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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: MRTANGOMAN on February 01, 2010, 07:01:57 am
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Hi can any one help me ???
i've had an engine girdle cut, fitted it too the block N/P
But when i've come to bolt the sump on, the sump doesn't clear the bolts @ the flywheel end?????
i've swopped out the "bolts" for 12.9 allen screws which sorted the pulley end but still got problems the flywheel end ...
thought i ask b4 getting the bottles and hammers out ..!!!!
pic of the girdle i've fitted
(http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq108/MRTANGOMAN/3112010004.jpg)
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I can't tell what it is doing in the pic, but maybe if you go to a fastener place and get a Flat socket head cap screw and have the baffle countersunk to accommedate them. The flat socket head should sit under or just at level once it is countersunk and there shouldn't be any interference.
If it is some other problem maybe a better pic would help?
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the 2 bolts @ the flywheel end are hitting the vertical part of the sump. ???(on the the left of the pic)
i've tried fitting allen bolts which cured the problem @ the pulley end
but they still hit @the flywheel end , looked into milling the bolts into the girdle BUT it'll compromise the strength, as it'll be nearly right thro' :o
prob going to have to modify the sump pan ????
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This is what I was referring to...the 3 at the top... (http://imghost.indiamart.com/data/M/J/MY-975763/socket-flat-head-cap-screws-button-head-socket-screws_10819778_250x250.jpg)
I can't tell what you mean by your explination or the pic. Can you get a better pic? How is it hitting the vertical part? Wouldn't it have to get over the horizontal lip to do that?
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Just from pure curiosity, what is the purpose of this mod?
thanks, and good luck,
Kevin
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This is what I was referring to...the 3 at the top... (http://imghost.indiamart.com/data/M/J/MY-975763/socket-flat-head-cap-screws-button-head-socket-screws_10819778_250x250.jpg)
Those are FHCS or Flat Head Cap Screws, for future reference.
The bottom end webbing is weak for a high powered diesel, and the mains girdle helps tie thing together.
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This is what I was referring to...the 3 at the top... (http://imghost.indiamart.com/data/M/J/MY-975763/socket-flat-head-cap-screws-button-head-socket-screws_10819778_250x250.jpg)
I can't tell what you mean by your explination or the pic. Can you get a better pic? How is it hitting the vertical part? Wouldn't it have to get over the horizontal lip to do that?
I don't think they'll be strong enough, as they have to able to torque down and hold the main bearing cap.
i'll try to get some pics later today.
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interesting, I never tried to put the pan on when I mocked up mine, might be worth looking into...
may I ask what you decided to use as spacers between the caps and the girdle?
-Owen
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i had some machine steel spacers made, by the engineering shop..
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Those are FHCS or Flat Head Cap Screws, for future reference.
Yeah see my first post.
Those and all socket steel products are considered a grade 9. They are stamped 12.9 and have a higher tensile strength than a grade 8 HHCS. They are a high carbon bolt and will hold better than anything else you put in there besides weld with good penetration.
The bottom end webbing is weak for a high powered diesel, and the mains girdle helps tie thing together.
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Just from pure curiosity, what is the purpose of this mod?
thanks, and good luck,
Kevin
to stiffen up the bottom end. keep the crank and block from flexing...
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I need one of those, where can I get one *waters at the mouth* what material is it made from? chromoly? forged from a single metal piece or cast? I would like to make one of these and use it in my rig, will make the dry sum def. worth it.
thanks,
Kevin
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I saw one on a build on here and posted up that i needed one.
someone sent me a cad file which i took to the mechine shop and they cut it out for me.
i had to drill the extra hole to fastern it to the block and counter-bore them.
and of course drill and tap the block.
and drill the hole for the dipstick
then modify around where the oil pump sits as the pump wouldn't fit.....
it's been far from easy, but when you've spent ££££ on an engine you don't want it blowin' on the first run out!!!!!
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I need one of those, where can I get one *waters at the mouth* what material is it made from? chromoly? forged from a single metal piece or cast? I would like to make one of these and use it in my rig, will make the dry sum def. worth it.
thanks,
Kevin
how is a block brace going to justify a complicated oiling system? i think you should spend your money on a FAT turbo, or a Giles pump or something, instead of making your simple diesel a complicated diesel. when you complicate things, more things tend to break and go wrong.
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I need one of those, where can I get one *waters at the mouth* what material is it made from? chromoly? forged from a single metal piece or cast? I would like to make one of these and use it in my rig, will make the dry sum def. worth it.
thanks,
Kevin
how is a block brace going to justify a complicated oiling system? i think you should spend your money on a FAT turbo, or a Giles pump or something, instead of making your simple diesel a complicated diesel. when you complicate things, more things tend to break and go wrong.
For those of us that may be running high torque numbers, this is a worthwhile investment.
Some of us wish to exceed 200WHP, this guy included.
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im not trashing on your guys's block braces. they are necessary. but he doesnt have a turbo yet, or a fuel injection pump. and he is talking about dropping almost 1000 dollars into rebuilding used heads. and 300 or something to have his crank lightened and balanced. and who knows how much hes gonna spend making a custom oiling system, when the stock VW oiling system works great. when all is said and done, he is still gonna need a turbo and a good fuel pump. i would skimp in some other areas so i could splurge on a sweet turbo and a giles super pump.
kevin is going to have the most expensive, most complicated engine on the forum. it better make the most horsepower too. ;)
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kevin is going to have the most expensive, most complicated engine on the forum. it better make the most horsepower too. ;)
its also his money ???
let him go for it :)
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kevin is going to have the most expensive, most complicated engine on the forum. it better make the most horsepower too. ;)
its also his money ???
let him go for it :)
if you tell him it cant be done, he just wants to do it more. no matter what the cost.
i was just thinking that with a totalled car and all, he might have better places to be spending all his hard earned cash.
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i was just thinking that with a totalled car and all, he might have better places to be spending all his hard earned cash.
Diesel in the veins - it's pure escapism! 8)
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It's like Crack guys, never touched drugs, of any kind, but I know how one can become addicted. ;) I have fixed the van, and made it reliable, so now I do have another working vehicle...... For Now *bum bum BUUMM, dramatic music plays* I am doing a lot of the work myself, and that being said, will save a lot of money over someone taking it to a shop. All in all, I think I'm doing Darn well for someone just learning about diesels, and for my very first engine build. I have taken this into serious consideration, one because this will make my dry sump more purposeful because of the low oil pan issue "I have weitec's lowered to a ridiculous degree" and two, because I will have a crapload of power/torque going through that bottom end, I can only pray that the stock forged rods will do the trick. I appreciate everyones concern, I know all habiter's say this, but you have to just know that I do, in fact, have it all under control. I will need some of those spacers made, where can I get some. Still mulling about swapping the whole thing into the Spyder, and selling off the 78' and 80'. You have forgotten a very important detail here monetary wise a wise investment that will also be equally important to my build will be, without a doubt, the tranny, and as of yet, I still have to choose which direction to go.
thanks,
Kevin
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Kevin is going to have the most expensive, most complicated engine on the forum. it better make the most horsepower too. ;)
Sounds like someone is jealous a little bit. ;) If Kevin wants to spend every cent he has on making sure his engine does not grenade on that first hotrod run.. why does he have to listen to your harassment and belittlement? I mean come on, in the four posts you made in this thread.. not only did they have absolutely nothing to do with the Topic.. each one of them was a reply to something Kevin said and it was a negative comment. Kevin is well on his way to an amazing machine..
when all is said and done, he is still gonna need a turbo and a good fuel pump. i would skimp in some other areas so i could splurge on a sweet turbo and a Giles super pump.
So what if he still needs a pump and turbo? that's like saying.. "skimp on doing that suspension work, because you still need a windshield to drive the car" If I had the money I know sure as hell I'd buy the most expensive well made parts I could find.. There would not be a used/junkyard part used on my build.. Kevin's doing it how he wants to do it.. Why must you continually bash this? I do not understand.. ::)
Sorry for my rant guys.. RoR usually you provide some good information.. but sometimes your a real dork. Can we not all work together towards a greater good?
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I's totally ok, I understand where he is coming from, He is playing the devil's advocate. It is annoying, and a little disheartening, but informative, and he reminds me to take a few steps back and take another look at the big picture. If it weren't for him, I wouldn't even be building this monster. But back on topic, is there anyone with a 3D type drawing or illustration on how these shims and the pan will work with this on? I am curious as to how all of this will fit together. I understand the theory on how it will work, just not sure how I am to make the necessary shims for the Mains? "is that right?"
Thanks,
Kevin
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I's totally ok, I understand where he is coming from, He is playing the devil's advocate. It is annoying, and a little disheartening, but informative, and he reminds me to take a few steps back and take another look at the big picture. If it weren't for him, I wouldn't even be building this monster. But back on topic, is there anyone with a 3D type drawing or illustration on how these shims and the pan will work with this on? I am curious as to how all of this will fit together. I understand the theory on how it will work, just not sure how I am to make the necessary shims for the Mains? "is that right?"
Thanks,
Kevin
I believe truckwagen has cad for that. He is the supercharged guy on here.
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Guy's we seem to be going off topic abit here ?????
I've not been into the workshop the last few days. So no photos as yet.
As ANYONE fitted one !??????
or seen one when fitted,
PLEASE
As this has got me banging my head with the dam sump
(hopfully it'll make it fit ! LOL)
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Hit the oil pan a little with hammer. If thats not enough, a little cut, hit and weld.
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I'm going to be doing the same thing, and also wondering the same things as you are, will it fit? how, modified pan? I also need some of the screws mentioned here, and if you can manage I would like some of the shims that you had your shop make, for mine. I'll pay, ask anyone who I have bought anything from. Sorry, for the thread jack, just on the same sheet of music here.
thanks,
Kevin
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I'm still having an issue visualizing this... can you take a picture of what's interfering? I'm scratching my head.
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the bolts that go through the girdle into the main cap on the end are interfering with the side of the pan yes?
like the head of the main cap bolt is sticking into the pan gasket area, yes?
if so, I would heat and hammer the edge of the pan to clear them before I countersunk the bolts.
I have not installed my pan yet, but I mocked it up. didnt put the pan on, so I cant say too much about how it would fit.
good luck, its good to see one of these going on a motor!
-Owen
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HEY HEY ;D
IT FITS !!!
The clearance issue was only slight, so with the help of a big rubber hammer and some heat.
i just beat the sump pan on !!!!
Don't need the counter sink the bolts in, so the girdle is still good.
The ends of the sump are hard against the bolts, but i don't want to bend the sump any more.
Its still gotta seal !!
The extra clearance needed was only about .5mm so don't go mad beating your pan fellas !!!!
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Now I seem to understand. You were putting bolts through the girdle for bolting mains down? I figured you would bolt the mains down, put the shim on top of the bolt head once you had an exact measurement, then sent a bolt from the girdle down through the shim.
If I think about your way how do you get the mains torqued? I would think that the girdle would interfere with your torque settings doing it that way.
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PICS or, it didn't happen. :P ;D
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Kevin is going to have the most expensive, most complicated engine on the forum. it better make the most horsepower too. ;)
Sounds like someone is jealous a little bit. ;) If Kevin wants to spend every cent he has on making sure his engine does not grenade on that first hotrod run.. why does he have to listen to your harassment and belittlement? I mean come on, in the four posts you made in this thread.. not only did they have absolutely nothing to do with the Topic.. each one of them was a reply to something Kevin said and it was a negative comment. Kevin is well on his way to an amazing machine..
when all is said and done, he is still gonna need a turbo and a good fuel pump. i would skimp in some other areas so i could splurge on a sweet turbo and a Giles super pump.
So what if he still needs a pump and turbo? that's like saying.. "skimp on doing that suspension work, because you still need a windshield to drive the car" If I had the money I know sure as hell I'd buy the most expensive well made parts I could find.. There would not be a used/junkyard part used on my build.. Kevin's doing it how he wants to do it.. Why must you continually bash this? I do not understand.. ::)
Sorry for my rant guys.. RoR usually you provide some good information.. but sometimes your a real dork. Can we not all work together towards a greater good?
dude, im a broke cracker. everything i do is cheap. im just looking at it from a financial stand point. he just totalled his car jeremy... and why on earth would you need a external 1000 dollar oiling system on a VW diesel? when i tell him something isnt going to work, theres a reason behind it. and i dont sugar coat anything. i have a blunt personality. if i feel something should be said, im not afraid to say it. i really couldnt care less about his build. hes in california, 1500 miles away from me, and theres a good chance that this is all the interacting i will do with any of you before i/you die. and im probably never gonna see his ride that he dropped all the money on. im really trying to get him to focus on (what i think are) the more importand aspects of the build. i mean c'mon, its not like we are building a 5000 horse power hemi headed supercharged fire breathing big block chevy here... its still a VW diesel, its still only gonna turn around 6000 rpms. i feel there is no need for a dry sump oil system. i dont agree with oil lines. they rip off. and bad things happen. ask me how i know?!
ok yet again, im spending too much time justifying myself.
take me or leave me guys, im not changing...
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you know what Kevin, your completely right. You do on this forum and is your country have the right to voice your opinion and your knowledge ;)
I'm pretty much %96 sorry for what I said :P I know he needs to know what works and what don't.. and sugar coating it is definitely what not needs to be done... but you don't gotta use such a crude attitude eh?
$1000 external oiling system on a vw diesel is Kevin's call no? were just here to tell him what will and won't work, and how to properly do what will.. not to tell him what we believe is a waste of money, or what we wouldn't do.
It's all good Kev, just sometimes you come off really rude and mean. you know?
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you know what Kevin, your completely right. You do on this forum and is your country have the right to voice your opinion and your knowledge ;)
I'm pretty much %96 sorry for what I said :P I know he needs to know what works and what don't.. and sugar coating it is definitely what not needs to be done... but you don't gotta use such a crude attitude eh?
$1000 external oiling system on a vw diesel is Kevin's call no? were just here to tell him what will and won't work, and how to properly do what will.. not to tell him what we believe is a waste of money, or what we wouldn't do.
It's all good Kev, just sometimes you come off really rude and mean. you know?
im the first to admit, i can be a real prick sometimes, but im ok with that. i would rather have people hate me for who i am, then love me for someone i am not... i hate fake people.
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said it before and will say it again, Kev really keeps me in-line, I am going to be hardheaded on some things but that's my personality. For the record, it is not a 1,000 dollar oiling system, it is very simple, and will save me a lot of heartache, I do agree that the lines will get a bit complicated and something could go wrong but PVT Murphy's law is always in effect, and something could go wrong anyways. Measure twice cut once. 8)
NOW...... Back on topic details on the girdle, I want some more pics, don't wanna sound pushy, but pics would be really great.
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There are pics of one installed on a block somewhere in TurboJ's build thread. I'm not sure how I found them but they're on either his or AKI's photobucket. I would like to see some other pics also.
How thick is your girdle? Did you have them heattreat the spacers?
Also, wouldn't it partially defeat the porpose of a girdle if your main cap bolts/studs didn't tie into it?
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Pic (http://www.kotinet.com/matti.farm/Scirocco/Moottori/IMG_2594.jpg)
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The girdle is suppost to be bolted through, it supports the main brg caps too.
you make up the spacers to go between the mains and the girdle BIGGER than you need, bolt through the girdle and spacer into the mains and torque down.
you then measure the gap between the block and girdle with feeler blades.
Then mill down the spacers to the gap - 1 tho' ..
Then when you do your re-build, the -1 tho' tightens the girdle down, and keeps everything together at high revs (hopefully) ;D
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got some pixs of the problem..( now sorted !! )
(http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq108/MRTANGOMAN/ENGINE522010004.jpg)
the edge of the bolts are hitting the side walls of the sump.
CURE :- put the allen bolts in and tighten down
check where the bolts hit @ each end
rest the sump on the girdle
break out the gas and warm the points untill red
sit the edge of the sump onto the gridle and hit the sump side ways untill the sump mount bolts line up..
repeat on the other end
badder bing IT FITS !!!!!!
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Ok;
So theirs two Kevins on this site, and apparently we both are working on the higher performance 1.6's.
I'm buying part by part also. Giles pump,turbo and a little more machine work. Good luck with your build and have plenty of pictures!
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Apparently, the name Kevin, is very popular with our given age demographic, and personality. We all seem to love diesels. ;D There are more than two, but I won't tell you who all they are due to privacy issues, if they want to tell you that's up to them. So, as I understand it, the girdle sits on the bottom deck, and is secured with the main bolts. Are there length issues? can the ARP studs be used without issue? the standoffs take up the space left between the top of the mains and the girdle right? for stabilization and the prevention of flexion in the bottom butresses. removing material is unwise? just casting materials to remove extra weight etc. left from the addition of the girdle. "the weight won't be much, I know, but it matters to me. Someone once told me ounces first and the pounds come later ;)"
Thanks,
Kevin
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you need longer main bolts, but any good fastener supplier should be able to get you the appropriate bolts.
as for the weight, they are 11 pounds on the nose.(in 1/2" mild steel)
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http://www.rosten-performance.com/ (http://www.rosten-performance.com/)
has ready-made kits that'll fit our blocks.
also, has anyone heard of the forged mains caps? just about every performance VW site carries them.
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ooohhh! more strength enhancing goodies for the bottom end ;D. Not only will my build pack a mean punch but It will be darn near indestructible.
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I just need to pack on up and move to europe, Screw the states, we don't have any of the good stuff :P a little on the pricey side, too bad no-one manufactures stuff like that here in the states, or inconel, prechambers, or ceramic parts or........ the list goes on
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they are indeed available here in the states, but for about $400.
the spacers that come with the kit still need to be machined down to work with your particular engine
with the girdles I had made it would be very possible to get everything together for $150-$200.
-Owen
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ooohhh! more strength enhancing goodies for the bottom end ;D. Not only will my build pack a mean punch but It will be darn near indestructible.
VWs already are damn near indestructible. i cant blow one up, so thats saying something. and ive tried.
and yea, theres at least 3 or 4 Kevins on the board...
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VWs already are damn near indestructible. i cant blow one up, so thats saying something. and ive tried.
Yup, these engines last forever @150-170hp with stock parts. 8) It´s user error what breaks these.
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VWs already are damn near indestructible. i cant blow one up, so thats saying something. and ive tried.
Yup, these engines last forever @150-170hp with stock parts. 8) It´s user error what breaks these.
yea, to blow up a VW diesel, you either have to be an idiot, not pay attention to your gauges, or you gotta be trying to blow it up. vw did a damn good job building these engines, except for the lack of head bolts. it needs 5 more head bolts, imho.