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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: dubCanuck1 on November 07, 2005, 11:29:39 am
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Hi all,
I'll be pulling the TD from the 92 Jetta later this month. It's my dad's car and I'd like to give him a modest performance boost, but don't want to go overboard. Here's my list of ideas.
Engine work (New rings, seals, etc...)
GTD Injectors
Intercooler
Boost gauge
Modified boost
New clutch/lightened flywheel (The old one's dead, so I might as well get him a decent part to replace it)
Governor-ectomy (has anyone figured out an "in-between" solution for this; one that allows for more RPM's but still has some protection against over-reving.)
So, knowing that when you do one thing, you often have to follow up with another, which order do you recommend I do these things in? I'd like to bang off the easy ones first.
I'm definitely doing the Engine work first with the engine out. I will do the remainder with the engine back in the car.
Please, if you could give some recommendations for the bester I/C to use. I'll start scouring the salvage yards.
As well let me know combinations of the other stuff you have seen work well in the past.
Thanks all.
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No ideas? I don't need the DIY's, just an order of procession for those who have done the workup.
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which order do you recommend I do these things in?
I'll start:
* Engine work. Use a 1.9TD head gasket just because it's stronger and it doesn't cost much more.
* Governor-ectomy - it may be easier to do this while the engine's out. Partially compress the spring with some washers instead of fully compressing it so that the fueling will still drop off before RPM gets too high. Nice use of "ectomy" by the way! Does your dad's car have a tachometer?
* Clutch / flywheel. A stock 16v setup might do the trick if you can get it for cheap. Shaving the flywheel is an option.
* While you are timing the fuel pump, set it to 1.05mm. Common setting is 0.90 to 0.95mm but 1.05mm performs better and is acceptable according to the Bentley and the community here.
* Upgrade exhaust. 2 1/4" or 2 1/2" diameter all the way from turbo to tip.
* Intercooler.
* Boost gauge.
* GTD Injectors.
* Raise boost. You'll need to adjust fueling on the pump so that the turbo can get enough energy to meet your boost demand, quicker too.
Have you considered a EGT gauge? I know you want to tune the TD only modestly but if the engine is going to be out of the car it'll be very easy to get that manifold drilled for a thermocouple. You can drill into the manifold, safely remove metal shavings inside, and then plug it for now. This is a 5 cent job and would save the hassle for later. You never know if your dad wants more power later. :D I think most thermocouples use 1/8" NPT threading.
If no EGT gauge, then I suppose you will keep the visible exhaust smoke very light. In my opinion the K14 turbo boost shouldn't exceed 14 to 16 PSI, and K24 or T3 16 to 18 PSI. With an EGT gauge you can tune it a little more...
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Thanks for the post Mark. The car does have a tach. I guess if I give it longer legs with the governor mod, I'd have to get a new tach or recalibrate (if possible).
I'll make a point to do the EGT guage while the engine's on the stand (I should probably put one on my engine while it's out too). I like doing mods that allow you to monitor your car's behaviour and health, so I'll make the executive decision on that one (considering I'm the car's caretaker).
I'm assuming setting the pump to 1.05 will be sufficient to run more boost?
Would there be benefit in getting a G-Tech unit? I have 3 diesel cars and 4 diesel engines :lol: . Is this solely for performance measurement or does it help with diagnostics too?
And lastly, I'm going to be shopping for the intercooler for a while I think. What's a good one to run that won't cause me headaches. You're running an air/water one, aren't you? How's that working? Would you recommend using one?
Muchly appreciated, once again.
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I would not recommend an air/water intercooler. It's expensive if you want it to work efficiently and it's more complicated than an air/air. I don't mind personally because I'd like to tinker with it and I think it can be made reliable as it's a relatively simple system. It gets a little tight in the engine bay though!
I still have a FMIC (Front-Mounted Intercooler) on the shelf that we're considering installing because I would otherwise need to purchase a proper a/w intercooler pump that may cost around $400 USD, and my budget's pretty tight now. Soon I'm going to see how efficient the a/w is for short and occasional bursts by using a regular fuel pump from a gas MK2 (to circulate the water). If that WON'T perform well for until the day I can buy a proper water pump, then FMIC it is. a/w later for another diesel project.
For almost all applications an air/air is more than good enough. You can pick up a used TDI intercooler from a MK3 or MK4 at a yard if it's cheap. I don't know of any other junkyard intercoolers in particular that are cheap and efficient. Perhaps someone else can chime in on this.
No need for an alternative tach. By the time the OEM tach needle stops moving past 4,500 RPM, there isn't much power to be had. That's just in my experience though, others' may differ. The governor mod really improves performance from approximately 2,800 and up. To remain in the peak powerband you'd shift around 4.5k RPM. The OEM tach is safe especially if the governor mod's mild.
I like the Gtech because I test a lot of cars with it. It's most useful for comparing before/after modifications. The 1.8L 8v gas vs. 1.6TD difference on the first page of my Gtech #2 thread is the finest example. The GTech also works well as a tach and shift-light. On its LCD display it draws the engine redline you set, so 4,500 RPM redline + shift light is no problem. I have a Gtech RR but the Gtech Competition from ebay.com may be a more economical choice. I don't know all the features it lacks that Gtech RR has though. When my 1.6TD is "fully tuned" my Gtech RR will likely go back on the shelf for some time, except for some TDI customers who request it. It's not always gonna be used constantly.
The EGT gauge is quite expensive so it may not be worth getting if you're really only going to tune the car moderately. But you can still drill in the manifold and plug it just in case. Or plug it with a thermocouple only and buy a EGT gauge separately later. I agree it's nice to watch the car's health though.
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So I just got off the phone with Concept1. They have the gauge (just the gauge) for $195 CDN. Where would I find the sensor and how much would it cost?
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Don't forget to open up that exhaust. It made a huge difference on my 91 Jetta TD. I put a 2.5" from the turbo on back.
Also here is a good EGT gage, http://www.dieselpage.com/issev1.htm
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Don't forget to open up that exhaust. It made a huge difference on my 91 Jetta TD. I put a 2.5" from the turbo on back.
Also here is a good EGT gage, http://www.dieselpage.com/issev1.htm
I've seen that gauge in action (0-1,800F reading, pre-turbo) and would recommend it too. If I were to buy a EGT gauge again I would choose that instead of the Autometer I have.
My silver Autometer pyrometer kit (EGT) complete with thermocouple from Lordco cost about $200 CAD (regular price).
Ditto on the exhaust.. Passenger Performance sells TD downpipes (I don't know of any other vendor that sells TD downpipes) and getting the rest of the exhaust done (end of downpipe to the tip) won't be expensive if you or a friend can cut & weld.
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Ditto on the exhaust.. Passenger Performance sells TD downpipes (I don't know of any other vendor that sells TD downpipes) and getting the rest of the exhaust done (end of downpipe to the tip) won't be expensive if you or a friend can cut & weld.
Yeah, I was looking at those. I may just have to get one. I'd say that's down the road a little though.
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Anyone know of a metric pyrometer?
I wasn't taught Farenheit at school! it confuses the hell out of me!
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Anyone know of a metric pyrometer?
I wasn't taught Farenheit at school! it confuses the hell out of me!
hehe, I'm the same way about celcius....but I hate inches...go figure.
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My Longacres pyrometer has a switch at the top to select between metric and English.
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I would like a metric pyrometer too, I've thought about it for a while. Same goes for Bar instead of PSI in a boost gauge. And celsius instead of fahrenheit for fluid temperatures.
Greddy gauges are all metric I believe, but they're expensive. They do have nice integrated warning lights though (even in 2 1/12" gauges). When I have loads of $ I'll probably swap out all my Autometer gauges for Greddy or a metric gauge set.
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i would like a metric instrument cluster and gauges too.
i dont use the american system of measurment anymore. its terribly old fashoned.
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Audi 5000 turbo has a nice intercooler and i heard its very efficient!!!
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so what is a good exhaust piping size for the 1.6TD? from turbo to end.
P.S thanks dubcanuck for telling me about this site, i think im gonna learn a lot aboot me car :)
oh and a 1.9 TDI head gasket fits on a 1.6? what else can be used from a TDI? im going crazy thinking of the things to do to my car, just basic enginge conditioning for now. 8)
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2.5'' is a great size from the turbo back, get a mandrel bent exhaust for the best flow I sell the 2.5" downpipes needed for this. Exhaust should be the first thing you should worry about before modding naything else, you need to get rid of the terrible stock restrictive exhaust. The 1.9 gasket is a 1.9td not tdi, This won't really do anything for you unless you are running a lot of boost, like 35psi or more. However if you do have the head off the metal 1.9 gasket isn't much more so you might as well put that in along with new head bolts. I like the ideas of headstuds but don't seem very necessary as I haven't seen a headgasket blow since I started using the 1.9 gaskets. Our shop is only about 3 hours from kamloops so if you need anything or any work done let us know. Welcome to the board.
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thanks, so the exhaust i should do eh? Good cause i wanna get my magnaflow DTM exhaust soon, and get all the piping done. already got a K&N air filter, so the intake is good, now just to do the exhaust, that'll make my car breath easier. then i'll get some new injectors, any ideas?
ill be doing work on my car in the spring, so maybe ill stop by one day and get that piping. how about a deal for a fellow diesel addict? :D
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No problem there zagarus. In the world of IDI engines, these guys have some serious gray matter. It's helped me out tremendously.
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Yes definately do the exhaust, I would say this should be the first mod for these IDI diesels. For injectors get the GTD nozzles. I can install these for you and yes there are always deals for diesel addicts getting some work done. :D
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hey, pm how much to install the nozzles in a 93 golf td aaz, and how much performance increase woudl they net?
Yes definately do the exhaust, I would say this should be the first mod for these IDI diesels. For injectors get the GTD nozzles. I can install these for you and yes there are always deals for diesel addicts getting some work done. :D
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I'm gonna second the exhaust... due to age, my Golf with AAZ got a temporary exhaust-ectomy (hey, I like these ectomies), and I got a noticable power gain, and no noise addition... just a change of the sound coming out, at the same level.
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OK. It's time to start. I have a week off after Christmas, so the 1.6 TD's going into the garage for some Holiday cheer.
Here's the shopping list.......
1. 1.9 TD Head Gasket (Is this the copper one? Does it make a difference?). Where would I get this? I remember somewhere someone had a link to it.)
2. New rings (I won't be able to send the block out to get honed, so hopefully it's not too messy in there).
3. Some washers for the governor mod.
4. Audi 5000 Intercooler
5. Intercooler tubing (someone have a good cheap source for this?)
6. EGT guage and thermocouple (in metric......who's got a link for both?)
7. Oil pan gasket
8. Valve cover gasket
9. Boost guage (needed? Opinions....)
10. Turbo examination (I'll send pics to identify which one it is.) and rebuild if necessary (I know one of you has a rebuild kit. I just can't remember who.)
11. Full Synthetic treatment post-new gaskets.
12. Increase boost
13. Fangled new downpipe from the BC boyz.
OK folks. Here's the part I need your help for. I have this awesome shopping list, now I need a list of tools that I need to get it done. I have most of the goodies to turn wrenches, bolts, odd-shaped 12-sided bits, and whatnot. It's the other stuff that I don't know about (spring compressors, ring compression tools, goofy lubes.....let me have it.)
Also, after doing the governor'ectomy, do I have to re-time the fuel pump? What tools would be necessary for that?
Items not on the docket for this round....
1. GTD Injectors (apparently they don't offer much by way of performance at this level - here comes the debate....)
2. rebuld of anything in the head
3. Injector rebuild (which I should really consider.....)
4. Clutch and lightened flywheel.
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Thanks Andrew,
Do you have a source or website for those? For a lower baffle, I was thinking of getting the lower baffle that came with the Golf Country. I'm pretty sure it would do the trick.
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Hey dubcanuck1, we can supply you with the following:
1.9 metal headgasket
audi 5000 intercooler
electronic boost controller
windage pan with integrated rubber oil pan gasket (I think this is what you meant by oil baffle)
rubber valve cover which requires the valve cover studs without the step (We have those too)
2.5" mandrel bent dp along with flex pipe and extra flanges to weld your exhaust system so it is detachable
Turbo rebuild including shaft balance and polish.
These items are available to everyone we just haven't had time to get them up on the website yet.
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Can you PM me some prices? What would delivery charges be like?
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AAARGHHHH!
Just a couple months ago I posted that I was looking for a 1.9 downpipe upgrade when mine went bad. None were available, so I bought a factory one for $400!!!
Now these things are available... no fair!
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Hey Dave I might need to buy one of your downpipes... I have a big exhaust leak coming from the toilet bowl.. Using your pipe I get rid of the toilet bowl right. But is there a flex joint I need to isntall to take all the vibration?
One more thing. I know that clearances with this engine are pretty tight... is there any risk with using your camshaft? Does it improve MPG + power or decrease mpg + improve power? Just wondering...
thanks!
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Yes our DP's eliminate the stock toilet bowl. We are working on finding the perfect flex joint and I think we have found it, it is a stainless braded center peice 2.5''. Also with the flex joint are 2 extra T3 flanges and hardware to bolt them together so your dp is easily detachable from the rest of your exhaust system. Price will likely be $40-50 more, this includes the 2 extra t3 flanges and the nice stainless braided flex joint welded to the dp. This isn't final yet I'll try to get some pics up ASAP.
Dubcanuck I'll send you an email this afternoon.
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Dave, check your mail.
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Mail replied :D
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Back at you.
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Hey I forgot to mention we have 16v pressure plates and 4 puck sprung center discs as well as the new PP hardware. This setup is good for around 250whp and about the same amount of torque, the setup feels awesome. Malone is running this setup right now, you can ask him how he likes it, he also has one of our 6lb flywheels. I know we really need to update the website.
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Anyone have experience / comments about these gauges? They come in metric, which is a big selling feature for me.
http://www.42draftdesigns.com/product/sw/swb-114-403.htm
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OK, keeping the thread count low. Engine's out. I'm in the process of taking out the clutch, which has had it. I need to get a new one. The end goal of the car is ~120 HP, with mid-150wtq. I'd like to get an upgraded clutch (moderate), but don't want to lose much or any smoothness on take offs (PapadubCanuck1 is kinda old and likes his comfort more than the "oomf" aspect).
Ideas?