VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => General => Topic started by: zukgod1 on April 04, 2010, 09:21:21 am
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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2936829#post2936829 (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2936829#post2936829)
I was going to post up the link in the TDI section but I wanted everyone to see it.
I don't know if you have to be a member to see the pics (I hope not) if you cant see them hit me up and I'll build a thread over here.
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thats just a fogger right? so it just runs on a little CNG, not solely right?
ive heard someone tell me about using LPG or CNG on a diesel before, but running it through the injectors and injection pump. and its ran as a liquid. or was someone just telling me about some hair brained idea they had?
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Ya it's a fogger.
I'm injecting it pre turbo. The gas is changed from high pressure to low pressure just before the intake.
It uses a stepper motor/valve to regulate the gas. Uses the crank position sensor and TPS to adjust..
It's a fully programmable system via lap top program.
I would actually like to discuss the kit/ conversion on this board over the TDI board. There is maybe 10 guys over there that aren't conceded and those guys are on this board as well.
I'll post up some pics hang tight.
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(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100312083348.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100222145012.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100302135652.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100222145051.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100403181700.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100315193501.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100402133136.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100403181627.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100403181635.jpg)
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(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100404114540.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100404114519.jpg)
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does it have any sort of limiter? like does it look at the EGts to see when stuff is too hot and it should probably inject less? or is it one of those things you could burn your engine down with if you were not careful?
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Gauges will be here this week so I cant answer that just yet.
I wanted to have them installed before I got the kit installed but those damn things are spendy!
It will be limited via programing. And as stated it uses the TPS and crank position sensor to regulate the gas so once it's set up I'll be covered.
It has a fail safe if the TPS and crank sensor dont jive along with leaks. It just turns the system off.
Of course I can turn it off manually as well and the tanks have electric valves and default in the off position as well.
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How many years supply of CNG is that? :o
How long have you had it installed for?
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so CNG is better then propane injection? I've heard good and bad about propane, mostly that as a booster NO2 is still better, with less issues with runaway.
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How many years supply of CNG is that? :o
How long have you had it installed for?
just finished it yesterday Tyler.
2 tanks @ 3 gal each.. Dont know how long it will last yet.
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so CNG is better then propane injection? I've heard good and bad about propane, mostly that as a booster NO2 is still better, with less issues with runaway.
Better? Cant say don't have and haven't had propane injection. I believe this kit can be used with either fuel though.
The power it adds is AMAZING for sure and that's why I added it. I should get a considerable fuel savings as well so that is just an added bonus.
I dont see how you could get a runaway with this system as it's fully computer controlled and uses engine sensors to regulate the gas.
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propane/CNG works wonders on DI motors, really surprising how well it works.
if only there was something as cheap to put in our little IDI's that had a similar effect...
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propane/CNG works wonders on DI motors, really surprising how well it works.
if only there was something as cheap to put in our little IDI's that had a similar effect...
There is no reason this system couldn't be used in a idi engine, I wouldn't run it on a NA engine but a TD engine sure.
It's compressed with the air so bam would happen...
Regulating it could be fun without electronics though, may have to add a TPS on the IP for the system to read.
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I'm pretty excited about this system, REALLY looking forward to having it fully tuned so I can get it tested at the emissions station to see what's coming out the butt.
If I get the chance putting it on the rollers would be nice as well to actually get an accurate measurement on the HP/TQ #'s.
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IDI motors do not like the way that CNG/propane burns, it has a tendency to push out prechambers.
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I wouldn't run it on a NA engine but a TD engine sure.
Why not?
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Mainly because of the lack of performance on a NA engine. If you could regulate it properly I don't see why you couldn't but I don't think there would be enough gain to justify it..
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Wow thats really cool. Always wondered how it would work in a diesel. Is this basically the same set up as a gas/cng conversion?
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Wow thats really cool. Always wondered how it would work in a diesel. Is this basically the same set up as a gas/cng conversion?
Very similar, less things required on a diesel conversion though. Only uses the TPS and CPS the rest is all programing.
On a Gasser conversion it uses the above along with O2 sensor, injector emulators, MAP sensor modules and so forth.
Some of the Gasser kits use individual injectors for the CNG, we actually have to drill the intake manifold for the new injectors which are really only nipples screwed in, the injector is remote mounted somewhere else.
Filled it up this morning, took a whopping $4.85..
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I plan to go injected when I go propane in the Bug, simply because I'm m-squirt it and have a switch for the injectors, gas or LPG, and use the same ECU. :D
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that sounds like it just may work..
I did some more tuning yesterday and am having issues getting the stepper motor to open higher at freeway speeds.. There is a step in the programing I"m not familiar with just yet so when I figure that part out should be right where I want it..
So far I've traveled 180 miles on less than 1/4 tank of diesel and one LED light on the CNG gauge.. Dont really know how much I'm using until it's fill up time then I should be able to figure out what ratio I'm running at..
If I have a MPG read out in the cluster (or a Scanguage) it would be easier to tune as I could just watch the MPG change to figure out where I am but till then
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Updates?
You pretty much have me convinced to go CNG
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updates please ;D
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Sorry guys, been mega busy. We are expecting a baby sso we are switching the lids from room to room so the baby will have a room close to us.
I dove all week 60+ miles a day and used 1/8 a tank of fuel.. filled the CNG tanks and it took 4 gallons $4.00.
I'm not going to fill the diesel tank till it's empty, bets on how long it's going to take? I dont think I rest my trip meter so I can see how far I gt out of the diesel with the CNG supplement.
The power if just a blast!!!
I still have some programming changes to make, for some reason I cant get the stepper motor to open slowly. It opens to full open as soon as the system is activated which is currently set to .8 volts from the TPS and 1200 rpms. I can control the speed it closes but the opening speed is giving me fits. The way its working now if I'm taking off fast/ adding lots of diesel it just lites the front tires like nothing and smokes like a freight train. If I take off slowly it drives fine but if I could adjust the opening speed better (read at all) I could control the smoke levels better.
I have it set so when I hit the cruise control to open the valve to a setting of 375 ( have from 0 to 500).
Just FUN to drive now. When I first got the car it had 129k on it with the stock nozels in it still, just had the timing belt done and new valves as the previous owner neglected the timing belt.
The "Diesel Repair shop" didnt set the timing so it was set at -4.0 AFTD.. It still drove pretty good and would take off pretty good (torque), after an AFE intake, muffler ectomy and setting the timing to 2.6-2.8 BTDC it drove much better. Add in some .216 nozzles and holy crap it was WAY fun now!!
Adding the CNG kit was like all the above mods 2 more times and all at once. ;D
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How far away is the local dyno place?
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How far away is the local dyno place?
45min to a hour maybe..
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Jesus...
sounds like cars should come from the factory like this?
What kind of mileage would a 2 cyl TD smart car get if it ran CNG?
im actually super stoked to see your dyno/mileage reports.
My next car is likely going to be something non-vw with a TDI in it. I'd love to do the same.
All sorts of injection hahah NO2, CNG & water.
I noticed you said on the other forum you had a small CNG leak, did it stink the car to high heavens with rotten eggs?!
Also, where do you go to fill the tanks? You know, it wouldn't be a far stretch to tap into your houses natural gas line - but then i guess it wouldn't be at a high enough pressure would it? it also might be extremely illegal. but seriously, where do you get the tanks filled?
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Jesus...
sounds like cars should come from the factory like this?
What kind of mileage would a 2 cyl TD smart car get if it ran CNG?
im actually super stoked to see your dyno/mileage reports.
My next car is likely going to be something non-vw with a TDI in it. I'd love to do the same.
All sorts of injection hahah NO2, CNG & water.
I noticed you said on the other forum you had a small CNG leak, did it stink the car to high heavens with rotten eggs?!
Also, where do you go to fill the tanks? You know, it wouldn't be a far stretch to tap into your houses natural gas line - but then i guess it wouldn't be at a high enough pressure would it? it also might be extremely illegal. but seriously, where do you get the tanks filled?
Leak; Everything is vented outside the car so I will never smell the CNG in the car if there is a leak in the future.
Filling; Utah has lots of filling stations. There are 4 between work and my house. The have home filling stations available and I would love to get a home fill station but the cost is just too damn high. $3k and up for one and where I can fill easily from a public station it's just not practical.
And yes the pressure at the house isn't enough thus the fill station is required :(
Dyno; I dont really see me putting it on a dyno to prove I have more power. I can feel it and this is for me.. If the dyno was free I would do it but I'm not paying to get a piece of paper showing the increase. I'll race a couple buddies that beat me before the conversion though ;D
Fuel logs; As I already keep track of my mileage I'll post these up. Thus far I've drove over 300 miles on a quarter tank of fuel (as per the gauge). Once the diesel gets down to my usual refilling level I fill it up and do some figuring..
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okay well if your tank was 55 litres... 1/4 of that going 300 miles is like 82mpg of diesel minus the natural gas which you got for $1.33/gallon pretty much right?
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Natural gas is $0.93 pr gal here 8)
$1.00 at the expensive places.
My goal is to have it tuned so at freeway speeds I'm running 80+% CNG and 20% +/- Diesel.
It's takes quite a bit of time to get it where it needs to be when the only real tuning time I get is on the way home and back to work.
Have to be REALLY careful, this is worse than texting and driving.
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I think an update is required...
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I think an update is required...
ditto
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Oh hell..
Well I experienced a catastrophic failure.. I do NOT believe it was linked with the CNG although the CNG may have accelerated the problem.
The timing belt broke on the previous owner, there were valve impacts on cyl #2 and #4. Well cyl #2 and #4 are now broken and cyl #3 has been beat up pretty good.
I have a big expensive pile of parts on the way to reassemble it.
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Not good pictures sorry..
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100514191419.jpg)
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(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/zukgod1/MK4/CameraZOOM-20100514191401.jpg)
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Yikes. What do you figure happened?
It looks like you should get your injectors checked based on that last picture
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Those are "SMACK" marks from the piston getting beat up but a piece if it's self Tyler.
Thats a really bad pic but look close, to the right of the chamber from 3 down to about 5 o-clock, that piece is MIA and is the cause of what you are seeing.
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OHHHH.
Ouch.
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A bit hard to be sure, but I see both smack marks and a horrific amount of piston erosion??
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Thats too bad. :( Was really looking forward to results. What plans do you have now?
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What do you think caused the problem? How do you think CNG accelerated the problem? I was all gung-ho to do this on my truck but I'm a bit hesitant now.
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It may have been a time bomb anyway when you bought it.
If it was a "patch it up cheap as you can, and i'll sell it quick" kinda thing.
On something like that - any power increase would have accelerated failure. May have even been part of why it was "de-tuned" when you bought it.
Just thinking outloud.
Good wishes on the next round.
Sounds like you need a designated driver to wheel it while you tune it - don't run over top of a school teacher in her Prius out there.