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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: SolarSteve on February 13, 2010, 05:41:07 pm
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So I jump in the car to go for a ride to get it hot and then bring it home to chane the oil. I went longer than necessary because there is a trailer for sale a few towns over that I wanted to check out. When I got to the trailer I noticed I had to press unusually hard to stop and noticed a little bit of an oil smell. I stopped on the street infront of the yard where the trailer is and left it running. After about 5 minutes I am walking back to the car and notice a large black puddle under the passenger side of the motor. I quickly shut it off and popped the hood. Oil all over the pass side of the engine getting slung everywhere from the belts. I checked the dipstick and it was dry. Fortunately, I carry a gallon of Rotella with me, so I pour the entire gallon in and it only came 3/4 up the stick. I started it back up and got it home. Just as I was pulling in the driveway did the low light start to flash, it was about a 5 - 8 mile ride home.
I pulled it into the barn and shoved a pan under it and some absorbant material under the rest of the pass side of the car which is dripping oil. I only pulled the top timing belt cover and the cam seal and head look good. Tommorow I plan to really dig into it. I have been looking in the Bentley for where there is high pressure. I can't imagine losing that much oil that fast if it wasn't a pressurised area that developed the leak. It looks like the intermediate shaft has pressurized oil just behind its seal. I would think the bearing on the crank is far enough away from the crank seal to be pressurized, but I don't know.
The only other thing I can think of is that the block cracked on that side of the motor, but I really don't want to think about that and kind of find it hard to believe that the block would just crack.
Any words of wisdom on this matter would really be appreciated.
Thanks
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This is on my 1.6L N/A in my 1991 Jetta, stock motor.
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I would check for a broken gasket. Maybe the oil pan gasket is fighting you or if it was on the hill running the valve cover gasket fought me a lot on my old N/A. While driving it could fly out of the valve cover gasket too. Just guesses, but I bet it is something like that...or a hole in the oil pan. I have had oil pans rust and get real thin one little rock and then you have a nice little hole.
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I checked the back of the valve cover when I got home and its dry. I would thing the leak has to be above the oil pan because it was getting slung all over by the belts, there is oil on the back side of the pass side headlight!
2 years ago or so, I removed and reinstalled the head. While the T-belt was off I replaced the intermediate and crank seals. I remember that I pulled the crank seal carrier when I changed out the seal and it wasn't real easy to reinstall it, I didn't drop the oil pan when I did this, so that might have been why it wasn't easy. I have been driving it for 2 years and about 20,000 miles since, so I figured it was good.
I have never experienced a leak like this before, the amount and quantity in the amount of time that past really makes me think the leak is on a pressurized area, but I don't really know...
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Whats an oil galley plug and how can it cause this?
I didn't really want to drive it home leaking oil like it was, but my options were limited. I figured if the light didn't come on and everything was operating normally, I was OK. After I get the leak fixed, I guess I find out if anything got damaged...
Thanks for your reply
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the oil galleys are drilled into the block after it is cast, and then plugged with a small plug, much like a freeze plug.
I suppose it is possible that one of them failed, but I would expect a cracked block to go along with it(have ever seen one fail on its own)
clean the engine really good, and see if there are any unplugged holes on the end of the block.
also, clean and degrease the motor really good, start it, and look to see where the oil starts coming from.
I'll bet it is the intermediate shaft, the bearing can fail and dump lots of oil into the seal, making it leak like mad.
-Owen
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the oil galleys are drilled into the block after it is cast, and then plugged with a small plug, much like a freeze plug.
I suppose it is possible that one of them failed, but I would expect a cracked block to go along with it(have ever seen one fail on its own)
clean the engine really good, and see if there are any unplugged holes on the end of the block.
also, clean and degrease the motor really good, start it, and look to see where the oil starts coming from.
I'll bet it is the intermediate shaft, the bearing can fail and dump lots of oil into the seal, making it leak like mad.
-Owen
If the IM bearing failed, does the motor need to be pulled to change it?
Thanks
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OK, well I was able to get it home while it was still running, so hopefully I will be OK there. I'm going to get started on it in the morning, maybe I'll get luck and find a missing/loose plug. Does anyone sell these plugs? I am going to check GAP now.
Thank you all very much for the help.
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If the IM bearing failed, does the motor need to be pulled to change it?
Thanks
it might, depends if there is enough room to pull the IM shaft out.
you will definitely have to pull a motor mount or two and tilt the motor quite a bit to get it out, if at all.
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I don't think you got low enough on oil to damage anything really... if you poured a liter in and it brought you to three quarters of the cross hatch.. then you were only a 1/4 liter of oil under the accepted area or so. Isn't the cross hatch in these engines only a liter or liter and a half? either way.. it was still getting oil up top or that buzzer would have come on much sooner..
I just fixed a leaking oil pressure sender on my 1.7 gasser, and the small drip every two seconds was enough to take out 3/4 of a liter over a 110km trip.. so its only a bit bigger then that..I'd say ;)
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I don't think you got low enough on oil to damage anything really... if you poured a liter in and it brought you to three quarters of the cross hatch.. then you were only a 1/4 liter of oil under the accepted area or so. Isn't the cross hatch in these engines only a liter or liter and a half? either way.. it was still getting oil up top or that buzzer would have come on much sooner..
I just fixed a leaking oil pressure sender on my 1.7 gasser, and the small drip every two seconds was enough to take out 3/4 of a liter over a 110km trip.. so its only a bit bigger then that..I'd say ;)
I believe he said a gallon of oil so 3.78L IIRC. Sounds like a lot, I hope your motor is ok! If it wasn't making any odd noises it probably is.
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It seems to me that if a galley plug came out it would empty the pan REALLY fast. I'd guess the IM or crank seal popped out.
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If the IM bearing failed, does the motor need to be pulled to change it?
it might, depends if there is enough room to pull the IM shaft out.
you will definitely have to pull a motor mount or two and tilt the motor quite a bit to get it out, if at all.
I replaced the outer intermediate shaft bearing on mine a few months ago. You need to remove the rear mount and drop the front subframe. The shaft can be pulled through the wheel well. It's tedious...
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Yeah, I added a gallon to get it to 3/4 up the crosshatching on the dipstick... I didn't hear any strange noises from the engine so hopefully I'll be ok there.
I just got the fire lit in the woodstove out in my barn about 30 minutes ago and in another 30 I'll be out there taking things apart. I'll report back as soon as I find something.
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I believe he said a gallon of oil so 3.78L IIRC. Sounds like a lot, I hope your motor is ok! If it wasn't making any odd noises it probably is.
Sorry, I'm Canadian ;) A GALLON. oh man.. that's 3/4 of a liter away from empty.. you say oil light came on just as you hit the driveway.. if it only got down to 7psi at the head when you were already in the driveway.. it shows you had oil pressure the whole ride.. i assume it is fine
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It looks like its the IM shaft seal. I finally got everything pulled off and when I lok at the IM shaft seal through the holes in the IM puley, I can see that the seal is push out about 1/2 way.
Does this mean that the bearing is bad?
Is it possible that I can just get a new seal and install it?
I definately need a new seal and a new T-belt, I'll wait to see what you guys have to say before I order, it Sunday anyway, so nothing is going to be open.
By the way, I haven't really searched the side of the block, but where I did look I did not see any plugs.
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Also, what is the best way to hold the cam from turning while trying to loosen the cam pulley bolt?
Thanks
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Thank you very very much.
I really hope to find the hole plugged. If it is not how do I determine if the bearing is bad, try to wiggle the shaft? If it wiggles it's bad?
Thanks, I'm off to Vinces links and then to pull the belt.
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When I pulled the IM pulley off the shaft the seal was stuck to the back side of the pulley, so I think I should be confident that that was where the oil was coming from. Before I pulled the carrier the shaft had about 1/16 to maybe 1/8 inch play in and out, but no play at all up and down or back and forth. After I pulled the carrier, I noticed the shaft would pull out, but I quickly stopped because I had images of something (maybe the oil pump) disengaging and I wouldn't be able to re-engage it. From what I could see of the bearing with the shaft in place looked ok. But I guess I will pull it out further for a more detailed inspection.
The carrier was pretty gungy and 1 hole was plugged... Could that have caused this? Until I get my parts I am on hold, so I began to clean the hub assy and underside of the car. Everything is dripping oil. This car will never rust. I didn't clean the block yet because I am nervous of getting a bit of sand or something on the exposed IM bearing. After I get the seal and carrier reinstalled I clean up that area.
So, if I pull the IM shaft out I will be able to get it back in place, right?
Thanks
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I really don't think the shaft should slide in/out at all.
You won't have a problem getting the shaft back in, the gears easily line back up all by thereselves.
The other thing, if the seal wanted to pop out a plugged breather would help shove it out. I'd check and make sure the breather isn't plugged including the VC port and like Andrew said, make sure the oil drain behind the IM seal isn't plugged.
If the seal drain was plugged it would push the oil out much faster than if the breather was plugged.
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Do you have a problem with oil coming out the dipstick too?
High block pressure from blowby can push seals out.
There are 2 drain holes in the seal carrier right?
You said one was plugged with grunge?
I don't think one being plugged would cause the seal to push out.
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I have the VC vent vented to outside by means of and extended hose and I plugged the line that goes to the intake. I am going to make sure that is clear. I don't have oil blowing out of the dipstick tube. And only 1 of the 2 holes were plugged and the seal was stuck to the pulley so it had to be spinning with the pulley. This had to be why it was leaking.
I changed out that seal about 2 years ago. This was before I knew that Prothe parts are junk and I ordered an engine seal kit from him, so the seal that leaked is a Prothe seal. I have no idea if it was a crappy seal or some other reason why this happened but it didn't leak for about 2 years and about 20,000 miles. Yesterday I ordered a new seal and O-ring from German Auto Parts.
I have to watch my daughter for a few hours until my wife gets home and then I will go back out and inspect the bearing. I'll report back then.
Also, if I install the T-belt as I install the IM pulley, would doing that keep me from having to loosen the cam pulley?
Thank you all very much for all the help.
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If the timing belt got oil soaked, it should be changed. If you change the timing belt it is recommended to fine tune the cam timing again. You can, of course, install the belt prior to loosening the cam, tension the tensioner, rotate clockwise to TDC and see if the slot in the back of the cam is perfectly aligned. If it is aligned correctly and you know how to achieve proper belt tension, then there is no need to loosen the cam.
Thank you, that is exactly what I was talking about. The belt is only 8 months old, but it got a lot of oil on it and I couldn't see re-using it. Mabey I'll get lucky and everything will line up, if I don't have to loosen that bolt, I'd rather not.
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Once I get the new seal installed and the T-belt/timing done, I am thinking of leaving the crank pulley and acc. belts off for a 2 or 3 minune engine run to be sure this new seal isn't leaking. I know the water pump won't be spinning for that time, do any of you guys think this is a bad idea?
thanks
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I pulled the IM shaft out a bit to inspect the bearing and I really couldn't get a good look at it. The edge looks good and I didn't see any flakes on what I could see. It reinstalled easily.
I drained the remainder of the oil, about 1 quart, maybe. The filter still had oil in it. I looked at the oil and I didn't find any metal. I'm not going to try to cut open the filter,mainly because I would have to use a hacksaw to do it and thats going to make a huge mess. I installed a new filter and added oil the easy way, no valve cover and it goes in NICE. I poured about 1 quart in first with the drain plug
removed to flush out any bits of metal that might have been in there, found none.
I have been doing A LOT of cleaning. I cleaned all of the pulleys, acc and T-belt pulleys as well as the T-belr covers. Disassembled the front right brakes, cleaned reinstalled. Clean the front and rear right side wheels/tires and wiped down what I could get at of the underside, mostly around the engine. This made horrific mess, not to mention the trail I left for 5 miles...
I hope to get my parts tomorrow afternoon and with some luck I will have it running by nighttime.
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Once I get the new seal installed and the T-belt/timing done, I am thinking of leaving the crank pulley and acc. belts off for a 2 or 3 minune engine run to be sure this new seal isn't leaking. I know the water pump won't be spinning for that time, do any of you guys think this is a bad idea?
thanks
If it's full of coolant you should be fine doing that for a few mins... And a darned good idea too.. Beats having to tear everything apart again, and destroying a new t-belt..
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Once I get the new seal installed and the T-belt/timing done, I am thinking of leaving the crank pulley and acc. belts off for a 2 or 3 minune engine run to be sure this new seal isn't leaking. I know the water pump won't be spinning for that time, do any of you guys think this is a bad idea?
thanks
If it's full of coolant you should be fine doing that for a few mins... And a darned good idea too.. Beats having to tear everything apart again, and destroying a new t-belt..
Thanks, thats what I figured, its a pain as it is to install and tighten all the belts so why not test run it without any of them on or the T-belt covers too. I was actually debating reusing the T-belt as new as it was, but then everytime I drive the car I would be worrying about it, so I'm doing the right thing and installing a new one. I don't want to get this one all oily and have to get another one!
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Using a hacksaw to cut the oil filter will result in very large particles of metal getting in the oil and causing you to do a full rebuild for no reason ;D.
I large pipe cutter will do it cleanly.
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or a pair of good shears/tinsnips
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I might try the snips as I have a pair ;D
Also, does the IM seal need any type of sealant or does it go in dry? I will put some lube on the o-ring.
thanks
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I'd throw the lower timing belt cover and waterpump belt on.
You'll still be able to see if it's leaking,..
and the waterpump belt can go on when you put the crank pully on. I think you'll need to put the crank pully on so the belt doesn't run off the edge, it might sit fine, run right in the middle but if it does decide to wonder it might fall right off the crank sprocket.
If you have to put the crank pully back on, might as well have the waterpump belt on it,.. even if it doesn't have the lower cover installed,.. but chances are it won't leak in the first 3 mins and you'll have to put the lower timing belt cover on anyway.
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I'd throw the lower timing belt cover and waterpump belt on.
You'll still be able to see if it's leaking,..
and the waterpump belt can go on when you put the crank pully on. I think you'll need to put the crank pully on so the belt doesn't run off the edge, it might sit fine, run right in the middle but if it does decide to wonder it might fall right off the crank sprocket.
If you have to put the crank pully back on, might as well have the waterpump belt on it,.. even if it doesn't have the lower cover installed,.. but chances are it won't leak in the first 3 mins and you'll have to put the lower timing belt cover on anyway.
I though about this overnight and you have me second guessing my idea! I am now paranoid of the T-belt coming of the crank sproket so I think I'm just going to install the seal and put it all back together again and then check for leaks. I really don't want to be in it for a head and pistons just to see if a seal is leaking.
Thanks
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Am I missing something? Are you afraid of running the engine without timing belt covers?
I have been running my Caddy for 15 years nekkid :o
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At the least I'd put the crank pulley on there to try it. Even I am not brave enough to try it without that....
Libby, the true kick to the balls is when you do finally put the timing covers back on only to have something fly up and break a chunk of it off into the TB.. ::) Irony anyone?
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THE JETTA RIDES AGAIN!!
I got my seal, o-ring and T-belt around 3 pm and started the re-assemble. I made sure the carrier and the block around it were super clean and I pressed the seal into the carrier. Applied grease to the seal lip and installed the carrier/seal assy. I installed the T-belt without loosening the cam sprocket. I kept the pump pinned and the cam locked, made sure the timing marks on the flywheel lined up and just slipped the new belt on. Once it was on and tensioned the pin and the lock plate slid out easily. I rotated the engine 4 times clockwise and then lined up the flywheel marks and the plate and the pin slid back in.
Then I installed the lower T-belt cover and the VC. No crank pulleys, no belts. I figured if the belt wants to walk off, the cover will stop it. I made sure everything was clear and started the engine. It fired on the first crank. I got out and examined the IM, no leaks. I let let it run for about 2 minutes and shut it down.
I finished the re-assembly, fought with the Alt belt for like an hour, put the right wheel back on, lowered it, topped off the oil and fired it back up. Oh yeah, I love the rubber VC gasket, re-used it, no leaks!
Once running I checked over everything, no leaks and I headed for Home Depot. The car really smelt like an oil refinery. I stoped twice to check for leaks. I bought a gallon of this purple degreaser stuff made by Zep and the I went to the DIY carwash. I jacked up the car and pulled the front right wheel and sprayed everything down with the Zep stuff. It worked really well and I got a lot of the oil and sludge off. And finally drove it home and got some dinner.
The new seal seems to have done the trick and it looks like I should be good to go for the drive to work tommorow.
Thank you all very much for the help and advice, this is a wonderful site with many knowlegable poeple who are kind enough to help others, please don't change!
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re my lack of timing belt
Running without the timing covers has never seemed like a good idea to me. I know of several people who have ruined their engines that way. If any of the v-belts ever break, there's a darn good chance that you're engine will be ruined. I know of a couple people who's engines died because of bolts vibrating loose and falling into the timing belt. I know of one from a gob of glue the fellow used on his intake. Another one died from a rock that got tossed up. And my personal favorite is one that died from a plastic grocery bag that was in the street and got sucked up into the timing belt when the fellow drove over it. Grin Despite the imminent destruction of the engine, there are other less dramatic downsides such as water spraying on the timing belt when it is raining and causing the intermediate shaft to slip and consequently the oil pump and vac pump.
I hear you and these are all very good reasons, but all I can say is that I am a careful person and I drive with the awareness that I don't have a timing belt cover. That means that I don't run over things that might pop up under the car etc. We don't have rocks in Florida. I just hate the way the early covers fit....
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I just hate the way the early covers fit....
Funny, I hate the way an engine sounds when it implodes ;) lol