VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: zukinattor on November 08, 2005, 05:44:28 pm
-
anyone know what the setting is using a timing lite?i have a 1.6 td in a tracker so it is a little hard to get a dial gauge in the vehicle was dialed on the bench before install, and is a daily driver just want to experiment thnks:?:
-
Umm, I don't think you can use a timing light on a TD. No spark plugs...
-
yes you can with an interface unit that clamps on the inj. line and you clamp your tim :D ing lite to it.you can also monitor rpm
-
I am familiar with the pulse sensing tachometer, but every timing light I've ever seen needs an inductive current to operate.
-
Timing light? Even if it could fire what are you going to point it at? Say you did have a degree scale on your TD how many degrees BTDC or ATDC would you set the timing at as there are no specs for that?
-
the tdc mark my snap on lite can advance retard the mark
-
suppose you could pull the vacuum pump and install a gasser dizzy but even with that and a degree wheel on the crank i do not see how you could time the engine.
-
i have and i 've used a piazzo clamp on my injector lines to give my timing light a reading...my light had some issues..i may have to use it soon like today or tommarrow..as my pump will not work with my dial indicator..the plunger has too much lift.. ie the plunger is fully extended before it reachs the bottom of the plunger travel...i have alonger throw adapte rto try but the timing light idea would work the same way especailly if its a digital style ..program in say 28 degreees and boom turn the pump while its ruinning and stop it when its at the right setting.. the dodge deisel and tractor guys use it sometimes.. its very accurate if your piazzo is clamped correctly. piers in bc ha sdone this and spill port time is very very accrurate...also.....any how both snapon and mac make diesel piazzo injection line clamp timing light adapters..i can look up my adapters compnay but it was very nice but a lot less then the sanpon..snap on my wallet haha my friend blakes dad has had and used a piazzo style along with the dial indicator for over ten years ..so its not something new ...and it works fine
let us know how its works for you
thanks
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
-
i have and i 've used a piazzo clamp on my injector lines to give my timing light a reading...my light had some issues..i may have to use it soon like today or tommarrow..as my pump will not work with my dial indicator..the plunger has too much lift.. ie the plunger is fully extended before it reachs the bottom of the plunger travel...i have alonger throw adapte rto try but the timing light idea would work the same way especailly if its a digital style ..program in say 28 degreees and boom turn the pump while its ruinning and stop it when its at the right setting.. the dodge deisel and tractor guys use it sometimes.. its very accurate if your piazzo is clamped correctly. piers in bc ha sdone this and spill port time is very very accrurate...also.....any how both snapon and mac make diesel piazzo injection line clamp timing light adapters..i can look up my adapters compnay but it was very nice but a lot less then the sanpon..snap on my wallet haha my friend blakes dad has had and used a piazzo style along with the dial indicator for over ten years ..so its not something new ...and it works fine
let us know how its works for you
thanks
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
Uhm, what you mentioned about the Dodge guys isn`t quite true. My older brother is the head mechanic at Cummins Mid-West and he explained that while they due use an inductive set-up described above, they only use it to fine tune after static timing has been established by other methods.
-
well I've used it and my friends have used it ..I have a twin turbo cummins pickup myself..I guess I don't count ....either way you have to static time any thing you put together ie cummins , tdi, vw idi , perkins, detroit etc and the fine tuning is what the dial indicator, or spill port, or timing light is for....
thanks
Deo
\x/ Hillfolk!
-
the swap IS running but would like to experiment. i did the dial method on the bench . sorry should have stated that . thnks , :D will edit
-
I've used one, quite a simple concept.
Clamp a piezo electric sensor to number one injection pipe.
a wire goes to a box.
upon the box in a loop of hard wire on which you attach your inductive pick up for a timing light.
That triggers the timing light.
Set to 12* BTDC using the marks on the flywheel.
-
Granted that it's simple in concept, but a 'timing light' is an inductive current device for spark ignition engines, not an injector pump adjuster for diesels. One can't simply clamp the lead to the #1 fuel line and expect it to work. The 'proper' technique is to use a micrometer to make adjustments to the hundreth of a milimeter. I challenge anyone to show me a 'timing light' that sensitive.
Furthermore, to ask such a question on one's first post, without sufficient amplification to show one has some clue as to what one is doing, is to show a remarkable naivete.
I'm happy to see that zukinattor has added enough info to suggest that he's not a troll... :wink:
-
To answer the question you originally asked. Noone knows the timing spec for using a timing light. You are breaking ground. If you insist that your method is easier than the conventional one, I would suggest that you use another vehicle for determining the spec. You should use a similar model engine with *new* injectors and rebuilt pump and set the timing correctly. Then measure the timing on that engine to determine the spec for yours. Personally I think the dial indicator is the way to go. If using the indicator is too difficult I would go by ear. If installing the dial indicator on the pump is difficult, how the heck do you service the engine??
Andrew
Here's some info I found out with my Quantum TD when I first owned it:
Initial mpg(imp) 35 - 45[town to-long-run]
I then locked cam with a steel rule and feeler gauges to take up slack and found:
Cam was out from crank: flywheel being advanced by 1 1/2 teeth or 1/2" on circumference... This equates to about 4 degrees.
I then reset cam/crank and measured pump conventionally.: piston thrust @ TDC 0.88mm Reset to 1.0mm and new mileage was 40 - 50 mpg [imp] or a 10% improvement. Economy finally improved to 60mpg[imp] 50USA by tweeking of the spaceship to suite my driving requirements...
Whilst sorting this out I made the following observation: Total possible travel for piston was 90 thou [2.3mm] the cam profile was such that: piston thrust was 2 thou/flywheel tooth at start and peaking at 5 thou per flywheel tooth [0.127mm](slope of cam plate)
THUS
Within the working range 1 flywheel tooth advance gives roughly 0.13mm 'piston' advance...
Not sure how this helps unless it is possible to lock pump and sprocket and then with cam sprocket loose rotate pump until proportion of flywheel tooth required is visible... Then unlock pump and return crank to TDC. Retighten cam. You have now advanced pump by your predetermined amount
ie half flywheel tooth is 0.06 mm or 1.06 on a 1.6TD (assuming standard setting to begin with.)
What is lacking is the total arc of the cam rise in terms of # of flywheel teeth and the length of the linear portion; the latter not being so important as vehicle operates on middle of the slope...
-
vw rcer the timing light doesn't just clamp the #1 injection line..it uses a piazzo that clamps on the injection line...they are very very sensitive ..it works by senseing the metal flew or expansion when the pump fires fuel ..the injection lines all flew under the pump pressure..so thats how the timing light with a piazzo adapter works..
thanks
deo
\x/ hillfolk!
-
12 degrees is the oem spec for 1mm on the dial indicator? thnks :D
-
well I've used it and my friends have used it ..I have a twin turbo cummins pickup myself..I guess I don't count ....either way you have to static time any thing you put together ie cummins , tdi, vw idi , perkins, detroit etc and the fine tuning is what the dial indicator, or spill port, or timing light is for....
thanks
Deo
\x/ Hillfolk!
Nonetheless I believe what he`s implying above is that you can use the inductive setup to establish the correct IP timing irregaurdless of how far out of wack it is and that`s not the route I`d take. Piezo sensors have thier limitations as well,..... :wink: :wink:
-
that is not waht i was impliming..the injection pump can only be moved soo much in its adjusting slots so if you are out on your static timing..your screwed and have to reset th et belt..this whole thread was just about using a timing light to time the engine..you setill needede to lock and set the t belt and pump up correctly before using the t belt...i if you locked the pump and cam and had th et belt correctly set and the pump body wa sin teh middle of it adjustment range..then yes you could use the piazzo and timing light do turn the pump as it was running to waht ever setting that was in the range of the pump movement ..that you'd like and then tighten it down.
thanks
later
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
-
that is not waht i was impliming..the injection pump can only be moved soo much in its adjusting slots so if you are out on your static timing..your screwed and have to reset th et belt..this whole thread was just about using a timing light to time the engine..you setill needede to lock and set the t belt and pump up correctly before using the t belt...i if you locked the pump and cam and had th et belt correctly set and the pump body wa sin teh middle of it adjustment range..then yes you could use the piazzo and timing light do turn the pump as it was running to waht ever setting that was in the range of the pump movement ..that you'd like and then tighten it down.
thanks
later
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
Granted an inductive set-up like the Snap-on MT257A Diesel pulse adaptor offers the advantage of convenience in rare stuations like the Suzi mentioned above but it`s hard to justify that conveniece when Snap-on charges $333.40 for it. This is contrasted with dial gauge kits which can be had for as little as $50 on ebay and require nothing more than a little patiance and practice to give results comparable to the pulse adaptor. You haven`t convinced me to throw out my dial gauge kit yet :wink: !
For what it`s worth, the MT257A uses a Motorola MC2585A piezo sensor(there are some that use a similar item from Ongura) which is a quartz crystal unit. The MC2585A is part of a tuned circuit oscillator know more specifically as a resonant tank circuit and this particular circuit offers a high degree of frequency stability over other similar circuits. In this application the adaptor makes use of the fact that the quartz crystal produces a very weak voltage when it is placed under mechanical stress(in this case the expansion of the injector line) to produce a signal that can be used by a conventional timing light. The tank circuits` main downfall here also happens to be its chief advantage in this application, namly it`s sensitivity. It has a tendancy in situation where there is a lot of ambiant noise, to pick up pretty much anything it "hears" as a pulse and(I may be mistaken here, someone correct me if I am)this is the reason Snap-on recommends that it not be used in common rail set-ups.
My 2 cents,
N. 8) 8)