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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: diesel smoke on January 07, 2010, 08:43:56 pm
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Alright, this is pretty much a copy n' paste of a thread I started on TDIClub, and thought I'd ask here too since folk here seem to know a bit more about what oddball part will fit something.
What I'm wanting to do is make myself a ALH mTDI for my bus, and I'm starting to collect information on the project. So far I've sourced a mechanical pump and determined what trans I'm gonna go with. What I'm stumped with is turbo options. I don't really want to go with the VNT route as I have no clue how I'd control it since I want to stay away from the electronics.
So I ask, what are my options with waste gate turbos?
I don't need high performance parts, all I want is something more powerful than the stock 1800cc Flat 4. Stock level performance from a TDI is more than enough to push the high top at highway speed. ;D
I know the MK 3 TDI's use a waste gate turbo, but will it fit and work with a ALH?
Thanks! :)
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I am pretty much in the same boat as you. I have a vanagon syncro, an ALH engine, a Landrover discovery TDi 300 pump and a VNT turbo.
I would like to get the VNT going if posible, the are some threads on the IDI section regarding contoling it, not to compicated and IMJ worth the extra time. What IP are you planing on using?
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I've been thinking about this for quite a while now & have done a fair bit of research on the subject. I'm pretty much finished building up my Mtdi, my rover pump got back from Giles yesterday.FYI he was pretty impressed with the rover pump although he though it might have some drivability issues in stock form, hangine rpm for example. I asked him if he'd write something up around here but he's a busy guy. Anyway,I have a VNT but just don't have the time to monkey around with the linkage these days I'm a one car family & commute in my van. I'll get to it but not for a while. I also don't want to break in a new rebuild with a turbo that could spike before I get the control system tweaked to perfection. So it being in a van I want little lag & 20psi on top, not the easiest thing to do. A K14 would be a good option but find a good one! They are also one of the harder turbos to rebuild due to the wastgate setup, so probably cost a buncho of cash to get one & rebuild/balance it.
From what I can see the best & easiest turbo to bolt onto a Mtdi is the K03/K04 hybrid wastgate unit that both Boraparts and Kermatdi sell. Basically its a Ko3 turbine with a K04 compressor. I drilled through the tdiclub forum & PM'd a bunch of guys there who have one & also talked to the folks at Kerma & bora parts. I was actually very surprised that the responses, of about half a dozen owners who replied all said the exact same thing. Good spool, 20psi and no issues. Its still a K03 hotside so its a bit constrictive at high RPM, I imagine in my van i'd be running around on the highway at 8-10psi so not the most efficient option from a EMP point of view. Also they have the stock K03 shaft, BUT from what I can see the K04's have the same 7mm shaft anyway. The best thing is if you have a rebuildable K03 around (I have 2) both of those vendors will give you a core exchange, $100 i think. Last time I looked they were around $700, not to shabby for a pro rebuild with all Garrett parts.
Here's the reply I got back from Boraparts when I inquired:
Hi Reuben,
Not sure if I got back to you yet... I don't have compressor maps, but I have heard the experience of over 70 customers and it's been nothing but the excellent. These turbos have been raced, auto-crossed, abused and driven everywhere from 18,000 feet in the Andes Mtns. to Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean. They work excellent in MTDI conversions, and they were built to run at 21 PSI. However, some customers have run them 22-23, with one auto-crosser running at 26. However, I do not recommend this high of a boost. 21 seems to be a good number to work with.
Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Thanks,
-Aaron
& another dude from tdiclub:
i like the hybrid, it definately has a lot more airflow, im about to make 2" i/c pipes to eliminate the 1.25 section just off the turbo. spool seems just a hair slower if any, top end is a bit less smokey. and i regularly see 18-21psi.
All that said I really do want my VNT & will go that route when time permits.
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;D Wow. Much better responses than what I got on TDIClub.
I was going to get a pump from http://www.westyventures.com/parts.html (http://www.westyventures.com/parts.html) but it seems that they are not offered anymore... so that leaves http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_132&products_id=109 (http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_132&products_id=109) .
Thanks blackdogvan, that's such a wealth of info. However I don't think I need the performance of the hybrid. I think too much power will destroy my transmission, so I think the stock K03 would be adequate since I'm going to run stock nozzles.
Bora parts has the K03 for a good price: http://www.boraparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=44 (http://www.boraparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=44)
(http://www.boraparts.com/popup_image.php?pID=44)
Now what would I need to do with the 2 small hose nipples, the one on the can in the top left corner of the pic, and the one near the output right beside the red cap?
How about the manifold? How would the stock one fit on the ALH?
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Connect those two outlets together with a rubber line and boost will run at stock levels, 9-11 psi. If you add a bleeder to the line you can increase the regulated boost psi to a higher level.
The stock exaust manifold will bolt right up to the alh or ahu.
I'm running a k14 turbo and manifold off of a aaz on my mtdi in my toyota pickup running 18-20 psi and loving it. I have a garrett t3 and a vnt turbo on the bench that I haven't tried yet. As soon as I get some spare time I plan on trying the vnt.
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;D Good to hear! I think I found the turbo that I'm gonna use. :D What would I need for it to run about 15 PSI? I'm after stock performance of a ALH...
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If you do a search on boost controllers you'll find the answer you're looking for. I'm using the simpliest and cheapest method of all. I bleed off boost pressure to the wastegate (top left outlet in the pic you posted). I T'ed off the rubber line between the two fittings on the turbo and used an adjustable valve to regulate how much boost I bleed off. The more boost you bleed off the more boost the turbo produces. Basically the wastegate only sees 10 psi while your actually pumping out 15 psi out of the turbo.
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and the k16 from audi100 2.5tdi audi a6,transporter ;)
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I was going to get a pump from http://www.westyventures.com/parts.html (http://www.westyventures.com/parts.html) but it seems that they are not offered anymore...
Yes, I did pull the pumps from the site temporarily. There have been some personal and family things that have become more important in my life at the moment, so I am taking a short break to concentrate on those for the next month or two. In March or thereabouts I will begin selling pumps again.
Turbos: I've been chatting with Nick at Street Toys, his WGT-17 is a nice upgrade, some say better than the K03/04. He also has some interesting manifolds. I will be testing a few of his products on my upcoming projects so will have a better idea on how they work then. The stock Garrett GT1548 is also a nice wastegated turbo, I've been running one of those on my mTDI for years. I believe Nick is also going to be offering a manual controller for the excellent VNT turbos soon, so keep those in mind as well.
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I vote gt2056v. You could swap to a bit smaller compressor if you wanted.
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I vote gt2056v. You could swap to a bit smaller compressor if you wanted.
Great turbo (i have one!) but this is a wastegate discussion.
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Yes, I did pull the pumps from the site temporarily. There have been some personal and family things that have become more important in my life at the moment, so I am taking a short break to concentrate on those for the next month or two. In March or thereabouts I will begin selling pumps again.
Turbos: I've been chatting with Nick at Street Toys, his WGT-17 is a nice upgrade, some say better than the K03/04. He also has some interesting manifolds. I will be testing a few of his products on my upcoming projects so will have a better idea on how they work then. The stock Garrett GT1548 is also a nice wastegated turbo, I've been running one of those on my mTDI for years. I believe Nick is also going to be offering a manual controller for the excellent VNT turbos soon, so keep those in mind as well.
Thanks for the info. I'm not starting on the project quite yet, so it works out ok. I'm just doing my homework before I start so I know what my plan of attack is. How much are you asking for the pumps?
As for the turbo, I think I'm gonna go with the K03. I think it's appropriately sized for what I'm wanting the engine to do, and they are affordable and easy enough to get. If it turns out that a K03 isn't enough, I'll upgrade. I'll probably start with a used one too, just so I'm sure and don't drop a bunch of coin on a new turbo that won't work well. Like I said, I don't want massive power, too much will liquefy my transmission.
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How much does the bus weigh? You might find the K03 to be too restrictive and as a result will cause high EGTs
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Bus probably weighs about 2 1/2 tons or so when it's all loaded down. Not 100% sure though. Never weighed it. And it's a hightop too.
Here's a pic of my rig:
(http://album.airriders.ca/3906.jpg)
She need some love, but it is a work in progress. ;D
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You could do some reading over on the samba, I think there are a few bay window diesel swap threads there. You may want to do some reading on oil coolers for example. Are the bay tranny's really that weak?
should be a cool rig, keep us updated!
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I know there has been a few threads on Samba, I'm a member there too, but there was never anything worth reading. You mean an oil cooler for the trans? The trans itself isn't really weak, it keeps itself together pretty good. The weak spot seems to be the input shaft.
There's a guy on our local club that put a 1.6 TD in a Baja bug and broke the input shaft on that. However, I know bus transmissions are quite a bit stronger.
I think I'm just trying to be conservative on this build.
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From what I can see the best & easiest turbo to bolt onto a Mtdi is the K03/K04 hybrid wastgate unit that both Boraparts and Kermatdi sell. Basically its a Ko3 turbine with a K04 compressor. I drilled through the tdiclub forum & PM'd a bunch of guys there who have one & also talked to the folks at Kerma & bora parts. I was actually very surprised that the responses, of about half a dozen owners who replied all said the exact same thing. Good spool, 20psi and no issues. Its still a K03 hotside so its a bit constrictive at high RPM, I imagine in my van i'd be running around on the highway at 8-10psi so not the most efficient option from a EMP point of view. Also they have the stock K03 shaft, BUT from what I can see the K04's have the same 7mm shaft anyway. The best thing is if you have a rebuildable K03 around (I have 2) both of those vendors will give you a core exchange, $100 i think. Last time I looked they were around $700, not to shabby for a pro rebuild with all Garrett parts.
Hello Blackdogvan,
Yes the K-03/04 is an ok turbo but you have a couple of problems with your analogy.
First, the main shaft of that turbo may be 7mm but the shaft diameter coming out through the compressor wheel is only 4mm! :(
Second, that turbo is a Borg and Warner KKK turbo and Garrett parts will not fit in it no matter what size hammer you intend to use! ;D These reasons alone is why I do not ever use a KKK based turbo in that frame size for a hybrid construction. ;)
My manual control unit is only weeks away from being released, I finally got my custom springs delivered for the boost control valve and the boost specific actuator will be in production very soon! It is only a very short time until everyone can install manually controlled VNT turbos in their M-TDI's ;) :) Less than 2 weeks by my calculations! :)
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not to shabby for a pro rebuild with all Garrett parts.
Hello Blackdogvan,
Yes the K-03/04 is an ok turbo but you have a couple of problems with your analogy.
First, the main shaft of that turbo may be 7mm but the shaft diameter coming out through the compressor wheel is only 4mm! :(
Second, that turbo is a Borg and Warner KKK turbo and Garrett parts will not fit in it no matter what size hammer you intend to use! ;D These reasons alone is why I do not ever use a KKK based turbo in that frame size for a hybrid construction. ;)
My manual control unit is only weeks away from being released, I finally got my custom springs delivered for the boost control valve and the boost specific actuator will be in production very soon! It is only a very short time until everyone can install manually controlled VNT turbos in their M-TDI's ;) :) Less than 2 weeks by my calculations! :)
Oops, nice catch on my brain fart, all KKK/BW parts i mean. The shaft size was one of my concerns on the hybrid, thats why I went to the trouble of asking so many owners if they recommended their turbo and they all did.
Well VNT's for everyone in a perfect world, the OP wanted info on the easist bolt on WG turbo, any info on your super 17 for this discussion? I am eagerly looking forward to news on your new VNT controller, need any guinea pigs?
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hey,
the k16 is a hybrid k24/k14 ,compressor k24/exhaust wheel k14(from 5cylindres tdi)
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would a K26 be any good? ive got one spare and i was gona run it in my corrado 1Z?
also anyone know what power a gt15 (not VNT) is capable of producing? after loosing my fight with VNT im never going back to that >:(
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would a K26 be any good? ive got one spare and i was gona run it in my corrado 1Z?
also anyone know what power a gt15 (not VNT) is capable of producing? after loosing my fight with VNT im never going back to that >:(
Too big Rich, look for a K16, (K14 turbine with K24 Compressor) You got them in Europe on the wastegate 5 cyl tdi's. Weren't the K26's on the 5 cyl audi gas burners?
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I'm curious about the K26 if anyone run one before.
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You might not have a turbo, but if you have a VNT why worry?
The VNT is more or less there to get less lag (faster spooling). Place it in an open state and it will still work but with a little more lag than usual. Save the money and make the change later. :)
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would a K26 be any good? ive got one spare and i was gona run it in my corrado 1Z?
also anyone know what power a gt15 (not VNT) is capable of producing? after loosing my fight with VNT im never going back to that >:(
i run a gt 15 on my golf i would say 130hp ish comes in at 1400rpm i am happy with the power it puts out and still brill on fuel
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I'm curious about the K26 if anyone run one before.
he start in a tdi elec at 3500tr/mn
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would a K26 be any good? ive got one spare and i was gona run it in my corrado 1Z?
also anyone know what power a gt15 (not VNT) is capable of producing? after loosing my fight with VNT im never going back to that >:(
Too big Rich, look for a K16, (K14 turbine with K24 Compressor) You got them in Europe on the wastegate 5 cyl tdi's. Weren't the K26's on the 5 cyl audi gas burners?
+1 it's the best compromise in the french section moïse in the one tdi-m he hase got this turbo
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golftd412000- I don't really understand what you mean? Could you please explain?
The K26 looks pretty big but I haven't done a side-by-side with a K24 to see exactly how much bigger they are. I had an e-AHU with a K24 on it and there was very little lag which seemed to surprise lots of people.
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yes in a tdi elec the k24 spol faster in a tdi-m the lag is mor important
for a picture of k16 see this:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=5250.450 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=5250.450)
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the K26 is going to be HUGE and LAGGY on a 1.6 diesel.
they came stock on 3.9 litre volvo penta diesels. and they were even laggy on those engines. they had superchargers to aid with the spool on most of the pentas.
not saying a straight K26 wont work, but if you took your GT15, put it on the engine first, and had a big external wastegate for it, and bolted the K26 on after the GT15, that would be a pretty good compound setup i would imagine. and you wouldnt have to be working either turbo very hard. then you would have enough boost to blow a hole in your hood about the size of a head/manifolds/injectors. haha.
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i talk k16 no k26