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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: oldskool rich on January 09, 2010, 05:31:27 pm
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finaly got a disco MTDI running, but doesnt run very well, think its set up wrong or sumit maybe i got the timing wrong, i set it to 0.84, can anyone confirm if this is right? max fuel screw is all the way in and it starts but runns like a bag of *** with loads of white smoke
anyone know what might be going wrong, revs go up and down, up and down without touching throttle, it drove for about a mile, was realy quite fast, my A6 couldnt keep up :o. i had to change the seal on the throttle shaft and whilst i was doin it i swapped the gov spring for the one off an aaz. im sure that pump has alot to giv
any help will be much appreciated and once done i will document the full journey
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Geez my memory sucks Rich but I believe Giles told me 0.95, for mine.
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Mine is timed to
1.65 edit:1.54, as somebody on here said that is what they are timed to on the landy engine. Though down on power, it runs and drives fine.
Cant get my head round whether or not it should be timed as per landy spec or vw spec, makes sense it should be as per vw. Giles says on his website 0.95 I believe.
Blackdogvan, is yours a disco pump too? I'm keen to hear the official line on correct timing for these units.
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I have seen 0.95 for the earlier tdi's and 1.05 for ALH onwards
Thats where I would start
My thoughts are that if the IP is well set up then getting a good idle should be a matter of
setting up the static timing right....I may be wrong though!
Also I think that by screwing in your max fuel screw to the limit, you are narrowing the opperation or spectrum of the accelerator
on the primary lever, therby affecting high and low rpm running
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I'm pretty sure the Land Rover timing is more correct than the VW setting. The timing is related to the pump cam, and that is specific to the pump.
My pump arrives any day now. :)
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I think timing would be somewhere in between VW and LR timing. Yes the pump cam plays a big role but so does the combustion chamber. It'll be a matter of trial and error.
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in the all pumps make for my friends... ,the good timing is 1.00mm
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i know for a fact that there is a magic number, my corrado is spot on, it fires up at the turn of the key and runs like a dream (but has no turbo) but even a fraction out and ut runns like crap, someone on here gave the right answer last time when i was first building one of these for my corrado, i dont think it was 95 but i could be wrong. i might go and check the corrado and see what that was set to. the only way it would start was to screw the max fuel screw all in
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Just spent all day with just what you describe. If you find that magic spot let me know what it is. Have you got the max fuel screwed in on the corrado as well?
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oldskool, are you thinking of this thread?
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=17305.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=17305.0)
sprockets, second post down..
its where i got the timing for mine from. And it seems to run smoothly enough
Anybody know how big a 'window' there is for ok running, ie 0.05 +/-, or 0.1 +/-, or 0.15+/- etc...
between rich's 0.84 and my 1.54, thats a fair range. I'm tempted to reduce mine a little and see if it changes for the better.
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i set all my pumps by ear and looking at the exhast , sounds like your pump needs a little adv ;)
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yes, thats easy enough wen you can twist the pump by hand but with a disco pump you can only adjust it with the pully
yes thats right. 1.54, thats the magic point i remember now, thats what the raddo is running, hopfully that will solve all problems, i will confirm this tomoz.
take no notice of my 0.84, duno why i had that in my head, i knew it was sumthin 4 ;D
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If you try a couple more settings on the way to 1.54, let us know how you get on.. Mine at 1.54, as said, is down on power, but runs sweet enough, and starts on the button. Think I just need some governer mod action....
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i thort the gov might cause problems so i swapped to an AAZ spring, sorry diddnt get chance to do it today
after seeing how fast it was wen the timing was wrong and if your saying urs has no power i would say that your probly on to sumthin
my corrado ran out of revs, if it actualy had a turbo it would of hit the limiter just as it came on boost so gov might be the cause of this too, discos only rev to like 3.5-4 wen i rekon it should be hitting about 5. my AAZ ran 6 with no govener but i dont think TDI will handle that, on my most recent 1Z engine i have removed the fly weights, i wana see how that effects things
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i timed it perfectly but getting nothin but white smoke and running like a bag of nails, hardly any throttle response, im gona just do it manualy, its way too far retarded, im not conviced this pump even has the right cam plate, who ever rebuilt it forgot to put in the rubber o ring that seals the throttle shaft too ::) makes me wonder what else they left out
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Just a thought rich. Same setup, same symptoms. Have you sorted it yet? Watched the fuel spurts and the cam whilst turning a front wheel in top-- 180 out on the pump. It ran as a td and tdi, surprisingly. I`d gone to great lengths to use a single piece pulley, elongate the bracket and drill the pulley so it pinned in the right spot and could be adjusted whilst running, but the disco no.1 was diagonally opposite. I thought it`d been allowed for, but obviously not, it was injecting when the cams were rocking. It ran quite well once started although smokey. Cheers rolo.
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Just for reference, my unit has been a little down on power since i got it running in the van. I found and fixed a boost leak 2 days ago, and it was a huge improvement.
I would say then, that with ZERO mods, my landy 200tdi pump is probably achieveing roughly standard power for my engine (90BHP AHU TDi), with timing set to 1.54.
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Good news mm. I`m preparing the, what is now, an aef mtdi in a mk2 caddy before attatching a un1 box an putting it in the t3 panel which is, at present, a tuned aef with aaz rods and pistons. The td is at present more powerful but this weekend i`m turning the boost up (vnt15) from vanes constantly open to about 8psi and the fuel and pin to grey to see how that is. Just made an 80 mm downpipe and straight thru. Timing at present is 1.36 set by ear first, will be moving it about so I`ll let you know how that goes. Fuel dies at 4k rpm so the governor needs attention too. Cheers rolo.
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look forward to the results with that, hope you get it running happily.
Be you the same rolo from the other forum i frequent by any chance?
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That`s me. Turned the vanes to throttle related, but controlled by a pressure can limited to 1bar, today. turned fuel up and smoke screw, set of ,well impressed, 2.5k revs boost gauge flies up to 1bar, instant clutch slip with foot to floor. This is going to be good but now need much better clutch. Unfortunately the flywheel/box is Skoda in a mk2 caddy and the 02A gearbox I was going to install disappeared from the back of the truck Thursday. I hear someone in Rochdale area will make up a much higher rated pressure plate. we`ll see. -----First impressions and thoughts are that the pump needs the gov main spring shimming and in the t3 a vr pressure plate. As you say the pump, as is, produces similar power to the etdi (previously I had a 1Z Golf) but has more potential. Having fun, rolo. Do you live in W Yorks ?
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Yup, w yorks. Thats the problem with tweaking these, we quickly run into the clutch issue. Keep me informed if you find the Rochdale chap, will be needing this myself sometime soon. I have an allleged 'uprated' unit, but am not sure how much it will take before slipping.
As you said, from what I have read here and elsewhere, governer mod should be 1st port of call, given how the pumps are set up for landy's rev range etc. Darent do anything to mine until I have the EGT installed, I dont even have a rev counter yet, i just go till my ears start to bleed, then back off a little..!
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still had no real luck with mine, on second pump now because first one turned out to be scrap
i think the prob is fuel starvation, nothin to do with pump, more the set up of the car as it used to be a 1.3 petrol.
i didnt realise the pump could be 180 out? i just used the tdc off the landrover and then do the rest with a depth gauge, is that right?
i found its realy hard to set up, it either doesnt start or it revs its tits off anyone know a better way to set the throttle arm and max fuel?
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im still having massive problems getting my disco running, the throttle started off by having a little response then it lost all response after was running for a few minits, engine just revs up and down as it pleases, wont idle, its either reving or dieing, max fuel controls weather it revs or dies but throttle lever is doing nothing now, ive never seen so much smoke in my life (grey), sounds like its running on all 4 but seems like the timing is wrong wen it is 100% perfectly timed to 1.54, any ideas? cus this is the 2nd pump now and they both seem to be doing similar things. im running an AAZ cam would that make a difference? thort they wer ment to be an upgrade? maybe they only work on the electric pumps? anyone know?
ive checked the fuel supply and now running an inline fuel pump good for 200bhp but made no diffence
im at my witts end, theres no reason i can see for this to not work, cud it be down to injectors? maybe the engine is just haunted
help
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You have a lot of unknowns in your build, so until you eliminate these, you will be doing this all by trial and error. To me, questionable things:
Cam: Fit for purpose? Timed properly?
Pump: Serviced, set up and in sound working order? Timed properly?
Engine: Have you ever seen it running well? ie with original ecu'd pump and cam? Compression tested? Injectors known to be happy?
When you say you got the TDC from the landy unit what do you mean? Timing is obviously ALMOST there, or you wouldnt be running at all. By the sound of it you dont have a good TDC mark to start from.
Also, if you've been messing with the pump to compensate, even when you hit perfect timing (which you may have already) the engine will not run well. I worried this is half of the problem.
First off for me would be
1) ensure that your TDC mark is sound (this was my first stumbling block as my engine is in a van now, and the bellhousing mark was different to the golf bellhousing the engine came from!) If it isnt right, your cam may be out too, and that will mess up running.
2) find out for sure that the aaz cam is happy in a tdi. even if it is, swapping a standard tdi cam back in will eliminate one less potential issue.
3) if you have messed with the different settings on the pump, return them to standard (if you marked everything up) or take it to a good pump shop and let them do it (see if they'll do the gov mod for you while its open!) Remember, theres only so much people like us can do with these pumps, guys dont invest years and thousands in training, experience, and equipment for fun. Its specialist stuff, that we can destroy in 5 minutes in our sheds!
Keep us up to date, I love the concept of mtdi-ing these engines, and want to see you get this sorted.
mm :)
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ive built quite a few pumps in the past, i havent changed anything i dont understand, and ive already rebuilt one of these pumps and is up and running in my corrado, ive never seen this pump running or the original pump
i will change the cam and check that the bell housing tdc is right, that never crossed my mind, but makes alot of sence an might do the injectors at the same time too
ill keep you posted, thanx very much for your help xx
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ok so it turns out that one valve was slightly bent, i think from over reving wen it had no gov
changed the whole engine for the spare with ARPs and now it runs, wen i say runs, i meen it runs like ***
it sounds like pre ignition, almost sounds like tappits, is that normal? also so much smoke it hurts ur eyes, and no power, also fuel dripping out the exhaust
since the pump was rebuit by carwoods in the end and fully calibrated to disco standards and bench tested, also running electric pick up pump, timed to 1.25 and running AAZ cam im saying injectors are no good, what you rekon?
please if anyone has any other ideas please speak now need it done this wk ???
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Try timing the pump 180 out.
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Can't see how it would run if it was 180 degrees out but at the top of the page Rolo says his ran like that, so it could well be the problem.
Are you happy about your TDC? Try your timing at 1.54.
The masses of smoke does sound like timing to me, so either of the above may be it
Also, are your injector lines proper? ie right length and all the same etc?
If you have a spare engine, does that mean you have spare injectors to swap in to see if they are the problem?
What about fuel? Are you using diesel thats been in a gerry can for 3 years?
TBH, your cam makes me nervous still, both AAZ nature of it and possible timing probs..
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I've heard of 2 people running their car with the timing 180 out so it is definitely possible.
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One of my 1.6L ran better with the pump 180 out than it did with it in time...both were poor though.
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Monkey Magic, the AAZ cam is well documented as an option in 1Z & AHU engines. My dynolicious app will tell me the difference!! (one day...)
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I've heard of 2 people running their car with the timing 180 out so it is definitely possible.
Fair enough, didnt doubt it after seeing rolo say it, but cant get my head round it!
Ref the aaz cam, it is still a non standard thing, does it time up the same as a tdi cam, or does it need 'offsetting' one way or the other? Can these be run smoke free, or is it a pure power option?
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my corrado runs smoke free, weve tried it with both cams and seems to make no difference
its got to be timing, its realy hard to get it right because no one knows where tdc on the pump realy is.
its time to reverse engineer my carrado to find out where tdc is and get this one rapped up for good
its been 3 months now on a job that should of took a day >:(
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because no one knows where tdc on the pump realy is.
When you say tdc on the pump, what do you mean? Thats thrown me..
If you have the corrado running a similar set up, have you tried sticking the serviced pump on that, and have you tried the same with the injectors, to prove to yourself they are all happy?
I reckon you will end up being right about it being timing, have you tried adjusting it by hand when running (dont fancy this myself, but know others do it) and trying to find a sweet spot?
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i am happy to report, great sucsess ;D
it finaly works, not only does it work but having trouble with 3rd gear wheel spin, and its astonishingly fast, dont know exactly what power but well over 200 im guessing around the 220/230 mark it managed to stay neck and neck with an M5 all the way to 120mph which is pretty special think this is the winning formula
the timing was 90 wrong, the pump tdc is different to a land rover, the woodfuff key should point towards the top of the cam pully, then set it to 1.25 we are running big nozzles, AAZ cam, new K24 turbo with bleed valve, not sure of how much boost either as we hav no gauge, infact i think the valve is closed so there will be more power once we hav set it up right and using charge cooler instead of stock GTD intercooler
im so happy ;D i love it wen *** works, i was about to giv up too
ill try and get sum pics and vids
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Glad to hear you got it sorted. I think a video proving the success is in order though.
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Nice work Rich.
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i am happy to report, great sucsess ;D
it finaly works, not only does it work but having trouble with 3rd gear wheel spin, and its astonishingly fast, dont know exactly what power but well over 200 im guessing around the 220/230 mark it managed to stay neck and neck with an M5 all the way to 120mph which is pretty special think this is the winning formula
the timing was 90 wrong, the pump tdc is different to a land rover, the woodfuff key should point towards the top of the cam pully, then set it to 1.25 we are running big nozzles, AAZ cam, new K24 turbo with bleed valve, not sure of how much boost either as we hav no gauge, infact i think the valve is closed so there will be more power once we hav set it up right and using charge cooler instead of stock GTD intercooler
im so happy ;D i love it wen *** works, i was about to giv up too
ill try and get sum pics and vids
Really nice, I'd like some video's of this basterd. :)
That woodruff key setting, is that valid for all LR-pumps or is it just your custom pump?
I started to think about it when burn_your_money said 180 degrees, I realized I actually have no idea where "TDC" is on my pump...
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all 3 of my land rover pumps work like this, they are unmodified apart from the govener
we got carwoods (diesel specialists) to rebuild the pump back to standard and lock it at TDC which they did, we tried it and it still didnt work, it turns out that it was 90 degrees around from where it runns on a landrover. we only found this strait away on the rado because we machined a VW pully to fit the pump and we actualy used the woodruff key and drilled out the pump so we could twist it to get the timing right, we used the timing hole on the VW pully to work out where pump TDC was, on the golf we had adjustable pullys made up and then we had been running what we thort was landrover TDC assuming it would be the same
landrovers have bigger pullys and it seems the pump sits differently so the pipes must run differently too
but officialy on a VW point ur key towards the top of the cam pully and work it out, ull be amazed ;)
im taking it for a test drive tonight, will let you know how it goes, hopfully ill get sum vids next wk, the owner works for MR2 tuning company drives 700hp car on a regular basis, if he says its fast then i believe him
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Thanks for that.
So, to make it all happen, which outlet on the disco pump should go to the first cylinder on the VW engine?
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Thanks for that.
So, to make it all happen, which outlet on the disco pump should go to the first cylinder on the VW engine?
what you do is set your engine to TDC ,timming belt of the fuel pump turn the pump by hand with spaner clock wise and with your other hand pumping ;) your primming builb with the ING on (power going to your stop solanod)and have no1 fuel pipe slackend at the injector , stop when you see fuel coming out no1 at the injector pipe, put the belt back on and time with dile gauge , or by ear as what i do :D
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what you do is set your engine to TDC ,timming belt of the fuel pump turn the pump by hand with spaner clock wise and with your other hand pumping ;) your primming builb with the ING on (power going to your stop solanod)and have no1 fuel pipe slackend at the injector , stop when you see fuel coming out no1 at the injector pipe, put the belt back on and time with dile gauge , or by ear as what i do :D
I do know that. :)
What I meant is that there's nothing that says that the fuel lines are in the same order.
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think vw is 1342 fireing order land rover is the same as vw cos i have fitted a LR 11mm head on a 1.9 aaz pump and used the vw 1.9 tdi hp fuel lines and there was no prob with fireing order and run sweet
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Same, as long as you mount it the same as the VE that came with your car. I swapped out the LR delivery valves with a set from a AAZ pump. The LR's are longer & caused the shown injector line issue. I would have just bent them but I recall reading somewhere that the plating on the inside that could flake off & plug injectors.
(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/557863.jpg)
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The firing order out of the pump is always the same, ABCD(EF). As long as you are using the lines from the engine you won't have a problem.
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The firing order out of the pump is always the same, ABCD(EF). As long as you are using the lines from the engine you won't have a problem.
Ok, it seems no one understands what I'm talking about. There are four holes where the pump is squirting out diesel. And yes, they are always squirting in series (ABCD). But which of the four holes are going to be connected to the first cylinder?
Got it now?
Of course any of the out's can be connected to the first cylinder as the advance always will be the same, but then the pump must be rotated 90 degrees for each step the firing is rotated to keep the correct timing. What I was asking for was on a standard setup, which of the holes on the pump is connected to cyl 1. In Rich's case, he had to rotate the timing 90 degrees. Either there's a difference in the setup between the VW and the LR engine, or there's a specific change in Rich case that forced this rotation.
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I'm pretty sure Rich rotated the flywheel 90 degrees, not the pump. :P
Between the bracket & the injection lines you'd have to try VERY hard to install the pump wrong.
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The firing order out of the pump is always the same, ABCD(EF). As long as you are using the lines from the engine you won't have a problem.
Ok, it seems no one understands what I'm talking about. There are four holes where the pump is squirting out diesel. And yes, they are always squirting in series (ABCD). But which of the four holes are going to be connected to the first cylinder?
Got it now?
Of course any of the out's can be connected to the first cylinder as the advance always will be the same, but then the pump must be rotated 90 degrees for each step the firing is rotated to keep the correct timing. What I was asking for was on a standard setup, which of the holes on the pump is connected to cyl 1. In Rich's case, he had to rotate the timing 90 degrees. Either there's a difference in the setup between the VW and the LR engine, or there's a specific change in Rich case that forced this rotation.
it dose not mater which one it comes out you just turn your pump clock wise untill you get fuel out no1 fuel pipe at the injector , and your prob solved , the only driffrance is where bosch put the key way in the shaft where your pulley goes on . get it now?
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ok, thort id cracked it but having sum more issues, any ideas and thorts wud be welcome
i havent got and vids yet because the guys turbo died the next day, wich is unusual as its quite new, but could of been on its way anyway. he blanked his turbo off and has been running it NA until he can get another one sorted. car runs fine wen its warm but wen its starting from cold it smokes its tits off, like realy bad and seems like its running on 2 or 3, seems like its dumping fuel. he says the sump is filling with diesel too. these are brand new nozzles and same problem with his origonal injectors too. anyway he has been living with the problem untill now, he went to start it up and suddenly somthin hit and now he has no compression. weve not took it apart yet but sound like hydraulicly locked
any ideas?
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The firing order out of the pump is always the same, ABCD(EF). As long as you are using the lines from the engine you won't have a problem.
Ok, it seems no one understands what I'm talking about. There are four holes where the pump is squirting out diesel. And yes, they are always squirting in series (ABCD). But which of the four holes are going to be connected to the first cylinder?
Got it now?
Of course any of the out's can be connected to the first cylinder as the advance always will be the same, but then the pump must be rotated 90 degrees for each step the firing is rotated to keep the correct timing. What I was asking for was on a standard setup, which of the holes on the pump is connected to cyl 1. In Rich's case, he had to rotate the timing 90 degrees. Either there's a difference in the setup between the VW and the LR engine, or there's a specific change in Rich case that forced this rotation.
it dose not mater which one it comes out you just turn your pump clock wise untill you get fuel out no1 fuel pipe at the injector , and your prob solved , the only driffrance is where bosch put the key way in the shaft where your pulley goes on . get it now?
Yep, I got that before as well. I just wanted to know how the setup on the working engines are with the LR-pump. I think I give up and go with your option anyway, twist-squirt-set. :)
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help!
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take it apart and take pics
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Going back to the no.1 question, Tdi pump 1 was upper left, Landrover lower right (from the back). Was sick of moving the pump so spun the camshaft 180 where it remains till the aaz cam comes out and the tdi goes back. Valves seem too near pistons-no carbon building up under inlets and just put a shimmed Perkins Prima govenor spring in.