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General Information => General => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on March 14, 2010, 08:24:42 pm
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Hello all! :D
The 81's shifting is terrible.. Trying to grab 1st or 5th, 3rd is often the gear selected. Reverse, 2nd, 3rd ,and 4th all select fine and so does 1st usually.. it just seems right when you really need it to (Advance turn, hill, guy up your arse) i can not for the life of me find 1st!
I have been looking over the Missing Linkz site and I am impressed with his quality of work, however the site is a maze at best ;)
I guess what I am asking is.. what exactly do I need from his site to improve the slop of the shifter moving the same distance in gear or neutral? also the problems of getting in to first or fifth?
I have noticed that the detent for 5th is almost non-existent.. could this be remedied by turning that adjuster on the trans?
Thanks a lot guys.
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Your bushings are shot I bet.the local import parts center here sells the shifter bushing kit for five bucks. It's the first thing that goes into any mk1 I buy. the missing linkz bushings are more important when you go with the short shifter; which he (vwcaddy) makes a very nice and affordable one. Never had any problems with the ones I've been getting.
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What He ^^ said.. Unless you're me, the regular ole bushing kit will fix you right up.. Don't go adjusting anything till your bushings are good.. Getting the linkage adjusted is a royal PITA..
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five bucks, five minutes, and then all you hear is click click click click click ;D
funny part is that most of the slack is taken up by just the two relay shaft bushings. :)
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The relay shaft bushings seem to be the weakest link.. I'm forever wearing these out.. (Maybe I shift too much??) I turned out some brass one's on the last Rabbit, wish I would have made a few sets at the time..
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So i ghetto modded my shifter today by adding about 2.5lbs of steel stock. What a difference!
The entire linkage design is retarded, rods to push other rods that pull other levers and work this and that.. who in their right mind.. lol
So just a run of the mill shifter bushing replacement eh?
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I swear after the engineers at VW got done making the engine and the car, they realized, "Oh how we gonna make this shifter work?" And cobbled something together.. I think I could have, and may just yet, figure out something a little better..
But yes, bushings are standard maintenance.
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On the missing linkz stuff..yea its alot of reading easiest way is...
Just look for the price around $150 in the Mk1 or Mk2 section. It will have everything you want and have the high temp stuff for your turbo (or when you eventually go to turbo)
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So I've been thinkin this over, and money is too tight to be getting a missing linkz one right now.
I can't recall whether i asked down at the local parts shop if they have the bushing kit or not.. Does it come with all the bushings for the entire shifter linkage? or how does it work? Maybe if I get a cheap set, I can take the two relay bushings to a friend who i think still has a lathe and see if he can't run me off some brass ones eh?
Interesting! has anyone seen a good writeup on how to accomplish this bushing swap? or is it straight forward? ???
Its odd that I notice 1st is always had at times when it is not really needed to be "lets get goin!" but when you have a line of cars behind you.. its like 5-6 trys to get it.. PITA.
LOL
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WHen I have a worn shifter I'm always in the middle of an intersection trying to find ANY gear.. ::)
The bushing swap is pretty straight forward.. Take it apart, take out the old bushing, put new bushing in, assemble.. Be it a cheap ebay kit, or something more costly I've really seen no difference as far as how long they last...
The darned relay shaft bushings always seem to be the culprit for me.. I made brass one's for the Frankenbunny and never looked back.. AS with any bushings, remember to hit them with the grease from time to time.. The brass relay bushings have to be a press fit into the bracket, so they are a tad challenging to get in there with everything in the car.. I need to get my mits on another piece of brass stock and turn out a few more of these for the silver bunny..
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my rabbit shifter always worked good, the actual handle would just break off from time to time tho.
it really sucked. be going along, shift gears a little hard, and end up with most of the shifter detached in your hand. i dont know how long i drive around with vise grips sticking off the stub where the shifter used to be. the vise grip shifter was pretty much my favorite part of the black rabbit.
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So i was just outside comparing the 84 with the 81. the 84 has at least three times the play in the relay shaft as the 81..
The two bushings that go around the cylinder part;
(http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/ForSale/Images/shiftkit_01t.jpg)
Yet the 84 has absolutely no problems ever of finding 1st or 5th.. why? so I kinda studied it a bit more, and it appears the relay shaft bushings being tight are only gonna show in up and down movement of the shifter.. so actually getting in to and staying in that gear. The other rod in the awesome vw shifter setup controls side to side of the shifter, and being able to decipher between 1st 3rd and 5th on the shifter.
I was looking at this diagram;
(http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/ForSale/Images/shiftkit_11.gif)
and it suggests that the 4 speeds are the only one with the bend in the middle lever of this picture;
(http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/ForSale/Images/shiftkit_09.jpg)
Mine has a bent one but it does not look like the one pictured, it just has one bend.. and i feel it is what is stopping the selector from moving the correct distance over to get in 5th... However it does not really explain why it is stopping it from getting in to 1st.
I do not believe it is the relay shaft bushings though, as I said the 84 that I have been driving the last 3 years has significantly more play in these bushings.. like so much its doubtful they exist. I am going back out to investigate some more :)
I will order up a bushing set to see if I can't remedy something.. lmao
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the 84 shifter was probably adjusted properly at one point in time. and thats probably why it can still function. my GTI had NO bushings (were completely missing) in the relay shaft, and all my gears worked fine, reverse would pop out tho. re did the 2 relay shaft bushings and the relay ball, and it shifts wonderfully now.
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the 84 shifter was probably adjusted properly at one point in time. and thats probably why it can still function.
That'd be my guess too.. The relay LEVER will however make it crappy for finding 1st and 5th too.. Throw a bushing kit in there, adjust, and you should be golden..
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if you find a good kit and do i write up i'd totally follow suit here Jer. I'd like to fix my shifting as well.
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Difficulty getting in/out of gears is usually a bushing issue on the levers- if there is a lot of slop, that is almost always the relay ball and/or the shift rod bushing in the bracket, which is the biggest PITA to replace of all of it. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and do it.
Just send the missing lynkz guy an e-mail telling him what you have and what you need and he will figure it all out. He's good with replying usually. You can also just get the upgraded relay ball cover and shift rod bushing from him. I think he also sells the normal linkage and bushing kits. I got the full package from him and am glad that I did. Though now I have to rebuild the shift assembly inside the car now. (the reverse lockout sometimes doesn't work)
And yeah, it always seems that you can't find the gear when you have people behind you in an intersection. My Corrado is famous for that.
My Wife drove the Corrado the other day after being used to her Golf (with the missing lynkz stuff) and she said that the Corrado's shifter feels broken compared to hers. :D
Brendan
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if you find a good kit and do i write up i'd totally follow suit here Jer. I'd like to fix my shifting as well.
Ed, you should just do it, its fairly easy to do the project from beginning to completion. if you just fix the broken ones, that makes it even easier.
acutally, better yet, anyone with a worn out shifter needs to fix the bushings. its too stupidly easy to replace them to be running around with a limp shifter. i dont particularly like that it was like fifteen inches in between gears.
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i dont particularly like that it was like fifteen inches in between gears.
Amen to that brother. lol I could only get mine through the dealer around here sadly :( but it is in tomorrow morning, so i will see what is up :)
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aw, that sucks, no 3 dollar napa auto parts rebuild kit for you up there?
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nope. but $11 from the dealer ain't to bad either lol
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no, not bad at all.
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It'll be the best 11 bucks you spend... Heck, I think a prothe kit is like 6 bucks and shipping.. I got ripped.. Last set from a VW dealer set me back 20 bucks >:(
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acutally, better yet, anyone with a worn out shifter needs to fix the bushings. its too stupidly easy to replace them to be running around with a limp shifter. i dont particularly like that it was like fifteen inches in between gears.
I would love to change the bushings in my shifter. In all my shifters.
But VW has long since stopped making the bushings for the 4-speeds and the five speed bushings cost 75 frigging dollars. >:(
This is one of the rare occasions I hate owning a longitudinal VW.
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So when I get these tomorrow morning I will be coming straight home to do them :) is there any words of advice to make this easier? like some preventative things to do instead of tearing right in?
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(http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/ForSale/Images/shiftkit_11.gif)
Kinda looks like the relay shaft just unbolts from the bottom, and the relay lever is done from the top.
Can anyone verify the 4spd 5spd rear selector rod? It says here that the bend is only on the middle of the 4spd? I have a bent one, however it does not have an S bend like the ones on the missing linkz site, its one bend at about 35degrees or so..?
Also how do i go about changing out my Trans fluid? obviously drain and fill, but I have heard that some ones take a different amount of fluid.. and I can't remember where I read it! Also where is the drain and fill plugs? on the 81 we speak of.
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there is a nut on the bottom of the relay shaft, and a bolt holding the relay lever, with a nut on the bottom if i remember right. shaft nut is 13mm, lever nut and bolt are usually 10mm.
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GUYS HELP!!!
I got the bushings in, took me around 15-25 minutes from beginning to end cleaning stuff as i went along. Then i took it out for a drive, 1st every time and all the other gears were firm. 5th was a no show to the party.. how do i adjust?
I got back in to the driveway and bust out the power washer to degrease the engine hardcore. I made sure the intake was sealed, and proceeded. Washed it all up spic and span, looks like a brand new head sittin on the block ;) However when I started it back up, it ran fine and everything was kosher. Let ir sit and run for 10 minutes to kinda heat dry stuff. I then attempted to go for a drive... attempted... I can not shift gears!! Clutch fully depressed, reverse will grind and the other gears you hit a wall...
WTF DID I DO!!!??? PLEASE HELP ME!
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OH! I can get the gears with the car off however
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I wonder if perhaps some water got into the clutch and now the disk is binding on the input shaft...is the plastic cover still on the TDC inspection hole on the top of the tranny?
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Weird, how's the clutch free play? It the timing hole in the bellhousing plugged? If not maybe you washed a slug of goo down into it.
As for not getting 5th, it's just out of adjustment, like you can probably almost hit reverse without pushing it down and over.
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Vince, you beat me >:(...... ;D yeah that's what I was thinkin', maybe a blob of goo dropped onto the splines or something.
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the cover is not there.. Dunno why dunno how it is missing, was there when i timed it :(!
Ok so say water got down in there, will it dry up and be ok? Say a glob of goo dropped in there, will it free up and be ok? Or is this a stupid mistake that has completely ruined my day?
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free play on the clutch, still a stiff feeling as before. All the way to the floor as intended.
Jesus, i hope i didn't just long dick myself.
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Wait a while and see if anything changes. If it stays the same you could put a hose down the hole and flush everything out real good. IDK what that'll do to the clutch though.........make sure it can drain first though.
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i was told by a vortexer with 21,000 posts that water will drain through the clutch.. I believe him, i just went back out and it is still the same.. he suggested a possible Throw out bearing failure.. because it can shift fine with the car not running....
I hope not
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throw out bearing is easy, you can do it in the car.
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Well lets hope it isn't that, but if it isn't gunk.. lets hope it is something as easy as that.. ;)
what all do i need to complete a job such as this?
Also for the adjusting, reverse is very defined.. down and way over to get it.. no way of mistaking it for first.. why is 5th so hard?
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Seems like a pretty sudden failure under strange circumstances :P
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Well lets hope it isn't that, but if it isn't gunk.. lets hope it is something as easy as that.. ;)
what all do i need to complete a job such as this?
Also for the adjusting, reverse is very defined.. down and way over to get it.. no way of mistaking it for first.. why is 5th so hard?
You probably need to adjust it so you have to go even farther to hit reverse and that should let you hit 5th.
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I started the car with it in gear, and it lurched. I propped it up and popped off the green end cover, maybe 50-75ml of very light viscosity oil came out.. everything appeared as it should be. friend pushed the pedal and i could visibly see the rod turn and force the little lever to push the cylinder towards the engine. I just put the cover back on to seal it up.. but does more grease and a new cover need to go back on?
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Gear oil's what ya want ;), and it'll get in there again when you drive it.
That little cylinder you saw was probably the throwout bearing, the best thing
to do would've been to pull it out and see if it felt good.
A new cover isn't neccessary unless it leaks.
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Unfortunately a bum throwout bearing is not going to cause the clutch disk to bind on the input shaft. ;)
Perhaps we should just confirm the symptoms:
1) with the engine *not* running you can shift thru the gears (with the exception of 5th being hard to find)
2) with the engine *running* you can't engage the gears properly, even with the clutch depressed
3) engine off, car placed in gear, clutch pedal depressed, car started... the car lurches forward
Is that about the jist of it at the moment?
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Unfortunately a bum throwout bearing is not going to cause the clutch disk to bind on the input shaft. ;)
Perhaps we should just confirm the symptoms:
1) with the engine *not* running you can shift thru the gears (with the exception of 5th being hard to find)
2) with the engine *running* you can't engage the gears properly, even with the clutch depressed
3) engine off, car placed in gear, clutch pedal depressed, car started... the car lurches forward
Is that about the jist of it at the moment?
%100.
With the trans cover off, I can see the little arm push the bearing towards the engine side of the trans for the whole movement of the pedal. I believe it is getting full extension. Unfortunately it rained all night, so no chance to see if it would "dry out" :(
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This just had to happen didn't it? Its Karma coming to kick me in the sack. Wanting to drive a diesel for like 3 years! finally get one and get it on the road, and this happens. greaaaaaat. Now I'm back to the stumbling, vacuum leaking, blown HG 1.7 Gasser.. which is getting worse and worse as we go along.. ballls! I have another trans, but its an AWY with the 3.94 and 0.89 5th..... I mean if i swapped the trans and then swapped 5th gear.. it would only be a cruising difference in 5th of 25 rpms.. roughly. I guess, but i so do not wanna do that much work lol!
What other suggestions could it be? I've got it outside right now idling in neutral to warm it up and hopefully dry off whatever is causing this problem...
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have you checked the oil level in your trans? or recently filled it up with the wrong wait of oil?
also, if you gotta change your trans out? why not just change the trans out and call it good? the cruisin difference from the .89 to whatever you got wont be super huge of a difference.
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700rpm difference, I wish to keep the .71 5th. I have not touched the oil, it could very well be the problem. What weight oil and how much of it do i need? Also how does one go about getting the drain plug out? and where is the fill plug?
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i took a 17mm bolt, welded a nut on the other end, and made a drain plug tool. the drain is on the bottom, the fill is in the side. right next to the green cover you have already removed. same plug as the drain. trans takes about 2 quarts of oil, just standard 80/85/90 wt gear oil works. im sure VW calls for some special VW transmission oil, but i just use 90wt.
and i was not aware that you had a .71 already. and i missed that it was a 3.94 with a .89 fifth. that really would suck. my AUG had 3.67s and a .89 and it still screamed in fifth, i cant imagine how the AWY will be. and its not gonna have a very tall fourth gear if it has a .89 fifth. crap, now that im looking at it, its the same layout as an AUG, but with a 3.94 final instead of 3.67, so yea, its gonna be a BIG JUMP into fifth gear. just beware.
another thing, depending on the date of your trans, you may have to pull the speedo cable and dump in around another half quart of oil in after you get it filled up.
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would bad fluid cause this problem to happen within the hour though? I mean i was driving it all yesterday morning, and then just nothing.
Here is another little thing i noticed when i was outside. I got it to operating temperature and let it sit for like a half hour, in that half hour i had brief periods of holding it at or around 4000 rpm if anything was gonna fly off the clutch it woulda done it... nothing still same crap. However i noticed that with the clutch in and car running, trying to go for a gear makes the engine rpm decrease.. why is this?
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Ok how does the trans work..
You push the clutch pedal which lifts the lever on the front of the trans, which turns a spline shaft that has the little arm on it, that pushes the throwout bearing towards the engine.. Then what happens? the rest is internal and I do not know how it works. Up until that point everything else is working as intended..
When the Throw Out bearing is pushed in, what happens? does it physically move something to allow the clutch to slide away from the PP? what causes the Clutch to want to slide away from the PP? is it a sprung ordeal in there?
Sorry for the rambling I am just trying to figure out why it is doing this all of a sudden, with no real reasons to not work...
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The throw out bearing pushes the clutch rod which in turn pushes the clutch open :P, go here for more info: http://www.brokevw.com/ (http://www.brokevw.com/)
When you try putting it in gear and it bogs down it's the syncros trying to do their job but can't with the clutch dragging so hard.
I'd say your tranny's fine, you clutch has issues. :(
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On the backside of the throwout bearing is a simple rod call the pushrod. It goes out through the center of the transmission input shaft through a little hole with a seal and bushing behind it. When this tiny seal starts to leak, transmission fluid can make its way to the clutch disc friction pads and contaminate them. This problem caused grabbing during engagement.
The rod hits the center of the a plate call the thrust plate. The center of that plate is just a plug of metal that should have a bit of grease on it. Sometimes the plug wears out, the rod pokes through, and you are hosed.
The rod pushes the thrust plate against the spring fingers of the pressure plate. This is the reaction force you feel when pushing in the clutch pedal. This causes the face ring of the pressure plate to draw back off the flywheel. Since the clutch disc is sandwiched between the pressure plate and the flywheel, the disc breaks free of both flywheel and pressure plate.
The clutch disc rides the input shaft of the transmission. So, when the clutch disc is free, the transmission shaft winds-down since it is not longer under power. If for some reason the disc is not free to slide around on the input shaft, it may bind on the flywheel and pressure plate, resulting in difficulty changing gears and grinding problems as the transmission is not fully disengaged.
Lack of satisfactory lubricant and corrosion on the clutch disc splines can cause binding of the clutch disc hub. That is why some lubricant for the input shaft spines is included in some clutch kits, and why some clutch hubs are nickel-plated, to reduce seizing.
I still have a stiff resistance, same as before.. so i don't think the Pushrod has gone through the thrust plate.. however the clutch does appear to not be disengaging from the flywheel and PP...
Wait a tic here, if the pushing of the peddle pulls the PP away from the clutch.. and the clutch disc were fused to either of the two faces, would it not still pull one of the face away? either PP from the fused clutch/flywheel combo or the PP/clutch combo away from the powered flywheel? Something isn't adding up here...
The clutch disk slides back and forth on the the splined input shaft? maybe its the PP that is stuck in place? sandwiching the clutch in there.. and not allowing anything to happen...
Whats the course of action guys? How do you even drop a tranny out of one of these? Bell housing bolts, and driver side mount?
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Here's a picture to aid in the conversation:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/clutch.jpg)
The clutch plate transfers energy from the flywheel to the splined inputshaft on the tranny. The pressure plate forces the clutch plate against the flywheel normally.. this pressure is released when you depress the clutch via the throwout bearing and pushrod.
If there's a relationship between you washing the head and your clutch problems it's possibly:
- water got into the clutch assembly via the uncovered inspection hole
- clutch disk is now rusted onto the splined input shaft, so doesn't disengage properly even when you release the pressure plate tension via the clutch pedal
There's a chance that the rust is slight and is just causing a little binding that might break loose...unfortunately I can't think of a way to help break it loose other than exercise the clutch a lot while accelerating and decelerating (to make the clutch disk rock on the splined shaft). Spraying something into the clutch might break the rust free but will muck up the dlsk friction material.
You could try that... start the car in gear and then accelerate and accelerate hard with the clutch to the floor... the rocking might break the splines loose.
Otherwise the tranny has to come out... can be done with the engine in the car supported by a cross-engine brace... Bentley has the proceedure.
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Guys, a beer for everyone :)
Vince your idea for starting the car in gear and accelerate kinda worked, I couldn't get it to catch and actually drive away.. However I lurched it back and forth in first and reverse about three times and VOILA! heard a nice click, and CLUTCH! Thank you all very much for your advice :)
However now that I have it fixed I want to do more to potentially mess it up again.. lmao
I wish to change the trans oil for one, and for two I noticed that the shifter bushings have taken the front to back play in the shifter while in gear, but there is still side to side play in gear.. I haven't had a chance to really look at where the play is being made.. but does anyone have any suggestions?
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GAP says this is a 4spd long rod... that's what I have in my car, could it be the reason i can't hit fifth properly? just not goin over far enough?
(http://www.germanautoparts.com/images/7607a6e244339353131373137313/f)
I most certainly do not have this 5spd rod..
(http://www.germanautoparts.com/images/7607a6e254339353131373137313/f)
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I've found that none of the rods are perfect....the long ones like to rub stuff, it might help though.
It was probably a 4 speed once upon a time. Check the relay ball or whatever it's called, 4 and 5 speed takes a different size.
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yeah it looks as though the 4spds take a smaller ball, its got a little play but only because of the obvious wear on the ball.. Wouldn't a 4spd rod be never intended to hit fifth? could be my issue.. me thinks
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That'd be my guess.. Even with everything tight, there just isn't enough adjustment to hit 5th with a 4 speed rod.. I've already just bent the 4 speed rod to get things to work.. Kinda of a PITA but it's cheap...