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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: NintendoKD on March 28, 2010, 04:10:55 am
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so I have compiled some useful information for those seeking the illusive vnt turbo
03G253014H
03G253019A from a 2006, 140 hp unit
I am looking for
454232-0006 038253019D 156 hp
and
454232-0002 038253019D 156 hp
454231-0002 028145702R 156hp
454231-0006 028145702HV445 156 hp
721021-5006 is the vnt 17, or gt1749vb
obviously the gt1749 is a largely/widely used trbo found on many vehicles in europe, however it should be noted that the gt1749v, va, and vb are worlds different the vb being the one rated for the most boost. I believe that this is for the reason that it has a titanium compressor wheel. I will mate the exhaust side of the gt1749vc from a newer tdi onto a vnt 22 to give bigger boost at a reasonable rpm range, and will tie the actuator to the gas pedal and do a nice gov mod to give the best results. Now, if I can only find a bolt on tranny with the kahunas to handle all of this power.
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i dont think anything is going to be plug and play how you want to build it.
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There certainly is going to have to be modification, at least on the compressor side. I will have to have it machined to accept the larger housing for sure. To reach my goal of 35-40 psi, I will need a turbo that is well equiped to do so. This looks like the ticket. the 17 by itself can handle 170 BHP and with the combined efforts of the 22 I am sure it will push it well over the 220 BHP mark, or possibly greater. I won't drive it like a maniac everyday, I do want the fun to last a while of course, but that is why I'm spending so much on this build. If I am going o build a frankenmotor, I have to do it right, and use it to the fullest ability. At least that is the way that I see it. The vnt is definitely the way to go. I have looked at other routes, but this is by far the best way that I can see of reaching my goal. With a little luck and hard work, this vnt will be the heart of my powerhouse, and will be by far the most expensive part. I have found the turbos that I need, just a matter of buying them from europe.
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The VC will not fit. The VA will not give enough for what you want. The VB will boost very well. Another option is the hybrid 1722. Stepping it up a notch would be something like a gt2052v. The VB, 1722, and the gt2052v or gt2056v will boost early and hard enough to risk rods. The 52 may be a bit better then the 56 lower in the rpm range. The 56 may go into surge if the rpms are not high enough. All are modern and worlds ahead of the k24 and t3.
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and will tie the actuator to the gas pedal and do a nice gov mod to give the best results.
So the vanes will close or open when you floor it?
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from my understanding, the vanes wil be on a direct control from the throttle, and will open all of the way when it is floored all of the way. They will be on a spring loaded actuator arm, and will remain closed for the low end portion of the rev range, and be completely open for the top end....... or perhps I have that backwards, when I see it in action I'll better understand it. ;) I am also well aware of the fact that these engines do not like low end boost, and was under the impression that this would be the best route to go. I must ask, why is the vc no good? Good advice so far, the object here was to get a 1722 hybrid, buy both and squeeze them for the parts to make it, as opposed to spending close to two grand for one. I have a friend that owns a turbo rebuild shop and he can help me with the rebuild/hybridization. will the 1722 be enough to push 40 reliably?
so the questions are
1. my vc combined with a vnt22 from a 330d will not work, and why?
2.is the vc no good and why?
3. will the hybrid vnt push 40 pounds reliably? "don't want it to blow up and get sucked into my increasingly expensive engine.
4.would have to be, for the money "as in it not being an object" which is the best turbo's available for what I want to achieve, I want to push 40 pounds reliably, and not overdue the low end boost., preferrably I want to go the vnt route. And I have a fully built frankenengine aaz head. I will also be using an pd150 intake, unless there is a better flowing one ;D
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I dont really know how helpful I'm going to be in this post... but...
You can only get so far by throwing money at something. From most of your recent posts in various threads, I get the impression that you are dead keen to build a huge power IDI, and not afraid to spenssome coin to do so - ok, fine. But - it also seem as though you havnt really planned anything through properly, because you appear to be changing your mind quite often.
For the most part, tuning VW IDI diesels has been the realm of the cash strapped eco-concious car nut, and there arent all that many of us. As such, almost all of the time, modifications are made on a seriously tight budget. So, althouth there are some wonderfully ingenious VNT actuator solutions around this forum, and great knowledge - nobody has likely gone to the kind of extreme that you seem to want to do.
I would however direct you to this thread : http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=27400 (http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=27400)
And perhaps suggest that you might do some serious digging on TDI forums in order to gain some more knowledge on VNT's.
The other thing is that you really are a guinea pig yourself, in a sense, and you will be experiementing, (hopefully) to the future aid of the rest of us here. So , whichever rout you decide to take, please do a nice writeup so we can all learn from you.
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from my understanding, the vanes wil be on a direct control from the throttle, and will open all of the way when it is floored all of the way. They will be on a spring loaded actuator arm, and will remain closed for the low end portion of the rev range, and be completely open for the top end....... or perhps I have that backwards, when I see it in action I'll better understand it. ;) I am also well aware of the fact that these engines do not like low end boost, and was under the impression that this would be the best route to go. I must ask, why is the vc no good? Good advice so far, the object here was to get a 1722 hybrid, buy both and squeeze them for the parts to make it, as opposed to spending close to two grand for one. I have a friend that owns a turbo rebuild shop and he can help me with the rebuild/hybridization. will the 1722 be enough to push 40 reliably?
so the questions are
1. my vc combined with a vnt22 from a 330d will not work, and why?
2.is the vc no good and why?
3. will the hybrid vnt push 40 pounds reliably? "don't want it to blow up and get sucked into my increasingly expensive engine.
4.would have to be, for the money "as in it not being an object" which is the best turbo's available for what I want to achieve, I want to push 40 pounds reliably, and not overdue the low end boost., preferrably I want to go the vnt route. And I have a fully built frankenengine aaz head. I will also be using an pd150 intake, unless there is a better flowing one ;D
I remember reading a while back about mounting differences between the vb and the vc. I will try and find the link. As far as planning goes. You seem to be there as far as the log block goes. All the additional planning is the fine tuning to make use of the powerplant. Turbo selction if not stock, requires lots of research and help from real turbo guys from a turbo shop. One of the harder aspects of the selection is that we do not know what one of these franken units flow for air accross a given rpm range. Dr.Diesel ran into the same questions on one of his builds. Forget about the horsepower number for now, you need to gathering turbo maps of all the units you are looking at. Compressor and turbine. Get some help reading them and have someone help you plot points on the map accross the rpm range. This is where you need to know what your engine will spin up to and how much fuel you will still have available in that rpm range. GIles has said that his pumps are set up differently for vnt vs standard turbo's. SO put down the wrench, gather intel, plot your points and fire for effect.
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anyone volunteer, map reading classes anyone??? 8)if it is just a matter of fitment, then the vc should not be any issue, but that is only in the event of angular problems. I can make an adapter flange myself with no issues. If it is a matter of another magnitude, I need to know now before I make a mistake, and purchase one "I almost did"
thanks,
Kevin
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from my understanding, the vanes wil be on a direct control from the throttle, and will open all of the way when it is floored all of the way. They will be on a spring loaded actuator arm, and will remain closed for the low end portion of the rev range, and be completely open for the top end.......
If the vanes close every time you let off the go pedal you'll most likely get huge spikes after doing high power/boost and then chop pedal.
Best is something that leaves the vanes opened until you need boost then they close when you floor it and as boost comes up the vanes open as needed to avoid overboosting and when you let off completely the vanes snap open.
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Nothing of the sort is needed. Spikes only occur if your system is poorly designed.
Having the vanes open all the time is just promoting carbon buildup. Every single OEM application keeps the vanes closed all the time until desired boost is reached.
If your vanes ever reach 100% open at any boost/load, your turbine is too small.
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I had it backwards, I thought so. For the record, I don't go wishy washy ::), I only move from one good idea to a better one ;). I want to combine the best that is out there to show what is truly achievable.
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Nothing of the sort is needed. Spikes only occur if your system is poorly designed.
Having the vanes open all the time is just promoting carbon buildup. Every single OEM application keeps the vanes closed all the time until desired boost is reached.
If your vanes ever reach 100% open at any boost/load, your turbine is too small.
carbon buildup causes premature vane failure, or so I'm told. so does the vc have fitment issues or not? and how? is it a flange adaptation solvable issue? ??? I guess that I did have it right the whole time, I looked at it in my minds eye, and it made sense that way, the idea of having a "fully functional" vnt is that you don't need to worry about spikes, or BOV's or wastegating at all, am I incorrect?
thanks for making me the "guinea pig" *oinks*
Kevin
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If you set the vanes to close and stay closed when you mash the pedal you'll get crazy high boost, very high exhaust manifold pressure and your turbo won't last as long as you'd like.
So you gotta come up with a way for the turbo to only make as much boost as you need for the amount of fuel being injected.......
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carbon buildup causes premature vane failure
It doesn't cause failure of the vanes, it makes the control system unable to do its job (slow response or sticking).
the idea of having a "fully functional" vnt is that you don't need to worry about spikes, or BOV's or wastegating at all, am I incorrect?
You're right. An ideal system will have very fast response and no spikes higher than 1-3psi. The VNT system is the wastegate in a way, all the exhaust goes through the turbo, thats one reason they are more efficient. All turbos will "bark" if you suddenly lift off at a high load. The key is to avoid that condition whenever possible with any turbo diesel.
If you set the vanes to close and stay closed when you mash the pedal you'll get crazy high boost, very high exhaust manifold pressure and your turbo won't last as long as you'd like.
Only if you have a poorly designed system that is slow to react.
So you gotta come up with a way for the turbo to only make as much boost as you need for the amount of fuel being injected.
Which is a fundamental part of any "good" design.
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Only if you have a poorly designed system that is slow to react.
I was talking about if he didn't have a controller, just a cable connecting the vane lever to the go pedal.
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Thats not a good way to handle control. Lots of moving parts exposed to the elements, it can still only limit boost to one setting and it gives a funky throttle feel.
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sooooo, I need an electronic controller? I was under the rather destinct impression that the direct link is the best Idea especially with a modded pump where the pedal goes down the fuel goes up and at the same time boost enguages and more fuel is added via the LDA are the proportions incorrect? I do understand that that there are some finite adjustments that are going to have to be made, but that comes a bit later, this post is mostly about choosing the right VNT/s to use for what I want to achieve. The vc has an EC unit already on it, but the IDI is inherently non-electronic, and I really don't want it to be more complicated than it already is. The throttle is exactly the way that I want to feel it, I like to be able to feel my car and give her what she needs ::) ;D ;) I am also here for advice, from vnt owners, and I'll take all that I can get.
thanks guys, and keep it comin,
Kevin
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oh, and for the uninformed, I'm here for the BEST way, "whatever that means" for performance and longevity, as well as dummy proof "I need that last one, I am a MARINE, remember folks :-[" if the best way is to use an electronic controller, then I guess I have some learning to do in that regard, and if the best is my way then I know I'm on the right track, but if there is another way that is better, I will change my plans to just that. Not! wishy washy. ::)
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If you search a bit here you should find numerous threads discussing/debating all the various ways to mechanically control a VNT. ;)
In particular, Andrew has published a couple of detailed mechanical controller construction threads.
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I have seen it, just having a tough time locating it, now that I know the author, it should be a cinch. This is the way to go right Vince? This thread has gotten me a bit befuddled ???
thanks,
Kevin
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"troll alert" ok, so I got a couple of mech vnt controller threads from here: but couldn't find Andrews writeup
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21424.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21424.0)
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=19398.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=19398.0)
correction, one of them appears to be Andrews, case of mistaken Identity, sorry Andrew, and thanks. Anything else, more upto-date than that please let me know.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Those were the threads I was thinking of. ;D
In terms of which is "better", electronic or mechanical... well... they both have their charms.
At the the end of the day it kinda boils down to skill level.. I've yet to see an off-the-shelf generic electronic control that didn't require some pretty specialized hardware and software knowledge to construct and tune... mechanical controls are much more assessable to the average dude and if adjusted properly can deliver a very nice control function.
Right, Andrew??!! ;)
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I don't honestly think that I truly understand Andrews design though, and will need some help collecting the parts and assembling it. I understand the concept though "just look at my signature, LOL ;D" I still need advice on the best vnt combo to go with :'(
thanks,
Kevin
P.S. Yes, I thought that the "Toll Alert" was a nice touch, no harm done though 8)
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I'd say electronic undoubtedly provides;
the fastest response time
the most tuning options
self diagnostic capability
and more, but without a Holset or Garrett engineering team, Bosch, and the OEM's backing your play, you may just have to suffer with the rest of us.
So far i've seen one system which can override the CANBUS controller, but I don't think it works standalone. I have a perfect working controller, I just can't tell it what to do :(
http://www.holset.co.uk/mainsite/files/3_1-magazines.php (http://www.holset.co.uk/mainsite/files/3_1-magazines.php) check out edition 10
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good find, and a very good read, I especially liked the axially horizontal turbo idea, interesting way of thinking.
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what about one from a 98 afn code passat from the uk? which vnt is that? I would like to know so I can buy it if it is what I am looking for.
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GRRRRRR! >:( Having a helluvah time finding a pd150 turbo, 1749vb right? I need the part no.s or something that I don't have because I can't find them by searching for pd 150, pd, gt1749vb, or anything else, maybe I found some, but the thing is I don't have the part no. so I cannot confirm. I want to make sure I get the right one. Perhaps I should go back to the drawing board on this one and search another way? I don't want boost too early, even though I will have forged H-beam chromoly rods, but I don't want it too late, with modification, I can recombine these things many ways but I though I had something going here. Any one help me here, I guess the search system is a bit different, because I have never had this hard of a time finding auto parts in the us ebay. Can anyone give me a hand? I could buy a 1722 hybrid, but where is the fun in that? and besides, after I buy the two turbos individually from someone in the UK "breakers/etc." I will save that much more money on my build, as my friend will assist me with the fabrication, and turbo rebuild.
thanks,
Kevin
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K, so I just tried to use 1.9 tdi as a search string, but I got so many results now I can't find or figure out which I need :'( any help would be awesome guys
Thanks,
Kevin
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I want to use the mech control that you have come up with, I like it. I have been having issues wrapping my mind around it but now it is all ok. I would like to know where you got the parts from as well as which boost can to use, my application will be a bit different becaus eof the amount of boost I will be using, as well as the turbo being used.
thanks,
Kevin
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looks good to me, try making a bracket and mounting/welding it to the firewall for your mounting/pivot point. It can be centrally located between the pump and turbo that way and length of the rods can be equal leading to overall longevity and reliability. Perhaps even the boost can can be mounted here to to aid in stability.
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I wouldn't try that without solid motor mounts. Firewall won't move with the engine.
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still need a vnt 17 and vnt 22........Anyone? Help Please :'( I really want to finish this project before I leave for Afghan. I plan to Move back to Okinawa when I get back and will have to send my car home from CA to VA. I am giving it to my brother. Here is your chance to get two Mk1's Rabbitonroids 1 is a 78' and the other is an 80' diesel.
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I plan to use solid mounts in my build, by-the-by where can I find a how to on that? vortex? Remember, this is going into my 01' MR2 Spyder ;) I plan to cut a hide-a-hole in the firewall in the cabin to make fuel adjustments, my setup will be unique for sure. 8)
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more info for the PD seried tdi engines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_diesel_engines#1.9_R4_TDI_PD_43-118kW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_diesel_engines#1.9_R4_TDI_PD_43-118kW)
just scroll down, these are featured in a number of cars, even more configurations, so which ones actually have the highly sought after vnt17? :'( ???