i see absolutely no reason to reuse a part that only costs $2
As Vincent says, easier without timing belt, but doable with cam pulley slack.
Re $2 quip... I'll give you my reasons for reuse:
1) New ones just may not be to hand.
2) If you've ever looked closely at a heatshield, you'll see there are machined ridges on the underneath that are as individual as a fingerprint. Each time a new shield is put in place , it cuts a new furrow in the limited flesh of the head seat. This may be a source of various future problems with carbon and burning away.
3) The injector also grinds a sealing surface into the heatshield. If shield given a 'metered' reset first, subsequent sealing can improve, at least for one or two reuses IMO.
I never have to torque my injectors upto and beyond the official level, to get them to seal, which can also distort the head seating, if leaks are due to a rogue heatshield
4) As my car cost $60 3 years ago, $8 is 1/15 of car cost and not insignificant ;D
Here in Limeyland they can cost as much as $4 each :'(
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I wont be even removing the injectors if i can avoid it, thanks for your input but i still think i would take my chances with some fresh pieces.
I would like to know if anyone has successfully used the valve contact method without issue? it just seems too easy and the last thing i want is to ruin my new engine.
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I wont be even removing the injectors if i can avoid it, thanks for your input but i still think i would take my chances with some fresh pieces.
I would like to know if anyone has successfully used the valve contact method without issue? it just seems too easy and the last thing i want is to ruin my new engine.
For what it's worth, I have done so on my Quantum, and on a FIAT 1.9TD, as in both instances the true mark had faded into a shadow that was barely discernible and possibly just a blemish.
If you think about it, at TDC the flywheel moves at it's fastest compared with the piston [and BDC] Dropping a valve means that the flywheel has slowed down compared with the piston travel. As it is the same valve in exactly the same position, but blocking the same piston from either end of the flywheel travel, even with worn out shells, the accuracy will remain constant, and the measured midpoint wil be more accurate than a vernier gauge. The only error is the size of your paintbrush splodges. ;D
RE heatshields, look up 'Sharkey', I think he was advocating up to 10 x reuse :o. Now I think that may be a little excessive ;D
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so i attempted to do the timing with the method of touching the pistons to the valve... didnt work, i went back and forth marked exactly center between the 2 marks using vernier calipers, then set the cam with a flat file that i used feeler guages to line it up and i locked out the IP and it just wouldnt do it. so i think the second easiest way for me to do this is to mount it in the truck and find TDC with the flywheel on my tranny. It would be nice to do it on the engine stand but i guess you win some you lose some.
Any other ideas?
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What do you mean "it just wouldn't do it"?
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valves hit the pistons and i couldnt turn it all the way over. I think i am just going to mount the engine tomorrow and use the flywheel to align the marks, it would have been nice if i could do the timing on the engine stand but it doesnt seem to be working out.
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Well there's definitely something wrong with your process then!!
Can you describe exactly what you've done after finding TDC?
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i used a flat file, with matching feeler gauges on each end to lock out the cam, and i used an 11mm 1/4 drive socket to lock out the IP. I think the issue was finding TDC itself. To find TDC i put the intake valve open on cyl #1 rotated until it stopped and marked the crank pulley with the lower timing cover, i used the pulley because the flywheel isn't on it. I then rotated in the opposite direction until it stopped and marked the pulley with the same mark on the timing cover, I then used vernier calipers to find exactly between the 2, set the timing up and it wouldnt turn over all the way. If i think about it the mark between the two valve contacts would not be TDC because if i can travel between the 2 valve contact points with the valve open then it must not be getting to TDC. Maybe i was 180 out??