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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: regcheeseman on January 08, 2010, 04:42:59 am
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As part of my VNT project I'm looking for an engine speed signal, my AAZ pump had a sensor in the centre timing port on the pump head, I'm guesssing this was a basic pressure switch and would give me a 2 pulse per rev signal? The same as required by a petrol revcounter....
Anyone tried or tested this sensor?
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Yup, according to the Bosch yellow jacket it will deliver one fairly-clean 5V pulse per injection.... two per rev... exactly the same as a gasser ignition system.
Ergo, should be able to drive a gasser tach... if not directly then within a transistor/resistor/capacitor of signal conditioning.
Downside, for general usage, is that the sensor is pretty rare and probably pretty expensive. ;)
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That styer 6 in the bmw's and lincolns had em too, they are deff expensive new, but available.
I had the same thought, if I ever happen to see one in a junkyard I'll snag it.
Still seems like someone electrically inclined ought to be able to use a knock sensor or
some sort of piezoelectric setup to get such info, **cheaply**
I'd really like to be able to use a timing light on one of these things.
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Meh.... working on that exact thingie... cheapo junkyard knock sensor timing light adapter... too many projects. Could easily drive a tach as well, although it would need a PLL to double the freq.
My darn day job keeps getting in the way of my night job. ;-)
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You'd be even more of a diesel-Hero if you could pull it off, especially with that generic Bosch knock sensor there are billions of in the world.
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I had one of these later pumps with the electronic advance and sensor in the head.
I was under the same impression as you and came up with a system to control the advance using that sensor. Unfortunately when I hooked it all up it didn't work. I then checked teh output of the sensor and it was dead :(
You can get these sensors from bosch (quite hard to find someone that knows what you are talking about though) but they are about £170 from memory, therefore I scrapped the project.
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with that generic Bosch knock sensor there are billions of in the world.
Yup. Got'er working actually but a bit too flaky on the triggering for general usage...so needs a bit more tweaking for reliability before it's ready for prime-time.
One of my TDIs just blew up the turbo seals so I'm distracted yet again. ::)
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i could be wrong but dont they use them on 1z tdi s?
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Mine doesn't have one. TDIs use the 3rd injector instead.
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Downside, for general usage, is that the sensor is pretty rare and probably pretty expensive.
Must have binned 3 or 4 in the last 12 months... definitely have 2 kicking round the garage.
Yup, according to the Bosch yellow jacket it will deliver one fairly-clean 5V pulse per injection.... two per rev... exactly the same as a gasser ignition system.
Really? The ones I have seem to be basic pressure switches, all are fed with a 12v signal - no 5v anywhere on a uk AAZ system unless you have one of the really late ones
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I've just dug out my yellow jacket and as you can see, they state 5V signal:
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x91/markb_1303/IMG_0127.jpg)
I have no reason to doubt the use of 5V for a sensor like this as it will be driven directly from the control unit. However, I havn't been able to look over a car running these pumps (only present on very late mk3s) to actually hook up a DMM or scope (I would dearly love to though, so if you know of one ;) ) as the control unit was already missing from the car when I got the engine/pump etc.
I had a look for the part number for the sensor too, but I can't find the piece of paper I wrote it on at the moment.
Mark.
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Yup, that's the exact page from the Yellow Jacket.
Fed with 12V but sends out a clean TTL-level 5V pulse for the ECU to process.
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so would one of these put out a signal that could be picked up by say, a four cylinder gasser tachometer without modification?
I am looking for ways to drive the tach I have(from an 80's bayliner)
I was going to use a hall sender and magnets on the crank pulley, but this would be much less prone to breaking off from vibration/kicked up stones
I am sure someone has a few lying around in their pile of parts(wanna sell me one for cheap? ;) )
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Mark B - Vincent,
Still believe we are talking about two different sensors here...I'm talking about the non-ecu AAZ
What's the 'yellow jacket' is it available online?
how many wires on your sensor and does it have a part number - I'll check mine this evening...
so would one of these put out a signal that could be picked up by say, a four cylinder gasser tachometer without modification?
well - in theory yes but it would need signal conditioning,
I don't really care what the output is as long as it's a pulse, in fact 5v would be preferable as it'll be plugged into a PIC with will decode the signal and drive another pic containing a 3D VNT control map and also the standard gasser tacho.
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I'm talking about the non-ecu AAZ
What's the 'yellow jacket' is it available online?
Hmmm... could be. The sensor I'm thinking of is the "start of injection" sensor that screws into the IP where you'd normally insert the timing gauge... measures and then signals pressure as the plunger starts its injection cycle.
Bosch "Yellow Jackets" are a series of small books Bosch puts out on various automotive subjects... including various diesel components. Available at most major book outlets that would also carry the Bentley service manuals.
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The sensor I'm thinking of is the "start of injection" sensor that screws into the IP where you'd normally insert the timing gauge... measures and then signals pressure as the plunger starts its injection cycle.
That's the fellow! But as most of the UK ones are fitted to non ECU AAZ engines, I'm unsure that it is the same as your 5V signalling version?
Does the yellow jacket state an operating pressure for the sensor?
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is this the one you speak of reg?
(http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq352/ryan-pak/SNV81776.jpg)
at the top of this pic, it's got a yellow wire, cant remember the other one!
Ry
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Ryan what is the sensor on the right? Crank pickup?
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Looks like a boost ref. sens. from a MK4.
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I've just picked up a late 1Y engine, similar pump apart from the LDA.
I'm putting this in a petrol MK2, so if you can give some guidance I can tell you if it works ok.
If anyone can tell me if the engine will run with just with 12v to the stop solenoid (once the black box is removed) that would be great?
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I've just picked up a late 1Y engine, similar pump apart from the LDA.
I'm putting this in a petrol MK2, so if you can give some guidance I can tell you if it works ok.
If anyone can tell me if the engine will run with just with 12v to the stop solenoid (once the black box is removed) that would be great?
If you could snap a couple of pictures we could probably help more, since there's so many different flavours of pumps out there, but if it's got the sensor in the picture above bolted into the high pressure end it probably also has an electronic timing control bolted to the side... and so won't run very well without the ECU it is designed to operate with.
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It has the immobiliser box and 'injection sensor' shown in first photo, actuator behind the pump and another device underneath the fuel return banjo shown in the second photo, and the last photo is the same as one already shown, this is at the bottom of the pump.
<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b78/aidanb19/?action=view¤t=AAAA0233.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b78/aidanb19/AAAA0233.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b78/aidanb19/?action=view¤t=AAAA0234.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b78/aidanb19/AAAA0234.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b78/aidanb19/?action=view¤t=AAAA0235.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b78/aidanb19/AAAA0235.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
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Hopefully others with more direct experience will weigh in, but imho that third picture (showing the electronic advance control) is the "smoking gun"... meaning the pump is the "just about a TDI pump but not quite" version that needs an ECU of sorts to run properly. I believe it will likely start for you with just a wire to the stop solenoid but won't likely have any power, since the fuel timing won't be being actively controlled.
Just my understanding based on your pictures... as I say someone else may say "I've got that exact pump and..." ;-)
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What a mess my last post was!
Not good I suppose. Do you know what the other powered parts are for? I'm just not used to semi-electronic pumps!
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Yeah that was a 3 bar MAP sensor from a PD150 Mk4, i'm sending all those parts to a friend to control his VNT on his crappy rover, lol
The 1y has the sensor you guy's need, i'm sure i could get more steady away i'm sure but i do want a couple myself!
Aiden, do what we are doing and whack a turbo on that 1y, N/A=Gay! then you can take the crappy pump off and fit a 1.6td one!
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The 1y has the sensor you guy's need, i'm sure i could get more steady away i'm sure but i do want a couple myself!
if you do find some that you would be willing to share let me know!
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Aiden, do what we are doing and whack a turbo on that 1y, N/A=Gay! then you can take the crappy pump off and fit a 1.6td one!
Its going with an auto box, and the starter is exactly where the turbo would be unfortunately. Its not for me anyway, and I still havethe 1Z sitting there waiting
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I'm using an AAZ with the electronic advance in my mk2 conversion.
As I said earlier in this thread, I tried to make a circuit to control the advance but my start of injection sensor (the one pictured above) was stuffed and so in the end I just decided to "suck it and see" and it runs perfectly, plenty of power even on the standard k03 with just some extra fuel and boost.
From my understanding of the electronic "advance", the solenoid can only reduce the amount of pressure in the advance mechanism and therefore retard timing when it's "on", it cannot add extra advance.
Of course this is assuming that the pump's pressure reg and timing springs are the same as in the non-controlled versions.
In the next couple of months I will see if I can do some more investigating on this pump as I'm just about to rebuild my Caddy's AAZ with an 11mm head, VNT turbo etc. to go drag racing with in the VWDRC. While I'm rebuilding this pump I'll try and look at the electronic advance version to see if I can spot any differences.
But as I said earlier, it runs very well with the advance control disconnected and has done for ~6000miles now, and I don't nurse it ;)
Just as an extra note, while I was getting some parts from the scrap (junk) yard at the weekend, I picked up another one of those sensors from a 1y, maybe this one will work!
Mark.
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Mark,
Nothing has 12v then other than the stop solenoid? How did you find starting in the recent cold weather?
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Nope, in my setup only the fuel cut-off solenoid has 12V on it.
Well I did have to leave my glow-plug switch on for slightly longer than usual, but still no problem.
(By the way - I agree with the others... Turbo it :) - who wants an auto anyway!)
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I'm using an AAZ with the electronic advance in my mk2 conversion.
And just to be clear... you're talking about an AAZ pump with the electronic timing control down at the bottom of the pump, as per aidans' third picture, as opposed to the more usual "retard the timing slightly" control bolted to the side of many AAZ pumps... one that looks more like a stop solenoid?
Only asking cause there's tons of variations on these pumps.... ;-)
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I'm using an AAZ with the electronic advance in my mk2 conversion.
And just to be clear... you're talking about an AAZ pump with the electronic timing control down at the bottom of the pump, as per aidans' third picture
yep, that's the fella.
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Nope, in my setup only the fuel cut-off solenoid has 12V on it.
Well I did have to leave my glow-plug switch on for slightly longer than usual, but still no problem.
(By the way - I agree with the others... Turbo it :) - who wants an auto anyway!)
There is always the option to turbo it (and incidentally, on the block it is stamped 1.9D / TD, so must be the same bottom end at least), but I want to get it running first and have the major obstacle of what starter to use, as the petrol one is too weak.
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is this the one you speak of reg?
Indeed that's the one - yellow and green wires. Do you know it's output and switch pressure?
I've run AAZ's with all this carp disconnected except for the stop solenoid and if anything, the power at low revs was improved.
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Dragging this back up,
I've been informed the petrol rev counter is driven by -ve pulse.
Now assuming its 2 pulses per revolution, and matches the 2 pulses given out by this injection sensor, then how could we work it? Other than a relay switched by the 5v output of this sensor, switching the -ve to the rev counter? I don't think a relay would actually be suitable, surely won't be fast enough or long lasting
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Gasser tach signal looks like this:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/800RPM_distance_web.jpg)
Given that the output of the Dakota Digital converter is a 12V square wave (iirc) there's a very reasonable chance that the gasser tach could be driven by a 5V square wave just as easily. If not, a generic switching transistor (2N2222, 2N3904 etc etc etc) could do the conversion to 12V. A diode and capacitor could be added to give a falling pulse train if that's whats required as well, but my guess is that the square wave output will work directly.
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Wow thats way over my head!!
If you or anyone can tell me how to do it I will try it. Will try it at 5v and 12v if necessary, I just have no diagrams for the petrol model so don't even know which connection on the coil is for the rev counter
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Good stuff guys, I love homebrewed engineering like this. Diesel Timing Strobe here I come! 8)
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this is all great in theory, but some of us need to get our hands on some of these injection sensors first.
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I just have no diagrams for the petrol model so don't even know which connection on the coil is for the rev counter
Yeah, a bit of geek talk...sorry... can't help it sometimes.
This:
http://www.a2resource.com/electrical/CE2cluster.html (http://www.a2resource.com/electrical/CE2cluster.html)
shows which wire on the cluster the tach signal comes in on... experiment 1 would be to connect the output of the pressure sensor directly to the cluster and see what happens.
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Not geek talk, I should know more about electronics before messing with things like this!
I will try this tomorrow or Saturday depending on if I have a day like today again.
Got a wiring diagram now -http://projectt4.t35.com/T25/1Yengine.pdf (http://projectt4.t35.com/T25/1Yengine.pdf)
It is Injection Period Sensor G175, on 2nd page.
Green/white from the sensor to the green off the coil (to the rev counter). Whats the chances the sensor doesn't work now!
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It may be of some help but when I test/cal my tacho conversion on the bench they seemingly have to have 12v signal.
I've only noted by accident as my new fuction generators lacks the 'nuts' of it's predecessor.
They are not picky about waveform/ duty cycle or whatever but lack the amplitude and you just don't get the full scal deflection - I need to hook up to a alt to confirm that it is the func gen and not my circuits but I've got two on test that exhibit the same behaviour.
Good stuff guys, I love homebrewed engineering like this. Diesel Timing Strobe here I come!
Doubt it very much, the signal will not be accurate enough and wander around. It will also be hard to cal.
Should be fine for rotational speed and 5V is perfect.
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The battery I need to test the car with is dead and can't get booster til tomorrow. The tach wire on the coil (green) is in a plug with a red/brown wire.
I will hopefully be able to get the car turning over at least tomorrow, but still wondering about the other information that I had, that its a pulsed negative? That would imply to me in my extremely limited experience that the tach has an igntion 12v supply direct to it.
Just concerned about damaging either the cluster or the injection sensor?
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The sensor is the one in the top of this pic with two wires
(http://[url=http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq352/ryan-pak/SNV81776.jpg]http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq352/ryan-pak/SNV81776.jpg[/url])
Yup, that's the exact page from the Yellow Jacket.
Fed with 12V but sends out a clean TTL-level 5V pulse for the ECU to process.
You really sure about this? Seems odd to have one wire supplying a 12v feed and the other giving a 5V out.
Common sense would say this is nothing more than a normally open pressure switch. Very unusual to have signal conditioning in the sensor body.
Any idea which wire might be the 12v feed and the 5V out?
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(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/startofinjectionsensor.jpg)
Actually pretty common to do signal processing on analog signals in a noisy electrical environment... like industrial plants or under the hood, and 5V is the industry standard signaling voltage.
It's an analog signal internally (from a piezo transducer) for a variety of possible reasons, starting with how difficult it would be to make mechanical contacts accurately switch at a precise pressure and 4000 RPM (8000 switch closures per second.... er....minute ;) ) for decades. ;)
The Yellowjacket says that the yellow/white wire is the supply line (+12V) and the grey/white wire is the signal line.
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The Yellowjacket says that the yellow/white wire is the supply line (+12V) and the grey/white wire is the signal line.
It does? It definitely says 12v feed? Just want to make doubly sure before I toast something. Shame if it is 12V because my PIC controller circuit only has a 5v rail.
I used to work for Beran designing online vibration monitoring systems for (amongst others) nuclear generating sets, so I've a little experience of interfacing with industrial spec transducers. But all the trans I worked with had the signal conditioning at the amplifier end, not on the piezo transducer.
Oh and you'll find that 4000 rpm produces a 266Hz signal - nothing like 8K ;) - I'm using PWM signals to simulate an engine running for my test bench.
edit: My maths is wrong too.... two pulses per engine rev so that's a 532 HZ signal, thanks for making me go back and double check.
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Always the cynic, my intuition told me that the sensor fitted to uk pumps appeared to be a pressure switch with no internal signal conditioning.
I arranged for a friend to meet me at the pub and to bring his wife's unmolested AAZ.
After the anticipated banter for me working in purple nitrile gloves I connected up the multimeter.
5v was present at both terminals with the engine off (also with the ignition off)
Starting the engine and 5v remained on the yellow/white wire but there is now a signal on the green/white wire - I'd guess a 5v square wave. Switch to frequency measurement and it's about 32Hz, blip the throttle sees it rise to 80Hz
So there you go, maybe it's UK specific but it's a normally closed pressure switch fed with 5v
Quite easy to convert this signal to drive a standard revcounter - watch the VNT controller thread....