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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: truckinwagen on February 22, 2010, 10:54:12 am
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I have a problem, I have found several incredible deals on dry nitrous kits, and am having a hard time convincing myself not to get one.
I can afford it at the moment, but really shouldn't spend the cash right now.
help me out, convince me(one way or the other)
-Owen
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On your G60 1.6? So, you've got a supercharger, meth injection, and you want nitrous, too?
I vote "do it," because I want to see it done. Those of us that don't own a decent garage have to live vicarously through you other builders.
On the other hand, I know you'll be wishing you hadn't when you need money for something later.
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yeah, cost is an issue, but I am funding my projects with parts sold from parting other cars, so...(and the kit is $250 shipped)
as for the garage thing, this car sits in a parking lot that has a very strict "no working on your cars" policy, so all work done on it is either with a careful eye on the landlords parking spot, or at borrowed garages on weekends.
yes this is the supercharged 1.6, and would only be for when I want to get really stupid.
the water/meth is for intercooling, as I don't have underhood space for a good intercooler.
the point of my build is for raw power without waiting for it, so it is hard to turn down nitrous at such a good price.
Grrrr.... all I am doing is making myself want it more!
-Owen
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Dear Owen,
Get it and be happy. You want it bad enough to make a post about not wanting it ;)
DOO ITT ;D
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yeah, I probably will.
just need a few sales to go through so my paypal balance gets high enough to purchase.
my wife says that if I can buy things with paypal money from selling parts then its cool.
as far as filling the bottle, I will probably give myself a limit to how many times I can refill, like once a month or something.
-Owen
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You don't need nitrous..
But it'd sure be fun!! ;D
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nitrous would be awesome for more charge cooling ;)
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nitrous would be awesome for more charge cooling ;)
yep, that was my first thought, but it is kinda expensive for long term use for cooling the intake
it will do a great job for heavy acceleration.
I was thinking of starting with a little jet, like a 20 or so, and go as high as a 50 jet.
-Owen
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You don't need nitrous.
IIRC, you've been planning on twin charging it all along? Keep going with that.
With an appropriate turbo charger selection and a well thought out design, you'll be able to push the limits of what your rods and head can take without the bottle.
If it were some 6L monster pushing 80psi and revving all the way to 3500rpm, it might make sense, but you should be able to pump enough air to get your engine boosting like hell
That being said, it would add to an awesome build ;D
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yeah, for what I would put into the nitrous I could get ahold of a holset H1C and manifold, which might be a better use of the cash.
if I do that, I really need a good intercooler between the turbo and supercharger though, which is going to take some coin. if I could get someone to take the one I have off my hands, I would have some scrilla to play with on an intercooler, but until then...
the other question is this:
too much boost(and subsequent power) has been shown to deform the head and cause headgasket failure on these motors
it seems that 200HP(and the boost to support it) is about the limit of the head.
nitrous requires much less volume to generate power, so do you think that one could make more power with nitrous than boost? as the cylinder pressures would be less(from a smaller volume of intake charge being compressed by the piston)
or would the peak power potential be the same with N2O as boost?(ignoring the fact that the bottle only lasts so long)
-Owen
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I see what you're saying about the NOS having greater power potential. I wonder how significant that would be?
Completely simplified, power output is the average force on the pistons/head. Without dropping compression or retarding timing, it seems to me that regardless of your charge air mass and therefore pre ignition pressure, the force on the pistons will be the same throughout the stroke and therefore peak pressure on the head would be the same for the power. I suppose less parasitic loss from compressing the charge air? Not sure how much of a difference it would be though.
It's too bad we can't toss our compression ratio and timing around as easily as the gassers!
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yeah, you are probably right...
alright, so now about turbos.
I need some input.
the maps and math that I have done suggests that a holset H1C from a 6L dodge wold be a good fit(very similar to the HX35)
I can get one for cheap, but I can also get an H1C from a cummins 4BTA which has a smaller compressor/different exhaust housing
I cant find a map for the 4BTA turbo, but it is designed for a 4L motor spinning at 3000-ish RPM, while the standard H1C is designed for a 6.5L motor spinning about the same speed.
any thoughts?
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WHOAH! those snails are HUGE!!! :o how are you going to fit it under the hood? plus, when you do it, I want a ride 8)
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yeah, they are big.
I would probably have to modify a stock toilet bowl manifold to fit them and ditch the gasser manifold.
I cant hang the turbo from the exhaust mani, as it would interfere with the rear motor mount. and the MK2 T3 turbo manifold, which puts the turbo directly behind the mani, would put it into the firewall.
so the logical thought is to mount it on top, like the stock TD turbo manifold does, but that interferes with the intake.
oh well, I should probably wait to get too wrapped up in the particulars of mounting until I get the turbo in my hands.
I just want to make sure I can spool the bastard before I buy it, I cant return them if they don't work out the way I want.
-Owen
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modify the hood and use a mkIV style intake, that comes up and overtop of the motor, hmmm........ Idea ;D
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Yeah, where are you going to put that turbo with out building a custom manifold.
The H1C is a fairly big turbo in comparison to any VW turbos.
I'm tring to fit one in my engine bay with using a custom manifold but it limits the intake manifold design.
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/GOPR0121.jpg).
Its tight sqeeze between the fire wall and intake manifold.
The H1C has different ex. housings to be able to spool it and some, have internal wastegates.
Try searching here for info on Holsets.
http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/turbo_faq.htm (http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/turbo_faq.htm)
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yeah, I have been pondering the thought of making a log style manifold, but instead of putting the turbo in the middle, putting it over on one end to clear everything.
I would really like to keep the gasser intake, as it flows so much better than the TD one.
oh well, if some parts sell I will have the $$ to get the turbo and see...
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what about tipping the motor forward some, so it will still fit behind it? dunno if its possible.. just throwin it out there. This thing is gonna rip ;)
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what about tipping the motor forward some, so it will still fit behind it? dunno if its possible.. just throwin it out there. This thing is gonna rip ;)
this is what im gonna do. i took an audi K24 and mounted it on a stock exhaust mani. had to add a couple studs to it tho, cause only 2 bolt holes line up. it comes aweful close to the firewall. i was going to put spacers under the rear engine mounts to raise the back, and attempt to build some sort of a bracket to drop the front of the engine down a bit. but thats going to be done eventually, i still have a supercharged 16 valve ABA 2.0 to build at the moment.
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the problem I have with tilting the motor forward is that I already have clearance problems with the front crossmember.
I might be able to clearance the crossmember some and drop the front of the motor though...
-Owen
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I think as long as you were to reinforce the front cross member.. notching could be done successfully.. I mean the front mount doesn't really hold any of the engines weight, and the torque is applied to the rear mount anyway (i think so anyway)..
So making a new front mount 3-4" lower should bring the motor forwards considerably.. might have to redo all the mounts though.. and not to sure how this will work out for you. lol
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the MK2 only has three mounts, two in the back, and one in the front.
so the front mount holds allot of weight at rest, and all the torque of acceleration.
what is interfering, however, is the upper part of the crossmember that the front tin attaches to, not the lower part that the mount attaches to, so I think I can notch it without loosing any structural integrity.
I would only be able to lower the front a couple inches at best before I would have to notch the structural member too.
might be worth making a custom tube crossmember to lower the front even more, it would be super cool to be able to use a cast manifold available for $100.
-Owen
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sorry man, i was for some reason thinking you were talking bout an mk1. My bad.
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thats cool.
I really like the mk1 style of engine mounting where if one mount has a catastrophic failure the motor will flop a bit, but stay in the car.
the MK2(which breaks front mounts ALOT) will drop the motor right on the ground when one fails
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thats cool.
I really like the mk1 style of engine mounting where if one mount has a catastrophic failure the motor will flop a bit, but stay in the car.
the MK2(which breaks front mounts ALOT) will drop the motor right on the ground when one fails
flop around a bit? i can see you have not severely messed up your mounts. my injection pump was basically facing directly up. turbo was almost lower than the oil pan, and the intake was wedged against the firewall. idk how i didnt separate my axles when i did that. IT DID stay in the engine bay tho, but just barely. and shifting was kinda weird, the gears were not where they were supposed to be, and R, 1, 3, and 5 didnt work at all.
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oh, I have broken my fair share of MK1 mounts, I broke the front one clean off 50 mile from home, and I can sincerely say that it does take substantial load as my motor was banging the hood quite a bit.
I also broke the transmission mount off once(that was a harrowing drive back home) the tranny scraped the ground a bit on bumps, but it stayed in place.
a buddy of mine broke his front mount in his MK2, and the motor fell out. pan on the ground.
when I broke my mk2 front mount off, the only thing keeping the motor off the ground was the larger than stock oil filter got caught on the front crossmember(and got mangled beyond recognition)
-Owen
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another turbo I have been looking at is a garret T04B, it has a similar map to the holset(not good for as high a pressure ratio, but I was not planning on running huge boost out of it anyway) but has a physically smaller compressor housing, which might make it easier to fit behind the head.
-Owen
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well, I cant find a manifold with the T4 flange, so the T04B is out.
anyone know what the real difference between the 4BTA and 6BTA H1C turbos really is?
the compressor housing on the 4BTA is smaller, but the impeller is the same(or darn close to it)
I might get the 4BTA one as it would be easier to squeeze in there.
-Owen
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the only difference I can find between the two H1C turbos is the physical dimensions of the housings, it seems that the actual compressor wheel is the same.
so I think I will go ahead and grab the 4BTA one and see how it works.
sizing turbos for this thing is a little subjective anyway.
-Owen
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well, I just found a used nitrous kit with a 10LB bottle on the 'tex for $130 shipped.
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/gcatalfo/Zu%20Verkaufen/IMG_0434.jpg)
I am feeling the pangs again, I want it!
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truckinwagen if you are still planning to do the twin charger set up, wait for the nitrous. I am sure you will pay a pretty penny for your twin charger set up. Nitrous will be the Icing on the cake when your twin charger build is finished.
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yeah, well, it is just such a good deal!
as for the charger setup, I have the supercharger.
from here it is just fab work to get it on(and not that much really)
as for the turbocharger, I dunno, honestly I am not sure if the motor will take all the boost.
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What happened to your G60? What are you putting on now?
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the G60 went pop.
I put a new timing belt in it, only to have it break 100 miles later.
the belt must have been bad from the factory, as there was really nothing else that could have caused the failure.
I have an M62 now, which should be harder to break.
I was boosting to 10PSI for about 200 miles, and it was more fun than any other diesel vw I have ever driven, I boosted to 18PSI for about a minute, but then the charger popped. it was a blast until then though.
I plan on pushing 15-20PSI out of the M62, but am not sure if I want to push the motor too much more than that.
if I put a big turbo on it, it would only really make sense to make a fair amount of boost with it, which I dont think the motor would take(when compounded by the supercharger)
I think that the nitrous would go well with the supercharger very well, the motor makes lots of power by itself boosted, and there really is no lack of power for driving around and putting other similar cars in their place.
and it does very well on the highway too(would actually like a good way of dropping off boost on the highway)
but there are occasions when a little more would be nice, and nitrous not only allows more fuel to be burned, but it drops intake and exhaust temps drastically while at it.
oh.
if I can sell some of the bits I have for sale now, I will probably do it, and decide whether to regret it later.
-Owen
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I am really sorry to hear that man, that sucks big time. Nitrous sure would be a good way to go if you are not doing the twin charger. I still have not installed my Zex kit on my Lysholm 1.6 yet, too busy remodeling a bathroom in one of my rental units, spending time with my 3 year old and working 60 hrs a week :o
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yeah, life does get in the way.
I wont be doing anything with the supercharger or the nitrous until I come back from work in the fall.
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truckinwagen,
why not just use the supercharger to make a "baseline" 10psi and have the turbo work ontop, a not crazy 15psi. That way your peaking out at 25psi and can probably use quite a good sized turbo so its not too restrictive.
just because your setup 'could' make 35-40psi, doesnt mean you have to :-) I like components to work well inside of their safety factor range :-)
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yeah, I suppose.
although the m62 will be very happy to produce 15 PSI, so it wont be out of its element there.
I really like the simplicity of the supercharged setup, and am not sure if I want to complicate things with the turbocharger(yet at least that is)
the nitrous would not add any complexity really, I am going to build a control circuit for my water/meth anyway, and was going to run the nitrous as the final stage of spray on that controller.
it will also allow me to quickly spool a big turbo down the road if I decide to do that too.
I could probably wait, but this is such a good deal I'm not sure if I can pass it up, even if it is a while before I install it.
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Owen, I'm very sorry for this video BUT I HAVE TOO.
Fast and the furious in five seconds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDmKr8slxmk#)
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thats cool, but notice that I am thinking of installing a nitrous kit on my car not "Gettin' me some Nawz, Yo!"
a secret part of me loves those movies!
"Danger to the Manifold!"
-Owen
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thats cool, but notice that I am thinking of installing a nitrous kit on my car not "Gettin' me some Nawz, Yo!"
a secret part of me loves those movies!
"Danger to the Manifold!"
-Owen
Yup, the towing companies LOVE those movies becuase the night of release at the movie theater the impound lots fill up with street racers lol
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if you get really ........strange................use the NOS to kick the compresser wheel and cool the charge and prevent ........lag.....from the turbo. Or,.......................... :-X
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well, this is all moot anyway, as I just had to spend the money I was going to use for the nitrous on new front wheel bearings for my wife's neon.
so instead of tinkering with power adders, I get to tear the front end off a early 2000's american car.
Blech!
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correction, an early 2000's American car with a mitsubishi engine ::) enjoy
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the mitsubishi engine is by far the best part of the car.
I am very glad that they realized that they could not make a good small motor and bout the rights to a really well put together one form someone else.
the neon would really suck if chrysler built their own motor...
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The Mitsu 6-cylinders were kinda dodgy though - nothing like having to remove the intake manifold to get at half the sparkplugs!! Not exactly what I would call "easy to work on"
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the six cylinders may have been crap, but the 16v four banger is a really nice little peice.
it is reliable as hell(some oil consumption, but not bad), revs to the moon, and is not a dog down low like a honda.
by far the most widely usable powerband of any car I have ever driven.
the rest of the neon is not bad, just nothing special.