VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Smokey Eddy on January 24, 2010, 06:17:32 am
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Does anyone have any bookmarks of either of these types of set ups?
I just got a huge Holset off a 6.0L - fresh rebuild on it.
I HAVE to use it. :o ;) ;D
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you could give it to me... ;D
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WHOA ED's GOIN BIG!
sorry no bookmarks. Im an N/a man myself ;)
1: pics of said turbo or we just won't believe you
2: full build thread, or we still won't believe you
3: burnout videos of 1st through 4th gears or.. we still won't believe you
4: HAVE THE TIME OF YOUR FRIGGAN LIFE! We Will Believe In You :)
I hope this works out for you Edmund/Edward/Eduardo :P
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Does anyone have any bookmarks of either of these types of set ups?
I just got a huge Holset off a 6.0L - fresh rebuild on it.
I HAVE to use it. :o ;) ;D
6.0 powersmoke or a 5.9 scummins turbo? HX 35's are supposed to be useable, but anything with a bigger turbine housing is almost useless. hx35's have 6cm turbine housings, while hy35s and have 9cm, and some others have 12cm? turbine housings. you might wanna find out what you have first. might be too big to use no matter how much nitrous you may use to attempt to spool it.
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hahahah ok i should go write down the numbers on it.
here is the compressor housing
It needs a lot of cleaning. It got a little dirty but it still spins as free as my T3.
I know people use this holset on civics... so it cant be THAT big
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/DSC06252.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/DSC06253.jpg)
that is a 1/2 wrench for comparrison
its super dusty.
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What does it say on the Holset tag on it?
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What does it say on the Holset tag on it?
brb :P
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Assy: 3592766
Serial: C 02260899
Model: HX35W
customer: 3592767-03-01/2
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This guy is using the same holset as mine i think?
too bad his link is broken :(
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=2538.285 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=2538.285)
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that guys making 256whp!?
WHOA. Will an 020 hold up to 396ft/lbs tq?? :P
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WOW! I can`t imagine that working even in a compound set up on a 1.9L
I`d really like to see you try though..
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people use these on civics...
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Does anyone have any bookmarks of either of these types of set ups?
I just got a huge Holset off a 6.0L - fresh rebuild on it.
I HAVE to use it. :o ;) ;D
6.0 powersmoke or a 5.9 scummins turbo? HX 35's are supposed to be useable, but anything with a bigger turbine housing is almost useless. hx35's have 6cm turbine housings, while hy35s and have 9cm, and some others have 12cm? turbine housings. you might wanna find out what you have first. might be too big to use no matter how much nitrous you may use to attempt to spool it.
Mine is an HX. We'll see if it's too big :D
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good luck spooling that beast!!
5 stages of nitrous should do it...one for each gear.....haha
BTW comparing to a gas Civic isnt fair...those little bugger have lots of RPM's it get that turbo wheels spinning.
post your progress as you go ed! 8)
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dear god. Do you guys reckon it wont be drivable under normal conditions? Like will i be able to drive it normally because the T3 will still be functioning.
like will the holset be useless without NOS?
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I know that the flanges are totally different on my manifold and on that of the holset.
Any suggestions on how to mount the holset?
Should i try and make runners and have a totally custom exhaust manifold?
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good luck spooling that beast!!
5 stages of nitrous should do it...one for each gear.....haha
BTW comparing to a gas Civic isnt fair...those little bugger have lots of RPM's it get that turbo wheels spinning.
post your progress as you go ed! 8)
im with lucas on this one. if you have a t3 as the SMALL turbo, you aint gonna have squat for low end power. cause a T3 is still a pretty big turbo for these cars. and an HX 35 is HUGE compared to your T3. that HX turbo might start spooling at around 4500-5000 rpms. or just go with the 5 stages of LOL.
and Ed, as for them using them on civics, yea, its possible. its possible to run alot more turbo on those engines. they spin 10000 rpms, not 5000. they will be moving roughly twice the air our diesels are moving. they have SUPER EFFICIENT 16 valve heads on them. and they dont spool an HX 35 till 4500 either. the only hondas you see with holsets this big is straight drag cars.
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maybe find a different turbo to spool the hoslet?
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maybe find a different turbo to spool the hoslet?
thats the only viable option i see here.
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maybe find a different turbo to spool the hoslet?
Why not find a smaller turbo to boost at super low rpms then find one a tad larger than the t3
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Well the whole idea was because i got the holset for free.
If you guys think it's totally impossible then I won't bother. I don't want to spend like 30 hours making manifolds and runners and adding an oil line + return only to find the turbo wont make any pressure because its so large.
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like I said, send it to me ;D
you could probably get it to spool, but you will need a smaller high pressure turbo if you want it to be drivable at all.
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Your idea looks a bit too bluky for the this head (IDI) its tight enough to use 1 o-ring!Also if you look at the pics of my head you would see that we had to machine around the prechambers which could not work with your idea but Your idea would work on a TDI.
Part of the issue with sealing the head to block is due to using a turbo(s) that are not proprely sized which leads to high turbine inlet pressure preventing the exhaust from leaving the cylinders thus increasing cylinder pressures and raising combustion temps also.
The hybrid hx30/hy35 still won't cut it with 29 psi boost/32psi drive pressure and EGT's pegged the whole time.I'll be putting an hx35 compressor onto the hx30 turbine next hoping that is will raise boost and equalize drive psi/boost pressure,Any thoughts?
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This link has tons of insight
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=2538.285 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=2538.285)
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Sounds like the HX will just barely work. Some guys run them by them selves on TDI's. They just had to extensively port the exhaust ports and manifold.
I'm prepared to port the ports more than i already have and make a header for the Holset if need be.
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After doing some reading i've decided that going for just outrageous power numbers isn't work it. You just end up destroying the head.
Almost all the compound IDI's warped their heads. The head studs hold it down where they are but the head lifts between the studs.
Andy2 and Devistator said you would need a steel or cast iron head to make more than 200hp on an IDI. The same issue apparently happens with TDI's.
Citations:
The head is just not up to the challenge for these high hp IDI's.The coolant ports and pre chamber are the week spots.We would need 6 head bolts per cylinder to have any hope of keeping the aluminum from flexing.
All 4 cylinders are leaking so an intake manifold will not fix that.
Daves setup is completely different to mine his engine has smaller pistions (1.6) and has a big single turbo making much lower torque and HP than my setup.With the compound turbos my engine produces lots air flow at lower rpm and having bigger pistons ony helps push the head off.
The last dyno 2 years ago my engine produced 161 whp @ 4250 and 225 torque @ 4000 on only 30 psi and 86cc's fueling and no head or gasket issues.
Now The fueling is 120cc's boost is 50 psi the engine now pulled well past 4500 RPM you do the math?
Sad day for IDI, two of the big ($$$$ and Time, R&D) motor's are dead, and will not be revived. In the light of this I'm putting a celling on IDI power at about 200hp. Both of these cars produced ~200hp but neither could live for any length of time with it.
So for everyone pushing for a powerful, reliable, IDI I would call it quits at about 170. If you are down for the $$$$ and time it takes to push the limit, absolutely I applaud your effort.
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I'll be very happy if my jetta will make Andy2's 161 whp @ 4250 and 225 torque.
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the HX 30 is the one you want with the 6cm turbine housing, not the 35, my bad. either way, you are gonna have a gutless wonder daily driver. and then once you get that big holset to light, the transmission is gonna say "oh HELL NO!!"
if the turbo ever spools, its gonna be like getting hit in the back with a baseball batt.
and yes, the heads actually bend. there are not enough bolts holding them to the block, if there were more bolts in the head, we wouldnt need cast iron heads.
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Are cast iron heads even a viable option at this point? I'm assuming big money is involved.
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iron heads are definitely possible, but due to the scale of production they would likely have to be cast and machined by hand, which is a very costly process unless you have the means to do so yourself.
I would love to get ahold of an iron head for one of these motors, but realistically never will.
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Anyone know the rough specs of "Dave's" build?
i think his screen name was 953 racer or something...
apparently he did it right somehow
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Anyone know the rough specs of "Dave's" build?
i think his screen name was 953 racer or something...
apparently he did it right somehow
AFAIK he did it on one turbo...
edit: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=11698.30 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=11698.30)
Theres his build ed
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oh cheers man
yeah he used a t3/t4
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Why don't you give us the dimensions of that Holset, that should gave some clue to how it would work.
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I figured the part no. would tell us that but alright i'll try... what dimensions are you looking for? the compressor wheel? (the blades in the picture?)
I think its 9cm across (diameter) but im at work right now. I'll clean it up some today at 8:00 after dinner, take some pictures, measurements and the like.
You want how tall the wheel is? the width of the inlet housing? Gimme some qualitative and i'll get you the quantitative.
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sounds like a great turbo to make a pulse jet!
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-your-own-Jet-Engine/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-your-own-Jet-Engine/)
get a couple of those on the back and light em up for your cruise through the valley!
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I figured the part no. would tell us that but alright i'll try... what dimensions are you looking for? the compressor wheel? (the blades in the picture?)
I think its 9cm across (diameter) but im at work right now. I'll clean it up some today at 8:00 after dinner, take some pictures, measurements and the like.
You want how tall the wheel is? the width of the inlet housing? Gimme some qualitative and i'll get you the quantitative.
Both diameters of both wheels, but even just compressor intake and exhaust exducer diameters would tell a lot. And if you also know the turbine A/R, that's all we need :)
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ok!
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http://www.d-series.org/forums/forced-induction/120686-holset-turbo-specs-hy-hx-h1c-wh1c-h1e-wh1e.html (http://www.d-series.org/forums/forced-induction/120686-holset-turbo-specs-hy-hx-h1c-wh1c-h1e-wh1e.html)
HX35:
The 8blade hx35 has a 56mm compressor inducer. This is found on 1995-1998 cummins manual pickups. The compressor flows 52 lb/min according to the compressor map. The bolton BEP housing (0.55 a/r) is enough to push the limit of the compressor. There's several 500whp 8blade hx35 cars out there with the bolt on housing. It reaches 20+psi by 3500rpms in 3rd with 272 cams. Smaller cams would equal a faster spool speed in most cases.
The 7blade hx35 has a 56mm compressor inducer. Mine is the 7 blade This is found on the 1999-2002 cummins manual pickups. The compressor flows 60lb/min according to the compressor map and logged results from a member here. The bolton BEP housing with the hx35 turbine wheel do not SEAM to have enough flow to really reach the potential of 60lb/min. But many have logged over 50lb/min so far and seen 500whp. The stock hx35 12cm^2 twinscroll turbine housing is a t3 flange housing. This mated to a NON-divided runner manifold has produced a 132mph trap speed with a full weight 1g AWD. This is about 600whp. So the flow is there with the stock housing if you use a non-divided manifold. The spool speed of the 7blade hx35 is similar to the 8blade hx35 with 20+ psi by 3500rpms in the bolton housing and by 4000rpms with the stock housing with a non-divided manifold.
HY35:
The hy35 has a smaller turbine wheel than the hx35. And, it has a turbine housing connection that does not allow for a bolton housing to be used. It does not have a divided housing so any t3 manifold can be used effectively with this turbo. It has the same compressor as the 7blade hx35. We don't know if te hy35 turbine wheel and housing is enough to reache the 60lb/min potential of the 56mm 7blade compressor. Some one try it out already!!! It should at least be a faster spooling viable option to the full t3/t4 50-trim.
(http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachments/turbo-system-tech/78378d1197242946-holset-turbos-part-3-hx35.jpg)
Map of the HX35
HX35 comparrison to the HY35 (the HX is the bigger of the two with the divided exhaust port)
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n72/12sec3s/hx35hy351.jpg)
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n72/12sec3s/hx35hy352.jpg)
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n72/12sec3s/hx35hy353.jpg)
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daves engine:
stock block, ported head, his dual plenum manifold, one of those ebay cast exhaust manifolds, giles pump, 3" exhaust, 350hp intercooler. t3/t04e with .63 a/r exhaust turbine. i think up to 35 psi. he revved it to 6 grand too. i think you could use this turbo but it's going to be slow spooling, but since you have the split exhaust inlet you could buy one of the quick spool valves which closes off half of the exhaust turbine, cutting your a/r in half until higher pressures. we were discussing this last week.
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Oh cool, any examples?
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=22893.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=22893.0)
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if you spend 500 dollars on a valve to spool that turbo, im gonna come slap you...
those things are about 5 prices too expensive.
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i posted one on there you can get for 150
http://performancemetalwerkz.webs.com/apps/webstore/ (http://performancemetalwerkz.webs.com/apps/webstore/)
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also, here is a nice little read for you. its from before dave built his car but his turbo sizing is discussed here along with a few other people. i can't believe i've been into this stuff this long haha
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=2434.45 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=2434.45)
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heh thanks guys. If i were to block half of it off i'd make one i think out of waste gate parts :P
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Yeah, DIY is the way to go if you do a valve flap!
Smokey Eddy, do you have measurements of the exhaust side of your Holset?
The compressor side seems quite large at 55 mm. If the turbine is much over 60 mm you will definately need a smaller turbo or a supercharger to spool it up, even a valve won't be enough.
On a 1.6 with extensive head work and custom manifolds, a 60mm turbine would give full boost just before 4000 rpm, WITH a valve... On a compound setup this could work well if you can set it up right.
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Yeah, DIY is the way to go if you do a valve flap!
Smokey Eddy, do you have measurements of the exhaust side of your Holset?
The compressor side seems quite large at 55 mm. If the turbine is much over 60 mm you will definately need a smaller turbo or a supercharger to spool it up, even a valve won't be enough.
On a 1.6 with extensive head work and custom manifolds, a 60mm turbine would give full boost just before 4000 rpm, WITH a valve... On a compound setup this could work well if you can set it up right.
My build is a 1.6 TD MF bottom with a ported 1.9 AAZ head and a ALH intake manifold. I have a FMIC and a big 2.5 inch exhaust from turbo to under the back seats where it Y's to two 2.5 inch pipes that exit infront of the rear tires.
There are two weakspots with my build, the stock exhaust manifold and here is something askew with my IP's fueling (possibly three weakspots seeing as the TDI intake is really quite small.) As it is now i have the pump just cranked for max fueling possible and it barely smokes - certainly not a plume of black. builds boost relatively slowly compared to other's videos i've seen. Never EVER see EGT's over 1,200 and thats with me trying to get them up there doing huge pulls up big hills from 60-100kmh in 4th with my foot to the floor.
Unfortunately I've just been too exhausted after work this week but I don't work tomorrow so i'll have time this evening or at the very latest tomorrow morning. Sorry for the hold up, i really appreciate the input from you guys - i've just been exhausted from 13 hour work days this week.
So my synopsis so far is:
- more fuel (maybe a bigger pump head and definately a lift pump)
- a DIY valve to block half the run out of the turbo
- port my head and intake manifold more, especially the exhaust (I'll really bore it out)
- My Garrett T3 will give the same boost it is now (likely faster with the added porting) and should be able to spool the holset at WOT
- I'll leave the T3's waste gate set to bleed at 20psi and set the holset to limitless... i'll weld the wastegate closed on it.
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Hey Ed be sure you get a video of the head flying through the air when it comes off!!!!!! ;D
Hope it works for you :)
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:P i doubt that will happen. I'm not going too crazy.
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OK! So i confirmed that the exhaust turbine is indeed 60mm and the compressor wheel was about 75-80mm in diameter.
in the midst of taking the compressor wheel off to give it a good clean.
Edit: I actually managed to get it back on exactly where it was when it came off.
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OK! So i confirmed that the exhaust turbine is indeed 60mm and the compressor wheel was about 75-80mm in diameter.
in the midst of taking the compressor wheel off to give it a good clean.
Edit: I actually managed to get it back on exactly where it was when it came off.
that was my next question. cause theres definitely some big balance marks on that compressor. and it needs to be where it was. else the turbo is gonna go *BOOM*
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I have a query however,
When I first tried to undo it i forgot that turbos are reverse threaded... so i pushed a bit... not hard, nothing happened.
I thought, "that's odd?"
Sprayed some WD-40 and waited about 10 minutes
Tried again... and something turned... but it didn't feel like threads on threads... but the ratchets definately turned...
What moved?
I later kicked my self for not remembering, DOH reverse threads... and did it right and it came undone very easily.
I guess i'll have to get it balanced anyways but what turned exactly?
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who knows. maybe the shaft is about broken.
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who knows. maybe the shaft is about broken.
what do you mean about broken?
It spun smoothly and at least 90 degrees... It didn't feel like i was bending anything. It felt like ... if you rolled up two peices of paper intop of each other and rotated the one on the inside... except smooth as glass.
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My t3 will still give the same drivability as it does now even though it's going through the holset would it not?
ie. I'd still see the same boost as i do now, just perhaps slightly more lag due to the added volume of the 2nd turbo and plumbing from the T3 to the HX35
But since its just pressurizing the inlet of the holset and in turn giving the holset a false pressure inside, i'd still get 20 pounds out of the outlet of the holset at full boost on the T3.
Also, the compressor wheel of the holset would be rotating too as it gets fed from the same exhaust that's feeding the t3, so it wouldn't be an impedement of the flow, it may actually slightly improove it, if not build boost of its own ontop of the 20psi.
This brings another item to my attention.
EGT's. Should i get a second EGT set up and measure 1st at the manifold PRE-Holset (the way it is now for my T3) and a second probe & gauge reading PRE-T3/POST-Holset.
Date TBD: Auto CAD drawings of T3/HX35 set up on AAZ head in an MKII engine bay.
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i thought that the hx35 would act as the inlet for fresh air, and then the pressure side of the hx35 feeds into the garret, then the garret goes to an intercooler and then the intake. and on the exhaust side the engine feeds the garret which then dumps into the holset which then dumps into the rest of your exhaust.
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i thought that the hx35 would act as the inlet for fresh air, and then the pressure side of the hx35 feeds into the garret, then the garret goes to an intercooler and then the intake. and on the exhaust side the engine feeds the garret which then dumps into the holset which then dumps into the rest of your exhaust.
If you had the HX35 "cold pressure side" going into the Garrett it would over spool the Garrett tremendously. You want the small turbo to feed the big one. The small one needs to help the big one.
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I just went up to the Drafting floor at work and asked my buddy if he had any autoCAD hand books and i asked him what he thought of my idea.
His response was as follows...
"...
wait what?"
I re-explained, drew some pictures on paint ::)
"Oh my god. That's the craziest thing i've ever heard... :D"
;D ;D ;D ;D
I'm going to draw up the 2 turbos, the back of the engine with the engine mount & bracket and the rest of the engine bay and down pipe.
Just roughly, no real detail - basic dimensions. And i'll figure out on AutoCAD how everything will fit together.
Then I'll take a few screen shots & post the pics. 8)
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compound setups traditionally go like this:
exhaust manifold to high pressure turbo to low pressure turbo to downpipe
air filter to low pressure turbo to high pressure turbo to intake
high pressure turbo being the smaller of the two.
this way the exhaust has less volume to spool the small turbo quickly, and the intake volume after the high pressure compressor is reduced keeping volume induced lag to a minimum.
once the high pressure turbo has spooled and the motor is making enough exhaust gasses to spool the large turbo, the high pressure wastegate opens and the high pressure turbo effectively freewheels.
apparently the risk of overspeeding is low as long as a suitably large wastegate is used to bypass the exhaust past it to the low pressure turbo.
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compound setups traditionally go like this:
exhaust manifold to high pressure turbo to low pressure turbo to downpipe
air filter to low pressure turbo to high pressure turbo to intake
high pressure turbo being the smaller of the two.
this way the exhaust has less volume to spool the small turbo quickly, and the intake volume after the high pressure compressor is reduced keeping volume induced lag to a minimum.
once the high pressure turbo has spooled and the motor is making enough exhaust gasses to spool the large turbo, the high pressure wastegate opens and the high pressure turbo effectively freewheels.
apparently the risk of overspeeding is low as long as a suitably large wastegate is used to bypass the exhaust past it to the low pressure turbo.
But wont the "low pressure" turbo be spinning the "high pressure" turbo from the COLD side.. traditionally backwards to what you would expect.
If you FORCE (the low pressure turbo will make more CFM than the "high pressure" turbo can handle) air through the INTAKE of a turbo it's going to rotate it regardless.
We tend to think the turbine only spins from flow going through the HOT side but will the same effect not result from forcing air through the compressor?
Meaning the wastegate will have no effect on the "high pressure" turbo.
Or does this "just not happen"
I'm trying to think of an analogy...
ok think of a hydro dam where you have a turbine inside a pipe. Now divide the pipe into 2 like on our turbos.
You drop water through one side of it from top to bottom and it spins the other side.
Now think if you sucked the water through the other side from the bottom really fast, like faster than gravity would pull the water through the top half... the turbine will still spin on the top, in the same direction it normally would except WAY faster than it normally would... And any kind of flow restrictor you had on the opposite side of the turbine (meaning the top, the first side) wouldn't make a difference. The top will still spin just as fast because you're forcing it to from the other side.
No?
or am i confused...
I wish you could draw pictures on here.
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the high pressure turbo will not be flowing more CFM than it is used to, the pressure at the inlet will just be higher.
turbos work on differential pressure, they don't care what the inlet pressure is, they will just compress it more.
the wastegate is to vent exhaust gasses from one side of the high pressure turbine to the other, so that it is no longer driven, but all the exhaust gasses still go to the low pressure turbo.
google compound turbo cummins and there should be lots of info on the theory and application of using more than one turbo.
there is even a drag semi with a five stage compound turbo system pushing in excess of 300PSI ;D
-Owen
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300, oh my christ...
I still don't understand how running air through the compressor side of the small turbo isn't going to rotate it's turbine...
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oh it does, but apparently it wont overspeed like it will when driven through the exhaust side, the compressor is designed to push air, not be pushed by it.
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that's so strange :P but cool how it works like that.
It's like god said unto man, "Here is a turbo. It makes boost. You can also force pressure into it and it will just make more."
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most superchargers are just differential devises too, so you can stack them and make more boost without making any of them work harder(outside their efficiency range)
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That's so crazy! Why doesn't everyone do that and run like just insane boost pressures all the time?
is it inefficient?
I see absolutely no downside to having lots and lots of boost.
Eventually it would be like driving with your thumb down on the NOS button all the time. So long as the fuel turning to exhaust that is spinning the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades to make the boost to burn the fuel to make the exhaust to spin the blades.
Pretty straight forward if you ask me.
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oh my WORD
Look at these photos!!!
only 2,500 ft.lbs of torque though ::)
(http://image.dieselpowermag.com/f/10337736+w750+st0/0808dp_27_z+custom_ford_f250_powered_by_cummins+almost_complete_build.jpg)
LOOK how long the HP is over the 1,000 line...
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ford/0808dp_custom_ford_f250_powered_by_cummins/photo_14.html (http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ford/0808dp_custom_ford_f250_powered_by_cummins/photo_14.html)
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its not really about the pressure.
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"Adam decided to build a compound-turbo setup that could handle the drive-pressure spikes caused by running four stages of nitrous. Now Adam has an S362 with a 71mm wheel and a 40mm internal wastegate over an S480 with an 80mm compressor wheel. Before exhaust gases get to the turbos, however, they have to pass by a 50mm external wastegate which connects to a 2-inch diameter pipe and dumps directly into the 5-inch downpipe. With no nitrous and both wastegates shut, Adam will see about 90 psi of boost and over 700 hp from the big Ford. With the 50mm wastegate and internal 40mm wastegate wide-open, the truck only makes about 40 psi of boost, but that number jumps to 95 psi and 1,300 hp once the four stages of nitrous are turned on."
That is interesting that he would use so much NO2 and turbo's at the same time?
Would you not expect to see similar results with just "enough" NO2?
The NO2, contrary to popular belief (but i dont have to tell you guys this), does not act as fuel, the NO2 seperates from one of the Oxygen molecules and it is free to react with the fuel.
Exactly the same principal as forcing lots more atmosphere into the cylinders.
Perhaps the added NO in the mix helps spin the turbo's. But then why would he run the turbos with the waste gates wide open + the NO2?
Maybe im just dumb.
Would closing the waste gates overspool even those big turbos and bad things would happen?
His small turbo is 11mm larger [120% the size of mine](compressor wheel that is) than my holset.
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its not really about the pressure.
Do explain, im listening. =)
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OK! So i confirmed that the exhaust turbine is indeed 60mm and the compressor wheel was about 75-80mm in diameter.
in the midst of taking the compressor wheel off to give it a good clean.
Edit: I actually managed to get it back on exactly where it was when it came off.
that was my next question. cause theres definitely some big balance marks on that compressor. and it needs to be where it was. else the turbo is gonna go *BOOM*
I have spoke to multiple turbo shops G-Pop in cluded and turbines and compressor wheels are not balanced together. They are balanced indepently. And only need balanced if material has been removed or moved from contact with the housing or bending the blades. But it is a wise move to balance them any time you rebuild a turbo just to be sure.
Also when compounding turbos you do just that you are compounding boost. So 20 from one in to the other making 20 doesn't equal 40psi.
a turbo pushing 20psi will have a pressure ratio of about 2.39
When running twins both turbos should be setup so they push close to the same pressure ratio.
So 14.7x2.39(1st stage)x2.39(2nd)= 83.96 psia or 69.26 psig thats alot of boost for a 1.6 idi even a tdi.
Both making 10psi:
14.7x1.71x1.71= 42.98psia or 28.28psig
maybe a better option but the holset would be to large and inefficent. You'd be better off with 2 stock t3s or a stocker and a merc .48 turbine as the second
Just my 2 cents. I've been looking into this myself.
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its not really about the pressure.
Do explain, im listening. =)
Its all about the amount of air in an engine not the pressure. Pressure is a measure of air but if an engine flows more it could ingest more air at a lower pressure.
Check out http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml (http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml)
Doesn't have a way to calculate twins but interesting in the calculations. Try different engine sizes and such and see what happens to the cfm numbers.
For our diesels i use 20:1 air fuel ratio and .48 BSFC 74% VE as a baseline.
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That's why it's so important to port and use larger valves and less restrictive manifolds with compound turbos.
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Would my AAZ head do ok?
Im going to port it out like ... almost the maximum tolerances and get it smooth as glass.
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foxracer1, im pretty sure it's going to be too big also. Sigh.
oh well. see how it goes. It's all just for fun.
im going to learn Auto CAD and some metal fab skills so im not going to be too upset if it doesn't work.
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autocad will serve you well in the future.
do you have a copy of it?
the copy I bought four years ago was by far the best $400 I have ever spent on school.
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I got a copy for free and the drafters at work have tons of manuals on it. they're also helping me :P well the two young guys anyways
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i think it will work, daves car didn't fully spool till around 4-4500.plus u still get the spool of the stock t3 which many people say is too big but i think not. not that i have much experience with it, but they spool pretty quick on a modded td, i mean i could always hit 25 psi way before stock red line, and you're going to need to rev far beyond the redline to make good power and make the hx usable in any practicle way
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4500 or so is when it will come on? no thanks... im almost ready to shift by then. i dont want my low pressure turbo to JUST be coming on at that point.
*pssst*..... hey... ED!
i know how you could spool it before 4500...
give your car a shot of laughing gas. the cummins guys use nitrous as a crutch when the turbos are too big. and besides, who else is running nitrous on the board?
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yes, nitrous is an option.
if im going 70km/hr on 195/65/r15's in 2nd gear what rpm is my engine at?
my jetta is a '90 4dr; Had wolfsberg emblems on the front fenders (dunno if that means its a wolfsberg)
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You do not know your tranny code?
is it screaming doing 100 in fifth or just crusin?
seems 90's diesel only came with 2 trans..
AGS (86-90 1.6 Diesel) 3.94 3.45 1.94 1.29 0.91 0.75
AWY ('90 Diesel) 3.94 3.45 1.94 1.44 1.13 0.89
But both and most 020's have the same gearing for 2nd fear 1.94 or 2.12 few variations.. but they came on 4 speeds and other cars.. not 90 jetta's :P ACCORDING TO THIS NIFTY WEBSITE; http://www.scirocco.org/gears/ (http://www.scirocco.org/gears/)
you will do 4660RPM doing 70 in 2nd gear :)
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oh so i have lots to go.
it sounds really cool after 4,500, kinds scary though..
definately not screaming at 100.... after 110 it actually builds boost and will take me to 160 quick.
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My whole reasoning behind the holset idea is that it will only cost me time because i got the holset for free.
The advantages would be:
- I lean Auto CAD
- I practice some metal fab
- And maybe it will actually work
The Disadvantages would be:
- I spend a lot of time making something that doesn't do anything
- I spend a few bucks on pipe and oil lines that I won't need if it doesn't work
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god, the whole MPH to KM difference really confuses me sometimes. i looked up and saw...
definately not screaming at 100.... after 110 it actually builds boost and will take me to 160 quick.
i was thinking... "HOLY SH**... his car goes 160?!?!! i guess my rabbit isnt that fast after all" but then i remembered your canadian. the fastest ive ever had my rabbit going was around 135 mph on a decent straight stretch. who knows how many rpm it was, but it was screaming. about ready for take off if you ask me...
160 is close to 100 mph or something isnt it?
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Hahahahhahaha!
Yupp that's exactly 100mph.
I dunno how fast my car will go. I haven't tried yet.
My wheels are unbalanced so i don't like to go much over 140 usually.
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i cant wait to re-do my pump. and plumb up my K24.
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compound+spoolvalve u should have no trouble
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compound+spoolvalve u should have no trouble
That's what i think too. The valve is a must though. or else nothing is going to happen.
I also need to increase the fueling somehow. I can't afford a Gilles Pump. (not even close)
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people use these on civics...
Civics flow more air than any VW diesel.
the high pressure wastegate opens and the high pressure turbo effectively freewheels.
Thats not how compounds work, they share the load of compressing the air. If you feed 15psi into the high pressure turbo, the HP turbo will multiply that by whatever ratio its set to produce.
What you're describing is a sequential system where the LP turbo completely takes over. That would require a bypass on the inlet side to equalize pressure on both sides of the small turbo's compressor and a large wastegate to flow the exhaust around the turbine.
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compound+spoolvalve u should have no trouble
That's what i think too. The valve is a must though. or else nothing is going to happen.
I also need to increase the fueling somehow. I can't afford a Gilles Pump. (not even close)
maybe not, the first turbo is going to be making more air move through your engine and spooling the second turbo much faster. a spool valve could make it too fast send ur head flying.
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people use these on civics...
Civics flow more air than any VW diesel.
the high pressure wastegate opens and the high pressure turbo effectively freewheels.
Thats not how compounds work, they share the load of compressing the air. If you feed 15psi into the high pressure turbo, the HP turbo will multiply that by whatever ratio its set to produce.
What you're describing is a sequential system where the LP turbo completely takes over. That would require a bypass on the inlet side to equalize pressure on both sides of the small turbo's compressor and a large wastegate to flow the exhaust around the turbine.
neither one of you are completely right...
ok, so when the drive pressure is too much on the high pressure turbo, the wastegate opens, and starts dumping the spare exhaust at the low pressure turbo. (but keeps the HP turbo spinning still) the turbo doesnt freewheel, its still spinning and making boost, the wastegate is just partially open too. its still a compount setup. if it had all the valves like you are talking, then it would be a sequential setup.
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I'm confident that with the right plumbing and exhaust flow out of the 1.9L head the T3 will still boost the engine just the same as it does RIGHT NOW and that with a proportional spool valve (meaning it would open and close with a lever) I might be able to control the hx35 and the added exhaust restriction of the second exhaust turbine.
the auto CAD drawing is coming very slowly, it's very time consuming to get it right.
If anyone has a CAD drawing of our head or a turbo i'd greatly appreciate a copy :D
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neither one of you are completely right.
Nope. Read it again.