VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: jseeley on February 13, 2010, 08:23:27 pm
-
I'll try to make my story as short and informative as I can. I've had my 85 1.6 NA Diesel for a little over a year. The injector pump had begun to become leaky (probably from all the ULSD) I sent my IP out to Giles at Performance Diesel for a rebuild (Performance Pump) After getting the pump back on, new timing belt (and v-belts) everything fired up and seemed good to go. At that time I didn't have a timing dial but the car was running decently. However after taking it for a spin within a few miles it stalled and I couldn't get it restarted. Looking over everything it turned out the belt had jumped time at the IP sprocket... near catastrophe there. Everything was tightened back up, and belt timing reset. The car would start and idle roughly, but would not respond to throttle. After that I waited for a timing dial to arrive. Once I had a dial I measured the timing at .87 (retarded) Adjusted the pump to .97, which is the high end of spec for an '85. Started it up, ran decently at first, then had the same behavior, rough idle, no throttle response. After lots of troubleshooting I found the car would run normally when fuel return was run into a jar, but not when it was hooked up to the main return line. So, is my main return line blocked? Fuel tank vent issue? Leak in return line? My current plan is to replace the fuel return line... but suggestions, comments questions are all welcome... I am a NOVICE at this.
Also where do I even get a new return fuel line for a diesel? My "hard" lines do not appear to be metal, they're hard plastic.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2421/3626300155_47e58cfae6.jpg)
-
You could try blowing through the line with low pressure shop air.. 30-40 psi.. may just be gunk in the tank..?
if the fuel can't get out of the pump and back to the tank, new fuel can't get in either :P and stall.
goodluck
-
P.S WELCOME TO THE BEST DIESEL BOARD IN NORTH AMERICA ;)
You'll learn lots of gooood stuff here :P!
-
Thanks; I've been lurking forever :P
I only got to drive with My Giles pump for a few miles.... I'm REALLY looking forward to getting everything sorted out so I can drive it again... this is my daily and its been down for almost 2 months.
Just to confirm; A leak in the return line wouldn't cause this issue right? Only a blockage? I looked for a leak but I couldn't find one, my trusty Bentley sent me down the path of a return line issue, listing a fuel line return leak as a possible cause of my symptoms... A blockage may be easier to identify than a leak which is why I was considering just replacing the return line, but I dunno where to get one.
To throw this out there; What is everyone's opinion of the water separator by the fuel tank? Should I delete it while I'm down there?
-
Most mk2 people take the water separator out.
A leaky return line will only waste fuel but won't effect the running at all.
A blocked return line will cause VERY high internal pump pressure thus causing way excessive dynamic timing advance and also most likely cause leaks in the pump.
Air leaking into the feed line will make it run bad, you can see that if it has a clear line.
-
That car looks tastefully good, dooode!
-
Most mk2 people take the water separator out.
A leaky return line will only waste fuel but won't effect the running at all.
A blocked return line will cause VERY high internal pump pressure thus causing way excessive dynamic timing advance and also most likely cause leaks in the pump.
Air leaking into the feed line will make it run bad, you can see that if it has a clear line.
I ran some clear lines during troubleshooting; The send from the tank and return out of the pump are good once it's primed (no air bubbles) All of the engine bay lines are switched to Viton lines now though. I wonder if a clog in the return was the demise of my original pump before getting a rebuild... I'll try to clean out my current return line if I can... otherwise replace it. If anyone knows were to get a new return line please let me know. Is the line specific to MK2 diesels? Seems like just hard plastic tubing, can I get it at a regular auto supply shop? I'm going to check a scrap yard and VW parts supplier tomorrow. Feels good to be getting to the bottom of all my issues. ;D
-
I am with Dakotakid on the looks. It is awesome. Please get me the color code as that is the same as my jetta I believe and even if it is not it is close enough for me to do it over without the inside not matching or being off.
Good luck on the lines, I ran the viton stuff to original.
-
I am with Dakotakid on the looks. It is awesome. Please get me the color code as that is the same as my jetta I believe and even if it is not it is close enough for me to do it over without the inside not matching or being off.
Good luck on the lines, I ran the viton stuff to original.
I WISH I knew the color code myself; The car was re-painted by the previous owner. I eventually want to re-paint it (there are some dings and areas that need attention) and I really want to keep the same color. The original color of the car was Blue Metallic (LA5Z) which is a lighter blue than it is currently. Right now I'm thinking its "Techno Blue" LW5Y which is a New Beetle color... I'll have to find one someday and park next to it to confirm..... :-\
Thanks for all the compliments!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3659/3626297743_3a1f32b22c.jpg)
-
Just take a knife and scratch some of it off and take it to the paint store for evaluation..... ::)
(Pull the fuel door and have it evaluated at the paint store).
My 16 valver would look good with those clothes!
-
Got some advice that it could be the check valves in the return line that are clogged. I'm tearing into it tomorrow, are the check valves needed, should I replace them? Procedure for cleaning them? Remove it completely?
-
I checked the hardlines; They are clear, no clogs or leaks. I replaced all the rubber connecting lines with new viton lines, both by the tank and in the bay. The check valve on the return line seems failed, fuel flowed in either direction freely so I removed it for now. The check valve on the supply side seemed good though. I also deleted my water separator by the tank to rule out any air leaks or clogs there and still same symptoms on my vehicle. Start but idles roughly and eventually stalls. I can run it perfect from a jar of fuel, and actually even run it with the supply from the tank and the return to a jar, but when I hook up the main return if eventually will stall. Right now I'm noticing 2 things. The return line does not seems to put out a whole lot of fuel, and under heavy throttle it actually seems to suck fuel in, not sure what that means.... Also my stop solenoid is leaking fuel on the pump, which is distressing since it a freshly rebuilt pump from Giles pump and the car only has run about 1.5miles since its all back together. Anyone have any ideas whats happening? I pulled the sending unit from the tanks and its good as well, no clogs. I'm very sure everything is primed as i've been doing it all with a hand pump and clear lines till there are no more air bubbles.
opinions welcome!
-
Is the OUT bolt stamped out?
There is a filter in the out bolt, make sure it isn't clogged up.
Where is the stop solenoid leaking from?
-
Is the OUT bolt stamped out?
There is a filter in the out bolt, make sure it isn't clogged up.
Where is the stop solenoid leaking from?
I had the return banjo fitting apart to check, seemed ok. Stop solenoid is leaking from the very top were the screw goes in to hold electrical connection from the ignition; Lower part where the solenoid screws to the pump seems ok.
-
Giles thinks it's a restriction at the supply check valve; Anyone know where to get a comparable replacement? The part number I had above are for a mk4 I think... REALLY hope this is my issue...
The whole thing with the injection pump pulling fuel from the return side is throwing me though... is this the expected behavior if the supply side is restricted? I suppose I could test with 2 bottles of fuel, one for supply and one for return to ensure the pump if functioning 100%. It runs well from a single bottle, but I couldn't tell if the return was pulling fuel or not then.... :-\
-
Helios Blue? I wan't those alloys! Good luck with the gremlins.
-
I don't think it is possible for the return to suck fuel in
-
It runs well from a single bottle, but I couldn't tell if the return was pulling fuel or not then.... :-\
Putting the In line in a bottle of fresh fuel, and the Out line in an empty clear bottle.. it will show if any is coming out of the pump. It should come out almost instantly after starting the engine.
-
It runs well from a single bottle, but I couldn't tell if the return was pulling fuel or not then.... :-\
Putting the In line in a bottle of fresh fuel, and the Out line in an empty clear bottle.. it will show if any is coming out of the pump. It should come out almost instantly after starting the engine.
I will try the 2 bottle method while searching for a replacement check valves; The return line sucking fuel in is definitely possible because I can see it happening when feeding off the main fuel tank and routing the return into a bottle, under load the return draws fuel back into the pump. The only thing besides the supply being restricted that could cause this is something internally inside the pump which is freshly rebuilt by Giles. ???
-
call me a noob, but these diesels return ALOT of fuel after the pump does its thing. If it runs off of a single bottle, there must be some other problem. Its not like the fuel dissapears. we call that black smoke ;D
-
Never had the fuel system apart before to know how much fuel flows through the return, but I agree and would expect a good amount of fuel to be returned. The car is not smoking (any more than usual) clean out the tailpipe at idle, a puff off soot under rev and clears back up at a given rpm. No one has really been able to say if sucking fuel on the return line is a symptom of anything. I've never had an issue with the car until I put the superpump in. I don't want to point a finger at the pump though because Giles's reputation is outstanding in these (and other) forums. I had always planned to get a superpump eventually, and went for the rebuild when my old IP started to become leaky, but everything was still running perfectly at that time. However if I can't solve my issue I may just buy another pump as there aren't too many things left that can be wrong. Compression test, leak-down test, good injectors, replacing fuel lines, removed water separator, quadruple checking my timing. Its all been a great learning experience, but I want my car back on the road...
Anyone know where to pickup a new check valve? The check valve on the supply side is the only thing I haven't replaced or removed yet. I can certainly remove it for testing, but I will need to replace it if it turns out to be my issue. :-\
-
Have you tried talking to Giles yet?
Phone: 905-940-2266
Fax: 905-940-2261
E-mail: [email protected]
I'm just saying.. not to blame the pump.. but ot phone before you go and buy a new pump after spending $800... ;)
-
Have you tried talking to Giles yet?
Phone: 905-940-2266
Fax: 905-940-2261
E-mail: [email protected]
I'm just saying.. not to blame the pump.. but ot phone before you go and buy a new pump after spending $800... ;)
Yep, He believes its the supply check valve or at least some sort of suction problem from the tank. He said it shouldn't be more than 6-8Hg to pull fuel from the tank. I'll have a a mighty-vac hand pump I've been using for priming but I never noted how much suction it require while priming. I'm not at the end of all my testing, but fairly close. However if I test the IP with a separate supply and return bottle and the return is still pulling fuel IN, then I'm at a loss as to what could be wrong beside something internal at the pump. However if the symptoms of having a clogged supply is suction at the return then it all makes sense I suppose.
-
I don't have a lot of experience, but I've had the opposite problem, with the return line from the injector to the pump line (banjo that has the extra line for the injector return) leaking. Testing to get it stopped, my pump on a 90 1.6NA (stock car) there is a lot of fuel going through the return at idle. Enough, like mentioned, that as soon as the car starts fuel will be going into the return or the bottle if you have one hooked to the return.
I would think if it's not, it is a supply issue and not the pump. Just my 2 cents.
-
Having a heck of a time finding a check valve... might try this->
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170447291660 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170447291660)
-
Update-
I started with running the engine with separate supply and return bottles in the engine bay to make sure I was getting fuel out on the return side since I was having weird behavior before; That seemed fine, the "out" jar slowly filled. I would have expected it to go faster, but everything was running just fine. So I checked the supply from the tank as recommended by Giles; Was able to pull freely from the out of the filter in the bay with only 2 or 3 HG's of vacuum; No restriction on the supply side. Then placed a new check valve on the return fuel line because I had removed it previously after finding it was not functional (fuel flowed in either direction) That seems to cure my stalling issues when using the return to the main tank. Fuel was being supplied from the tank and returned to the tank finally. I let the car idle from about 20-30 mins, reeving it now an again. everything was going well, then it was like someone flipped a switched and it started reeving on its own, like a runaway condition. I shut her down and when back to the bottle, started up and I noticed A LOT more fuel was coming out of the return from the pump now, more like what I would expect. It also seem like much more was being drawn in as well. However the revving continued to get higher, approaching red-line. Shut her down again. Now whenever I start up it just rev's up real high and then floats around in the higher rpm's. There is throttle response but never goes back down to idle. I checked the air box for oil to see if it was actually running away, but its clean and I'm able to shut down the engine no problem. Car has never had this type of condition before. I even installed a "cam saver" plastic shield when I was putting everything back together after reading about runaway. Kinda stumped yet again... any advice?
I spoke to Giles for a bit and He recommended to bring back the idle stop screw on the pump; I had to quit before I could get to that (to start work) however. Just doesn't make sense that it would need adjusting there if it idled fine before.
Kinda depressing me that a simple leaky pump has turned into such an issue :(
-
The hanging rpm sounds like a poorly adjusted Main fuel screw. Might check that too.
-
The hanging rpm sounds like a poorly adjusted Main fuel screw. Might check that too.
Tried that; Its either backing it off so much that it won't start, or having it rev too high. There is no in-between at this time.
-
Can you take a picture of the timing mark you used on the flywheel?
-
Can you take a picture of the timing mark you used on the flywheel?
Will do as soon as I can; The car is not currently at my garage. I plan on towing it back this Saturday. Looks like a diamond though; Cam lobes are in the correct position (pointed up on Cylinder number 1) when aligned to that mark.
-
After reading this post->
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=18238.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=18238.0)
I wonder if I should rebuild my injectors; Or at least get them pop tested... high revving idle is kinda my situation now; I still have throttle response, but it won't drop down...
-
Soooooooo... I received new injectors today. I'll be tearing back into the car tomorrow and I'm really at a loss what could be wrong with the car at this point if it's not injectors. Any suggestions? To recap-
85 Golf 1.6 NA
Compression is decent (400-425)
IP re-built by Giles
Timed to 0.97mm (re-checked multiple times)
All pump bracket bolts are tight and secure
No blockage in hard lines send or return (only takes 2-3 Hg's to pull fuel)
New viton "soft" lines everywhere else
New Check valves
Rear Water Separator deleted
Car starts and immediately wants to "runaway" I've adjusted the fuel screw and idle stop to try and stop this behavior, but there is a point where if I back it off more the car will no longer start. Turning just to the point I can start, the idle will still go very high and then it surges around in the upper RPM's. The engine is not feeding off oil from the breather box, there is no oil in there and the engine still shuts down normally and doesn't continue it's runaway like symptoms. The engine is not overfilled with oil, I haven't put any in since I pulled the pump to have it rebuilt. At this point the injectors themselves are the only un-tested part of the system. The plan is to replace them as I suspect a dripping or leaky one; I will get the old ones tested for my own sanity. However if I'm still having the same symptoms with new injectors can anyone think of anything else that could cause this issue? The car was running (though a bit rough) for a bit when I was first getting it going with the new pump but I found I could run normally off a jar of fuel. Replacing my check valves sorted out that issue but after about 25mins of perfect idle with the new check valves this surging high idle/runaway appeared. Now the car will have this issue right on start-up. I've tried switching back to the bottle of fuel with the same results. I've been priming with a hand pump "mighty vac" on the out side of the pump till I have no air in the lines. Doing lots of testing with clear lines, air is not the issue, from what I've seen air usually makes the engine stumble anyway, not rev UP. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. :-\
-
Is it smoking when it's running away?
The throttle isn't stuck is it? ::)
Is your vacuum pump properly hooked up with no cracks in the line?
Is your air filter clean?
How much are you adjusting the max fuel screw?
-
Smoke is clean coming out the exhaust even with the high rev'ing; faint grey haze. Unless I turn up the fuel very high at which point it becomes darker. I would say the fuel screw is currently around the point it was when I received the pump (would a picture help?) I'm only adjusting its like an 1/8th of a turn each time.
The throttle is all the way in the idle position resting against the stop screw; It's not binding on the cable or anything.
I did remove the vacuum pump when setting my timing, to fit the dial gauge. What would be the improper way to re-install it? Could a vacuum pump problem cause the surging idle? I do have a new o-ring for where the vacuum pump meets the block because when I had it off I noticed there wasn't one there (Thank you PO ::) ) There are only 2 lines that come off the pump, one to the brake booster and one to the A/C. I can't identify any leaks there, but I will double check.
Air filter is quite clean.
-
I don't think a picture will help, but I know it won't hurt.
I was asking about the vacuum pump because it can pressurize the crankcase and cause all sorts of funny problems depending on your engine.
-
If the crankcase was pressurized, how would I be able to identify this issue? Could I test by running with the oil cap off?
Here is a pic of my fuel screw->
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2722/4409854374_69a7290bd0.jpg)
At this point I can start the car but still have an escalating idle; Much lower and the car is hard to start.
-
Is the nut tight that holds the accelerator lever to the shaft? Shaft splines in good shape?
The nut here with the yellow dot?
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4410008602_635c467c1e.jpg)
It's exactly how I received it from Giles; Seems secure. Is this also the shaft you are asking about? I've never had it apart...
I assume this all looks correct...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4410024768_467817e203.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2797/4410024858_c266352548.jpg)
-
New injectors went in; Same behavior... Anyone have ideas? good compression, new pump, new injectors, timing correct. Starts up and just rev's up to red-line. I also put in my new vacuum pump o-ring to seal it up nice, no change though. Should I just pull the pump to get it looked at by Giles again? I'm stumped as well as many of my mechanic friends....
:-\
-
I know I am regretting saying this, but is it at all possible that something went wrong when Giles had the pump??
He is human, and humans make mistakes. If you've checked EVERYTHING else, then it is most likely an internal pump problem.
-
I know I am regretting saying this, but is it at all possible that something went wrong when Giles had the pump??
He is human, and humans make mistakes. If you've checked EVERYTHING else, then it is most likely an internal pump problem.
I REALLY wish I had a spare pump to rule out the one I have... I don't want to believe it's the pump, but I'm not sure what it can be at this point. Anything else that can cause this high sticking idle besides something the pump itself? It's sound similar to some threads with injectors issues, and some other posts I've read about the pump not being secure on the bracket... but after replacing the injectors and doubling checking all the bracket bolts and I have no change. I'm going to re-check my timing ONE more time... If it's too advanced I suppose it would be doing this right? but I've checked it so many times and its always the same...
-
take it all apart maybe and start from scratch??
eliminating and possibility of ANYTHING being done incorrectly.. ?
-
take it all apart maybe and start from scratch??
eliminating and possibility of ANYTHING being done incorrectly.. ?
Nothing has changed from when its was running well with the new pump, the behavior just sort of started while it was letting it sit at idle for 20-30mins, and I was just trying to rule everything out one by one after that, BUT I can certainly do just that.
-
Call Giles and talk to him about it. It sure seems strange.
-
Call Giles and talk to him about it. It sure seems strange.
I did give Giles a ring when this issue started; I've tried all the suggestions, Will call again. Thanks everyone.
-
OK, just went and re-did everything. Here are some pics.
TDC on flywheel->
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4065/4418665354_18db796d87.jpg)
Pump sprocket->
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2687/4418665872_74860db019.jpg)
Timing dial after rolling backward to zero out and coming back to TDC->
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4065/4418665518_eefecdbd0e.jpg)
(reads between .96 & .97; Suppose to be .95+/- 0.02mm for my engine according to the bently)
Still stumped...
-
Is the OUT bolt stamped out?
Just going back to this one again. It should be stamped right into the top of the bolt. I couldn't see it in the previous picture. Also, is the IN bolt a IN bolt? It has huge holes in it.
That definitely looks like the correct way to time it.
-
yup, the out bolt is stamped as such
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4016/4418109605_91696e32d7.jpg)
I also removed it this evening just to check; It has one very tiny hole in it and I blew through it to make sure there were no restrictions.
I suppose I can double check the IN bolt as well for the same...
Just checked-> IN bolt has 3 large holes, no restrictions.
-
Remove the out bolt and the pedestal that it is bolted into. Look in the pump and you should be able to see the idle spring (you'll need a flash light)
Move the throttle back and forth to see if the spring compresses and then moves towards the gear end of the pump.
While you have the OUT bolt out, shine a light inside it through the bottom and see if the screen is full of crap, metal fillings or anything abnormal.
Did you happen to re-check your compression when you swapped injectors?
Did you use diesel purge?
-
Yeah, I re-checked compression while I had the injectors out. Everything was between 400-425 same as before. Not stellar numbers, but shouldn't be a problem for now. I'm not exactly sure what I should be seeing with the idle spring, but it does compress when I move the idle. Here are some pictures.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2747/4419109408_7b5e2bfd31.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2679/4419109332_7d7574efe1.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2801/4418343529_ed653d385f.jpg)
I wasn't able to get a good picture when the throttle was turned all the way, but the end of the spring/pin went to about the middle of the opening (hope that makes sense)
-
400-425 shouldn't cause problems. That's more then my old car had.
What you are seeing in the idle spring is normal and a good thing.
It doesn't look like there is much fuel in there?
Anything in the OUT bolt?
-
400-425 shouldn't cause problems. That's more then my old car had.
What you are seeing in the idle spring is normal and a good thing.
It doesn't look like there is much fuel in there?
Anything in the OUT bolt?
The spring is submerged in fuel, It wasn't easy to get pictures without a reflection (you can see reflections of the threads in most of the pictures) I can blow through the out bolt. Is there any sort of or way to test that the out bolt has the proper "flow"?
-
That's good that the pump is full of fuel.
Can you see anything in the OUT bolt though?
Odds are it's flowing the proper amount of fuel. The fuel isn't traveling fast enough out the orifice to wear it out.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/burnyourmoney/4418343529_ed653d385f.jpg)
What is the red arrow pointing to? I can't make it out in the pictures.
-
What is the red arrow pointing to? I can't make it out in the pictures.
That's the reflection of the threads from the hole that the out-bolt screws into, I was using a flashlight. I can take the bolt out again to check for anything caught in there.
-
Oh ok, that's good. I thought it was a spring or something :o
Yeah of you can look in the out bolt that would be good. You may need a magnifying glass, that's what we use at the shop
-
Looked in there best I could, seems clean. Seems like the internal walls of the bolt are like a fine mesh screen? pretty neat. I soaked it in some degreaser just in case. Still no change however...
-
Spoke with Giles a few times today; He had me pull the idle springs/lever and adjust the spline by hand. While it changes the dynamics of how far I can increase the fuel screw before my ramping idle begins, I still can't manage to get to a point when I can start the car and have a steady idle. Looks like I'll be mailing the pump back :(
Now I really hope there IS something wrong internally in the pump; If Giles says the pump is good after he gets it back, then I'm REALLY confused ???
-
Turns out it was the pump after all->
"pulled your pump apart and found the problem. it seems that the drive shaft bushings (bearings) spun inside the main pump housing for some unknown reason. the drive shaft was blue and scored and quite a few more parts inside the pump were damaged."
The pump wasn't the original one that was from my car; I got one that was already modded and rebuilt and was ready to go so who knows what could have gone wrong with it. Anyway Giles fixed it on up under warranty. I'm just out the extra shipping and downtime. :-\ BUT I put the pump back in today and timed it. WOW much easier to get everything running when the pump doesn't have internal problems. Had the car back up and running in no time. Played with the fuel screw and idle a little bit I think I got it dialed in pretty well, just on the edge of smoking... and the idle is what "feels" right since I don't have a tach ;)
All in all I learned A LOT about my diesel; Thanks to everyone in the forum who helped out.
-
Shot the center out of my injector endcap tonight (after peeling out of a parking lot)
WAY TO GO GILES PUMP! hehe... it's still going strong. Will have to make a new endcap, I guess the one from greaseworks wasn't up to the challenge... ::)