VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: ldeikis on January 11, 2010, 10:33:12 am
-
Short version: Do you need a gasket exclusively for the 11mm 1.6 head, or do the 11mm and 12mm heads use the same gasket lined up as best you can and just allow some slack around the bolt holes?
Long version:
My rabbit was seeping oil out from the block/head between #2 and #3. My girlfriend's stepfather runs a garage with a lift and tools (almost 300 miles away) and we live in upstate NY with no garage at all... so it seemed reasonable to drive the car there and do the job with heat and a lift during Christmas, using his timing tools to swap the timing belt, tensioner etc.
Things went well until I held the new head gasket up to the old one and realized that the "new" one was different--I think maybe for a 1.5. It's my fault, I somehow misread or mis-cross-referenced the part number. So it was the day before christmas in rural pennsylvania and we have to leave at 5am on the 26th to drive back for work. By sheer luck, there's a garage a few towns away that specializes in old VW work, and he had a Reinz 3 notch gasket in stock... but it's for the later car with 12mm holes. But my car has 11mm bolts. Thing is, the mechanic at that garage (that does a ton of vw work and was well recommended) said they aren't able to get the 11mm gasket except with the smaller oil return hole (I guess for the 1.5?) and so everyone uses the 12mm gasket and just lines it up as best as possible and it's fine.
I called PartsPlaceInc and they confirmed that they ship the same part for 11mm heads and 12mm heads.
So I got the Reinz gasket, which had 12mm bolt holes but otherwise lined up perfectly with the old gasket, lined it up as best as I could, and bolted it down (dry).
800 miles later and I'm leaking oil from the same damn place, AND I've got significant oil/coolant mixing. And it's 8 degrees outside and this is my only transportation. And I just got laid off the day before this hit the fan.
I didn't skim the head or anything when it was out, and I put in new stretch bolts. I still need to do the final, after 1000 mile torque, but I'm pessimistic about it solving this issue.
If I put in the wrong gasket and pulling it all apart in the snow and putting in a new one, or a new one and studs, is very likely to solve the problem, I can try. If I did it right and it's likely the head is warped or something, that's a major problem given the car's general shape and value.
Help!
Thanks.
Luke
-
If I recall correctly, that's what I used last time on my Rabbit pickup with 11mm bolts in 1997 and it hasn't missed a beat... Just lucky, I guess...
Rick
-
The car had 11mm allen bolts in it. I read--I believe on here--that they tend to loosen, which is why they switched to the stretch bolts on the 12mm heads. Either way, I had already ordered a set of 11mm bolts (from PartsPlaceInc, which is where I was getting the timing belt/pulley and some other stuff from) that came with 11mm triple square bolts instead of Allens. I put them in as per the instructions that came with the Reinz gasket, which was 35NM, then 60NM, then 2 90 degree additional turns, a heat cycle (in this case, I drove around for about a half hour, going to the beer store to buy a thankyou for the guy who let me use the garage) then an additional 90 degrees. It says to do one more 90 degree turn after 1000km with the engine cold, which is due right now. That's more or less what Bentley specifies for the multipoint (triple square) bolts.
Was it a mistake to use the triple square 11mm bolts? I believe(d) them to be stretch bolts and my understanding is that the stretch bolts hold pressure more evenly than the non-stretch ones. I still have the 11mm allen heads, which look fine, I just thought the triplesquare/stretch was the better product so I swapped them.
I cleaned the head and block surfaces with a plastic scraper and brake cleaner on paper towels and didn't see any issues. Not impossible I missed something, I guess, but I did look. Before I went in and changed it, the coolant was NOT mixing with oil, just the oil was escaping to the outside world, so it doesn't seem likely the block is cracked that way.
I made sure the holes in the block were extremely clean and free of debris.
I don't know if I've EVER put on stretch bolts before, so I don't know how they're "supposed" to feel. They didn't feel TIGHT in a traditional sense--with a 24" or so 1/2" ratchet it was not hard for me to turn those 90 degree turns... just kind of a consistent, firm pull on the ratchet. It didn't make any of the popping/cracking noises I've read about.
Do you guys think the 11mm triple squares are the wrong choice? I'm wary of trying to swap the allens back in for fear of oil/coolant getting down in the holes in the block and cracking the thing as I try to tighten it. Is there any chance of me curing this without having to pull the head again? Is there actually a source for a 3 notch 11mm 1.6 head gasket?
I'm really dreading doing this again in the cold, but if I can find a real 11mm gasket I'd probably be willing to order ARP studs and just go for it again. I love the car and want to fix it, but it's cosmetically pretty rough and not worth a whole lot, so I don't want to vomit huge amounts of money into him.
I thought I had researched this so well prior to doing it, and now I feel like a total ignoramus.
Luke
-
the 11mm triple square bolts they sold you are probably gasser head bolts, which are stretch bolts.
the common understanding is that they do not stand up to the extra load of the diesel very well.
I would either re-use the allen bolts, or buy a set of ARP studs(actually I would use the studs personally but...)
-Owen
-
>
I would either re-use the allen bolts, or buy a set of ARP studs(actually I would use the studs personally but...)
>
Anyone have input on if there's hope of fixing this issue without a new head gasket? It might be a dumb question, but I don't know if the things allow seepage by or actually rupture... ie, can I swap studs in and call it good, or am I fooling myself in thinking I might be able to do this without pulling the head again?
-
you might be able to replace each bolt one at a time with the studs, torque it down and have it be fine.
but since there is oil between the gasket and block/head now, I think the chances of it are slim.
the headgasket really likes a good clean surface to seal against.
-
can I swap studs in and call it good, or am I fooling myself in thinking I might be able to do this without pulling the head again?
Because the studs are reusable you can actually try this and see, without risk. If you win replacing the bolts one at a time great... if not... tear it down and change out the gasket.
All things being equal the "correct" approach is to start over...the gaskets are specifically designed to squish once and once only...but in the real world of freezing temperatures etc sometimes you gotta experiment?!
-
>
I would either re-use the allen bolts, or buy a set of ARP studs(actually I would use the studs personally but...)
>
Anyone have input on if there's hope of fixing this issue without a new head gasket? It might be a dumb question, but I don't know if the things allow seepage by or actually rupture... ie, can I swap studs in and call it good, or am I fooling myself in thinking I might be able to do this without pulling the head again?
In a pinch I would get the ARP fasteners, and Crank em down to max torque in the center first (Two at a time) and give her a try. In the future as Im sure you have now found out always streight edge a head every time it is off.
-
Because the studs are reusable you can actually try this and see, without risk. If you win replacing the bolts one at a time great... if not... tear it down and change out the gasket.
This sounds like my best plan. If I do it one at a time, am I running a risk of damaging the head, or just of not fixing my leak? I don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish and end up warping the head to hell in an effort to avoid tearing it down.
I guess I'll order the ARP204-4701 from Summit?
Also, RE finding a true 11mm gasket if I do have to tear it back down... any ideas, or is that a non-starter?
Luke
-
This, http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21948.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21948.0) is good read, also has the PN's you need.
-
AutohauzAz has three notch gaskets for 11mm headbolt 1.6 liter engines. Jack at VW diesel sends out the same head gaskets for either 11 or 12mm so there must be some interchangeability. Studs are nice since they kinda hold the head gasket in place when you put the cylinder head on the block.
-
I have used 12mm gasket(s) on an 11mm engine, but it was a waste of time and money because the 11mm block was shot. learned the hard way. I know what it's like to work outside, and not have enough money for a HG much less an engine. If there is any way, this looks like it could be nice on craigslist-
http://poconos.craigslist.org/pts/1546622881.html (http://poconos.craigslist.org/pts/1546622881.html)
the 12mm engines are really nice, and I wouldn't run any of them without head studs at this point, they make such a difference. Good luck.
-
This looks closer to you-
http://westernmass.craigslist.org/pts/1531140892.html (http://westernmass.craigslist.org/pts/1531140892.html)
looks like a 12mm mechanical shortblock, cheap. Questionable ad. But you could run a drill thru your 11mm headbolt holes, add some studs and have a 12mm engine. Another gamble...
-
So the determining part between the 11mm and 12mm blocks is the diameter of the hole? I thought there was an issue with depth as well? Drilling and tapping to 12mm and then maybe even finding a 1.6 mech head for better breathing? ( do the 1.6 heads differ over the 1.5 heads? at all )
-
So the determining part between the 11mm and 12mm blocks is the diameter of the hole? I thought there was an issue with depth as well? Drilling and tapping to 12mm and then maybe even finding a 1.6 mech head for better breathing? ( do the 1.6 heads differ over the 1.5 heads? at all )
I think he meant drill the holes in the head out to 12mm, I've heard of it being done. I doubt you could convert a 11mm block to 12mm, unless the threads were the same.........
-
Well if you were to drill the head out to 12mm.. how could you use the 12mm bolts on a 11mm block? something ain't right there to me, unless I am missing it h-core lol.
-
Well if you were to drill the head out to 12mm.. how could you use the 12mm bolts on a 11mm block? something ain't right there to me, unless I am missing it h-core lol.
This looks closer to you-
http://westernmass.craigslist.org/pts/1531140892.html (http://westernmass.craigslist.org/pts/1531140892.html)
looks like a 12mm mechanical shortblock, cheap. Questionable ad. But you could run a drill thru your 11mm headbolt holes, add some studs and have a 12mm engine. Another gamble...
Add a 12mm block and poof!!! ;D
-
hah, I did miss it h-core. lol sorry bout that guys.
but is the diameter of the hole and depth of the bolt what deciphers the two?
-
This looks closer to you-
http://westernmass.craigslist.org/pts/1531140892.html (http://westernmass.craigslist.org/pts/1531140892.html)
looks like a 12mm mechanical shortblock, cheap. Questionable ad. But you could run a drill thru your 11mm headbolt holes, add some studs and have a 12mm engine. Another gamble...
there isnt as much iron around the bolt holes as a 12mm engine. its still not going to be as good as the real mccoy.
-
Yeah, I didn't write that one very well. I meant get a 12mm block and drill out the head you have. -EDIT- craigslist posting gone
IMO, It got really discouraging to work on a cracked 11mm block.
-
Vanagoner
I understood what you meant--buy a 12mm block and drill out my 11mm head. I think it sounds a bit too franken to me, though--drilling out engine parts without a press isn't my style. And I don't have a press. Or even a garage. Or even a tree and a come-along to swap engines (I assume rabbit engines go in/out through the top, not out the bottom like a beetle?).
I'm leaning towards pulling the thing apart again in the cold, since as LibbyPapa pointed out--if I buy the studs and then the thing is cracked, I just pissed away $130. Since I just lost my stupid job I'm not hard up to be driving anywhere, if the car sits outside tarped a few days while the parts come, I'll be fine. Better than spending the money on useless studs, anyway. Are there any good tips on how to get those huge c-clips off the exhaust header/manifold without a lift and the proper tool? I'm prepared to buy or borrow the tool to reassemble, but I'd love to dive into this asap as we're having a hot snap for the next two days (30F as opposed to 15-20 during the days). It looks like I can access the left one through the engine compartment, and maybe just pry it off with a thin drift or something? What about the other side?
Ugh.
Thanks for all the help so far.
Luke
-
the motors on a mk1 go in and out easiest from the bottom(the frame horns are above it, so it will drop out the bottom no problem)
as for the c-clips, take a old style muffler clamp apart. thread the nuts onto the u-bolt, and then put the stamped plate on backwards.
that way it can be used to expand the c-clamp for easy removal and installation.
should have a pic to show you, but I dont.
-Owen
-
(http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/CheapTricks/Images/VwExhaustClapTool_t.jpg)
Got it. Thanks. I'm going to borrow my girlfriend's car early tomorrow before she goes to work and run to the store for the clamp and some scrap cardboard to lay on, plus try to find a .600" OD socket to lock the pump up. It's supposed to be a balmy 32 tomorrow so with some luck I'll have it apart by afternoon and be able to see if it's cracked or just a lame gasket and/or gasser bolts.
Think me luck.
Luke
-
So how should I flush the block/heater core/hoses out once it's back together? I have access to hot water in a hose, so I was thinking I might just turn up the hot water heater to scald and then flush it with plain hot water. Soap seems risky. It's not super nasty since I stopped as soon as I saw the contamination--there's a film of funk in the overflow that I washed out in the sink as best I could, but I don't know how to clean the rest out.
So I got it all apart. When I went to unthread the feed from the glowplug bus, the whole center threaded out of my #1 glow plug. I guess that one probably needs replaced ;D Probably also explains why the car was harder starting when cold since I was in there last--I'm thinking I must have damaged that guy when I was removing/installing the bus last time. I'm thinking to do all 4 while it's nice and easy.
Cleaned the block up nice and pretty and it is NOT cracked to my eyes, which are pretty good usually. Block also seems acceptably straight.
On the other hand, when I went to loosen those tripe squares, they were a LOT looser than I expect head bolts to be. I won't try to put a number on it, but it was pretty easy to break them loose. I'm confident they went in correctly (used a SnapOn clicker that gets calibrated somewhat regularly). Interesting side note: They're exactly the same length as the hex heads I pulled out of there. I thought gasser bolts were supposed to be shorter???
So I'm ordering an ARP kit and a 3 notch 11mm gasket from Autohaus. Hopefully the weather and the mailman cooperate and I can get the little guy back together soon.
Thanks again.
Luke