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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Doakster on December 24, 2009, 10:05:11 am
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Some may know i just finished up installing my new Giles IP and injectors. Keep the bad luck coming.
The car ran great for 60 miles, then suddenly lost power and died, leaving me stranded.
When I popped the truck I noticed a little air in the clear lines, I thought i might have sucked some air into the pump.
I tried sucking from the return line out of the "Out Bolt" and I could not pull a suction/vaccum on the pump to re-prime it. All i heard was gurgling coming from the pump. If i did this for a little while, trying to get a little fuel into the pump, i could get the car to fire, but it would sputter and died. It seems like the pump just doesn't want to move fuel. I've tried and tried to pull fuel through the pump, but id doesn't want to do it, and the car just dies anyway.
When i installed the pump, i had no problem priming the pump by sucking on the return line and pulling fuel through the pump, no gurgling noise then either.
I've checked all my lines, there are no leaks in the supply or return lines, no blockages in the lines or back to the tank, I have 12v at the solenoid with key on, and there is no obvious leaks on the body of the pump.
Not sure where to turn to, I'm trying to get a hold of Giles, but they are not open until the 4th.
Tyler, if your reading, I sent you a message on this too, please help me out if you can, or have Giles call me as soon as he's available.
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get a small automotive fuel pump? think lift pump...
works great if your pump is actually good and all the lines are clear of obstructions. my rabbit primes its self in about 3 seconds. turn the key on *tic tic tic tic* and then it fires right up, even if i just ran it clear out of fuel.
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get a small automotive fuel pump? think lift pump...
works great if your pump is actually good and all the lines are clear of obstructions. my rabbit primes its self in about 3 seconds. turn the key on *tic tic tic tic* and then it fires right up, even if i just ran it clear out of fuel.
i'm not going to try a band aid fix to a real problem, the car ran great for 60 miles and then lost power and died, there should be no reason why this new pump does not pull/push fuel
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Remove the pin from the fuel shut of solenoid and see if that makes a difference. I had one fail this summer, even though it was clicking and appeared to be OK.
Ian
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Are you trying to suck it out of the tank or do you have a fuel source close to the ip to eliminate blockages or leaks from the rest of the system?
Ian
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If you can't suck fuel into the pump and all you get is a gurgling sound, then the stop solenoid isn't the problem as it only affects the high pressure portion of the pump. I would assume that you have a leak that is letting air into the supply for the pump and/or you have a blockage preventing fuel from coming from the tank.
I agree, i need to start at the fuel tank, I'm going to pull the fuel pick up and take a look at it. I was able to easily blow back all the fuel in the return line from the filter to the tank, so that line is clear.
I have to take a look at the supply line from the filter to the tank and see if it's clogged.
I also checked the supply line from the pump to the tank, i pulled it off and lightly pressure tested it, no leaks, it also has new washers at the inlet banjo bolt on the pump, the bolt was/is tight so that's not the problem.
I just seemed odd to me that the car ran great, and then just didn't want to pump fuel, to me either it's a big air leak (which should be obvious) or something is wrong with the pump. An air leak to me just wouldn't happen all of a sudden like it did.
I'm leaning more toward an air leak somewhere, because if there was a blockage up stream of the pump, i would think i should be able to suck on the out bolt line all day long and pull a hard suction with no fuel flow, i can pull a slight suction with only gurgling at the pump.
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Are you trying to suck it out of the tank or do you have a fuel source close to the ip to eliminate blockages or leaks from the rest of the system?
Ian
I'm sucking from the out bolt of the pump, essentially trying to prime the pump by pulling fuel from the tank, filter and to the pump, that's when i can't get fuel to flow, just gurgling sound in the pump
If i have to rig up a seperate 5 gallon tank and run it on that for a bit to show the pump is good/bad then i will.
I'm also going to try and pull a vacuum on the system with brake bleed/vaccum pump and see how that goes.
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I had a simular problem. New pump, new filter, new rubber hoses, new everything. Runs great for a while and then no fuel. Sit for a bit and then I could start it then nothing. I pulled the tank, and there was the problem. Clogged filter that sits in the bottom of tank. All kinds of stuff, but mostly some white crusty chalky residue covering the filter. Cleaned with brake clean and new fuel, sucked out most as posable and have never had any problems sence.
My two cents.
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I had a simular problem. New pump, new filter, new rubber hoses, new everything. Runs great for a while and then no fuel. Sit for a bit and then I could start it then nothing. I pulled the tank, and there was the problem. Clogged filter that sits in the bottom of tank. All kinds of stuff, but mostly some white crusty chalky residue covering the filter. Cleaned with brake clean and new fuel, sucked out most as posable and have never had any problems sence.
My two cents.
Man i hope it is just as easy of a fix for me, the car had been sitting for a few months before i got it all back together, so maybe some sediment/crud formed and made it's way into the pick up.
Did you say you cleaned out the tank too, if so, what did you end up sucking it out with, shop vac?
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It wouldn't be all that hard to run a line from before the fuel filter and the return line into a container of diesel just to test the pump for operation before getting too involved in the tank.
Yup, good idea, going to give that a try
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i had pine needles clogging the inlet banjo to my filter once, and another time i had a completely clogged fuel tank outlet. and the usual air leaks from the old rubber hoses.
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Electric fuel pump with a filter in front of it can be used to "vacuum" the crud from the tank's pickup area,.. then pump filtered fuel back into the tank..
If you can't suck fuel from the output of the pump,
it's time to see if you can suck fuel through the filter.
,.. or even before the filter.
Blowing on the supply line doesn't prove fuel can be pulled from it.
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Is this a mk2? On the rabbits you can get to the in-tank filter under the rear seat, there's a little hatch.
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Is this a mk2? On the rabbits you can get to the in-tank filter under the rear seat, there's a little hatch.
MK2 Jetta, it's no big dealing getting into the tank cover, it's in the trunk just under the carpet.
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I'm pretty sure i found the issue, and it's not the pump, pretty sure it's the supply line check valve on the outlet of the water separator.
I started off by just running the pump directly off the filter through a can of diesel, the car ran fine.
Then i started working my way back and checking for blockages in the return and supply lines, I disconnected the supply line at the tank and blew back with air toward the filter (line was disconnected at the filter), seemed like there wasn't much restriction, I did the same with the return line, no blockage what so ever.
Then i pulled the pick up tube, the tube was completely clean, no crud, in the tank there was only one small piece of junk, otherwise it was clean around the pick up, I reinstalled everything and fired the car pulling fuel from the tank, the car fired but died withing a few minute, and i noticed when it did, fuel rushed back from the pump to the filter, so a suction was building up on the line due to a blockage still somewhere.
So i pulled the supply line apart at the check valve out of the water separator, hooked up my can of diesel again and ran car directly from that section of line, car ran fine, so now i knew from the check valve back was the problem.
I cleared the lines directly from the tank to the water separator, there was no blockage and i could easily blow the lines down with my mouth.
I re-plumbed the supply line without the check valve in place, car ran fine. When testing the check valve it does in fact open but it seems pretty hard to do so, either blowing/sucking by mouth or with air.
Of course no parts stores are open until monday due to the holidays, so it will have to wait until i get a generic check valve.
Is there any reason why they bother to install a check valve, I know it is supposed to keep the fuel in the lines when the you shut the car off, but the lines are the low point in the system and the fuel wouldn't migrate back up to the tank.
Anyone run their car with out one?
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I don't think the mk1s have a check valve.
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I don't know where to turn with this problem, I decided to remove the check valve completely, and plumb that section with new fuel line thinking that would solve the issue.
After doing that, the car did run for a while, but I still get the stalling, i almost have to leave the cold start out to get the idle up to keep the car running.
I've replaced all the fuel lines at the filter, except the line going to the pump with the banjo fitting, I pressure tested that and it's good. I can easily blow down the supply and return lines, so there is absolutely no restrictions from the tank to the filter, or from the filter to the pump.
I've seriously looked at everything in the fuel delivery system and can't find any leaks or blockages, is it possible for the pump itself to be sucking in air??
I can still see a few slugs of air that are in the supply line to the pump, how long should it take for all the air to get out of the system after you have break the system to work on it?
I'm at my wits end.
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Just did a little more trouble shooting.
I had black rubber line on the return line from the pump to the filter, so i installed some temporary clear line.
Re-primed the pump, started the car, and it ran for awhile, small amounts of air were in the supply line from the filter to the pump, so one would assume it should clear up.
On the clear return line there was mass amounts of air, to the point the line was milky white and never cleared up.
After about 5 mins, it's like the pump gets air bound and just stops pulling fuel, chokes off and the car dies.
I've checked, and re-checked the inlet and outlet banjo bolts on the pump and they are tight.
I can only assume the pump is sucking in air somewhere.
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Remove the fuel line from the tank pickup. Plug it. Try blowing into it and sucking on it. Does it maintain pressure? Try that for the return as well.
I think i'm going to block and pressurize the lines to 5-10 psi or so and see if there are any leaks.
Also, when running the pump there are only a few air bubbles that will migrate through the supply line to the pump, but on the return line it looks like a milkshake, seem like there is a lot more air on the return side of the pump, then is actually going into the pump, leading me to believe air is sucking into the pump is self somewhere.
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But did you see any air when you ran the car from a bucket?
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But did you see any air when you ran the car from a bucket?
There wasn't much, so I'm going to retest with that method today, and pressure test all my lines to the tank. I can see where you're going with that question.
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thats why i like the lift pumps so much, cause they run at about 5 psi, and thats enough to show a leak. and if a leak shows, its easy to fix. ever since i put an electric lift pump before my fuel filter, ive had no fuel system related problems. when i got my car, i fought fuel system problems for the first year.
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Just because a line doesn't leak when you have it pressurized does not mean it will not leak under vacuum unfortunately.
What year is your car? If it has the fuel filter with the return valve thing in it that could be the problem. They recirculate the fuel back to the pump until it gets to a certain temperature. This also means that it recirculates the air.
Do you still have the water separator hooked up? That thing can cause a major restriction and increase the vacuum in the lines and cause air leaks. If you still have it try bypassing it. It is a useless device, only the mk2 diesels have it.
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Yup, this is why the bucket test is a good differentiator... if you can get the engine running clean with no bubbles etc from a bucket you're pretty much ruled out the pump and return lines as sources of air, and can proceed to go over the rest of the system with a fine-tooth comb.
I say "pretty much" because I suppose it's possible that a leak might only show up under the higher vacuums of pulling all the way from the tank... but I've never heard of a pump circuit with an air leak that doesn't show up when running off a bucket.
Tyler is on to something btw... the thermo T can be a pain.. the o-ring can degrade or jam sideways as it's being installed, the T itself can crack, and it also lets air on the outlet side (say, from the injector return lines) bleed into the intake and confuse things.
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Hi Andy
Sitting on my Dad's couch in the UK reading about your problems.
best thing to test the pump is the "bucket test" and feed the pump seperately and the return
back into the bucket. prime the pump and then run the car on the other source of fuel
you will get air in the return of the pump for quite a while.
pumps can't make air and they will leak before they suck air unless their source is
blocked off
hope you get it running
Giles
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Hi Andy
Sitting on my Dad's couch in the UK reading about your problems.
best thing to test the pump is the "bucket test" and feed the pump seperately and the return
back into the bucket. prime the pump and then run the car on the other source of fuel
you will get air in the return of the pump for quite a while.
pumps can't make air and they will leak before they suck air unless their source is
blocked off
hope you get it running
Giles
Hi Giles, thanks for the reply and the suggests, I'm pretty sure I found the problem. After some more trouble shooting this is what i found.
- Ran the car with supply and return on a can of diesel right to the filter, car ran ok, at first the supply line had no air going into the pump, the return line eventually cleared of air after 5-10 mins of idle, but when revving the motor I would get a surge of air coming out of the return line, and no air going into the supply line of the pump. To me that points to the pump sucking in air.
- Next i pressure tested the supply and return lines, i found the sensor on top of the water/oil separator was leaking badly, ok thought i found the problem, i completely removed the separator, and re-plumbed the lines, I re-pressure tested and the supply and return lines held fairly well. Tried to run the car off the fuel tank, it would run for a while but did the same thing as the can test, surges of air on the return side of the pump.
-I went a step further and ran a brand new rubber fuel line directly from the fuel tank and to the filter, i even pulled the pick up unit and stuck the line directly in the tank so the cars supply line is completely bypassed. The car did the same thing, would barely run and still had surges of air in the return line of the pump. In this case there was absolutely no blockage of fuel to the pump.
So now i know that it is not my fuel lines, i completely bypassed them and ran the car directly from the fuel tank and tried a separate can of diesel and got the same result.
After all this i am getting large surges of air in the return line (looks like a milkshake when i rev the motor), and very little if any fuel in the supply line again leading me to believe the pump is sucking in air.
So I decided to pop off the timing cover and what did I find?
A leaking pump shaft seal. A small amount of diesel was present only on the bottom side of the timing cover, directly below the pump pulley. And I was able to reach my finger in behind the pulley and feel diesel directly below the pump seal.
So at the very least i need to get this replaced, and based on all the troubleshooting i did, this better be the solution, I've looked over the entire fuel system and bypassed the entire fuel system, that's not the issue.
Also the car runs slightly better and longer before it dies on a can of diesel, rather than pulling fuel from the tank. My guess on this is because on the can of diesel is doesn't need to provide as much suction compared to the longer run of line that is needs to pull a suction on when going to the tank.
It's just too much of a coincidence that the car ran great on the pump for 60 miles or so, died and this issue has come up, and before the new pump i never had a fuel delivery/blockage issue.
Any other comments are appreciated.
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You sir, are having bad luck ;D Sounds like the seal is leaking really bad, I've heard of them leaking fuel out but never heard of it sucking soooo much air that it quit.
I bet once the leaky seal is fixed it'll work fine. 8)
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You sir, are having bad luck ;D Sounds like the seal is leaking really bad, I've heard of them leaking fuel out but never heard of it sucking soooo much air that it quit.
I bet once the leaky seal is fixed it'll work fine. 8)
This car has been the death of me, worst luck i've had with any vehicle.
I just went out and stuck my finger underneath the seal again, i can get a good pool of diesel to develop on my finger.
I seriously have looked at the ENTIRE fuel delivery system and bypassed the ENTIRE fuel delivery system, this is the only issue i can find.
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How tight is your timing belt? Overly tight and it will trash that injection pump bushing extremely quickly and cause the seal to fail in the way you describe.
I tightened right to the recommendation out of the bentley, so that it can be twisted about a 1/4 turn (45 degrees the bentley says) between the cam pulley and the IP pulley. I tightened it to that spec when i first installed the pump and that is still the tension as it stands right now.
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How hard do you have to try to twist the belt 45 degrees? I usually set them so I can easily twist 45 and if I try hard I can almost get a full 90 out of them.
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My money is on the timing belt was tightened too tight. I too used the 45 degree method once and never again. Almost messed up out the pump shaft bushing on one of my Diesels. Shortly after this I purchased the proper belt tensioning tool and I have never looked back. I always tighten my belts to exactly the same number on the gauge and I never have any problems.
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Man you really stuck it out. Good for you. Glad you figured it out.
I had a similiar problem, as the shaft seal was bad/ leaky. I use compressed air and shoot it at the pump seal. You can watch the air bubble come out through the feed/inlet line on pump.
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How tight is your timing belt? Overly tight and it will trash that injection pump bushing extremely quickly and cause the seal to fail in the way you describe.
That is a very good point, using only the thumb and pinky you should be able to twist it 45*.
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Hi Andy
Sitting on my Dad's couch in the UK reading about your problems.
best thing to test the pump is the "bucket test" and feed the pump seperately and the return
back into the bucket. prime the pump and then run the car on the other source of fuel
you will get air in the return of the pump for quite a while.
pumps can't make air and they will leak before they suck air unless their source is
blocked off
hope you get it running
Giles
Hi Giles, thanks for the reply and the suggests, I'm pretty sure I found the problem. After some more trouble shooting this is what i found.
- Ran the car with supply and return on a can of diesel right to the filter, car ran ok, at first the supply line had no air going into the pump, the return line eventually cleared of air after 5-10 mins of idle, but when revving the motor I would get a surge of air coming out of the return line, and no air going into the supply line of the pump. To me that points to the pump sucking in air.
- Next i pressure tested the supply and return lines, i found the sensor on top of the water/oil separator was leaking badly, ok thought i found the problem, i completely removed the separator, and re-plumbed the lines, I re-pressure tested and the supply and return lines held fairly well. Tried to run the car off the fuel tank, it would run for a while but did the same thing as the can test, surges of air on the return side of the pump.
-I went a step further and ran a brand new rubber fuel line directly from the fuel tank and to the filter, i even pulled the pick up unit and stuck the line directly in the tank so the cars supply line is completely bypassed. The car did the same thing, would barely run and still had surges of air in the return line of the pump. In this case there was absolutely no blockage of fuel to the pump.
So now i know that it is not my fuel lines, i completely bypassed them and ran the car directly from the fuel tank and tried a separate can of diesel and got the same result.
After all this i am getting large surges of air in the return line (looks like a milkshake when i rev the motor), and very little if any fuel in the supply line again leading me to believe the pump is sucking in air.
So I decided to pop off the timing cover and what did I find?
A leaking pump shaft seal. A small amount of diesel was present only on the bottom side of the timing cover, directly below the pump pulley. And I was able to reach my finger in behind the pulley and feel diesel directly below the pump seal.
So at the very least i need to get this replaced, and based on all the troubleshooting i did, this better be the solution, I've looked over the entire fuel system and bypassed the entire fuel system, that's not the issue.
Also the car runs slightly better and longer before it dies on a can of diesel, rather than pulling fuel from the tank. My guess on this is because on the can of diesel is doesn't need to provide as much suction compared to the longer run of line that is needs to pull a suction on when going to the tank.
It's just too much of a coincidence that the car ran great on the pump for 60 miles or so, died and this issue has come up, and before the new pump i never had a fuel delivery/blockage issue.
Any other comments are appreciated.
i kinda had a feeling it was the input shaft seal. just by the way you described it. my old pump used to do exactly the same crap.
and ive never had a problem over tightening the timing belt, i just do it by hand. no spanner wrench or anything. turn the engine clockwise so the belt is being pulled tight, then push a little tension on the tensioner pulley. if i can tighten it too tight with my hands, something is wrong..
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While we are all betting 8)
I will wager it was a nick on the seal or shaft, not overtightened TB.
That said.... get rid of that water separator. My A2's often give me headaches in the water separator. >:( (and blinking glow plug lights for various reasons ??? (bad grounds, bad connections on cluster, sick relay, no reason at all...(maybe cuz it's x-mas ;))).
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Couple responses to every ones posts.
- Water separator and supply line check valve has been removed. Rubber fuel line is now in place of those items.
- For my timing belt tension, i can use the "pinky and thumb" method and twist to 45 degrees and a little beyond that if I wish, I can't go to 90 degrees but I don't believe i had the belt too tight.
I did this exactly same procedure and tightened the belt to what i mentioned above previously when i did my timing belt 2 summers ago, and my ECO pump seal never went out on me.
But in the future, can someone give me a link to purchase a tensioning tool/measuring device. This will probably not be the last time i loosen or replace a timing belt so it will be good for my future use.
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- For my timing belt tension, i can use the "pinky and thumb" method and twist to 45 degrees and a little beyond that if I wish, I can't go to 90 degrees but I don't believe i had the belt too tight.
Sounds like you are doing it right, why spend ~$200 if you don't need to?
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- For my timing belt tension, i can use the "pinky and thumb" method and twist to 45 degrees and a little beyond that if I wish, I can't go to 90 degrees but I don't believe i had the belt too tight.
Sounds like you are doing it right, why spend ~$200 if you don't need to?
Well, honestly it probably would have paid for itself by now, think of it this way,
If i install a timing belt too tight, which i'm glad we agree i didn't in this case, and it possibly causes the seal to get wiped out, I have to take the time to pull the pump, send it up to you guys, which will probably be at least 2-3 weeks in down time.
Now take that 2-3 weeks and add the fuel cost of me driving around my diesel truck which gets 15mpg in the winter, and it might pay for the tension tool.
The car has been down or not running since this summer for injectors, pulled trans to get rebuilt, bad clutch, new IP, etc. etc. the list goes on, time to get this car back up and running so it can serve the purpose i bought it for, my daily driver.
Even though I think we can agree i installed the timing belt right, i'd rather spend the money on the tool and take absolutely no chances next time.
Just my thought process.
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Makes sense. I have a link on my home computer that I'll post when I get home
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I take it this will work for a tension measuring tool.
http://www.etoolcart.com/otc-belt-tension-gauge-6673.aspx (http://www.etoolcart.com/otc-belt-tension-gauge-6673.aspx)
Also you can get a little cheap one off Ebay for $50
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Makes sense. I have a link on my home computer that I'll post when I get home
Thanks, I'd appreciate it.
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Not sure that tool will work.. at least not without some headscratching and wondering if you're getting the same readings as the VW spec.
For reference, here's what the "official" tool looks like:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=10275.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=10275.0)
Klann makes an economical version, as per the thread.
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Not sure that tool will work.. at least not without some headscratching and wondering if you're getting the same readings as the VW spec.
For reference, here's what the "official" tool looks like:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=10275.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=10275.0)
Klann makes an economical version, as per the thread.
Ahh thanks Vince, those are all over ebay, time to order one up, those are the cheaper ones too at $50.
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Also, from out of the post about using the timing belt tension tool compared to the "twist" method of checking, this is what was written.
"I believe you set the knob for the desired tension, basically the metal of the knob will stopat the desired number, then put it on the belt, and tighten the belt until the pointer matches your desired tension. The numbers on the knob are a finer scale for exact tension. At least that's what I did when I borrowed one. Doing the twist test, it was more than 45 degrees, but less than 90."
That sounds just about how I have my timing belt set right now, can go just beyond 45, but not to 90.
I'm going to use the tool on the install, and see where it puts the tension at.
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Bear in mind that the timing belt tension tool should be used on the timing belt while the camshaft sprocket is free to turn on the cam and the crank should have been rotated clockwise to TDC just prior to be sure there is no slack between the crank and pump. Not following those guidelines can lead to dramatically different belt tension measurements.
You're referring to this method being performed when the tension "measuring" tool is being used, correct?
I see you're points in cam sprocket being loose and rotating clockwise to TDC, essentially you are taking all the slack up in the belt before tensioning, and allowing tension to be taking up with the loose cam sprocket when tightening the belt.
I would think after "proper" tension is applied, rotating the motor 1 or 2 full revolutions and then rechecking with the measuring tool would give you an accurate reading and you can see if it changed any from when you first set the tension. I always do this anyway to verify the belt tracks, and recheck my belt tension is still the same.
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Sorry if this seems out of context but im seconding something i think rabbit on roids said about the shaft seal on the pump not being pressed fully (or is damaged on install)
That is a very logical place for the pump to suck air from ...
ps. I didn't mean to point the finger at your Giles, it was merely a suggestion but i know you don't think i was. I just wanted to clarify that in black and white. IF i had the money, as i've said to you before :P , i'd pay you to do me up a wicked pump with a huge pump head :D and properly calibrated, non-leaking injectors. Siighhhh maybe one day ...
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Here is the link. It is 159.99
http://www.samstagsales.com/vwaudi.htm#axle (http://www.samstagsales.com/vwaudi.htm#axle)
Search for "VW210" and you will find it.
I have never dealt with these guys but got their link from a vendor on vortex that said they get almost all their specialty tools from there.
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Or a cheaper version...
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400094272995&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400094272995&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT)
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Yup, I ordered the one off ebay, $50 bucks shipped, and it seems like a decent tool, made of all steel, while the VAG210 looked like it was part plastic.
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Hi Andy
back home now, in Keswick, ON, Canada
reading about your sucking air pump is getting allot of attention, thanks very much for all the great suggestions guys.
the belt tension thing to me sounds about the best option right now. too tight will very quickly ruin the brass drive shaft
bushings and beyon the Bosch limit of .25mm drive shaft play. we replace the bushings if it's even close to .2mm to give
max life to the new owner of their pump.
take the belt off the pump pulley and measure the side to side play of the shaft at the base if you can.
i am not saying we can't make a mistake installing the shaft seal but it's highly unlikely. the seal is the first thing to go into
the housing before the drive shaft even, then the drive shaft very carefully with oil on it.
i have called andy and am waiting for him to call back now.
one other thing, a pump can seem like it's making air when you rev it up because there is allot of air trapped in the advance
piston gaps during a fresh install and it takes allong time to clear this and it won't unless you rev the motor up. so don't give
up just because you see air. keep doing it.
Giles
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there was still fresh diesel under the timing belt cover, he said it was coming from the seal.
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Little update, talked to Giles today, thanks for all the support and help.
Basically I'm going to measure the end play in the pump shaft and see what it comes up to. I probably won't get to it for a few days, and I have to see if my work will let me borrow the dial indicator with the magnetic base.
Long story short, my hunch is there is going to be some excessive play in the pump shaft, meaning bushing is toast.
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Ahhh....screw it, i just ordered a cheap mag base and dial indicator off Amazon, probably take a week or more to get here, i could use one anyway.
In the mean time, i'll pull the timing belt off and check for play by hand, or maybe rig something up with my set of calipers to measure the end play.
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techcically it's side to side play not end play, when you check it make sure it's at about 35-40 deg below horizontal on the shaft
on left side of drive shaft looking at it straight on. this is the same angle as the belt pulls down and to the left.
Giles
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techcically it's side to side play not end play, when you check it make sure it's at about 35-40 deg below horizontal on the shaft
on left side of drive shaft looking at it straight on. this is the same angle as the belt pulls down and to the left.
Giles
Gotcha, i said end play, but knew you meant side to side play when we talked.
Do you always measure with the pump pulley removed? Or would there be any benefit to keeping the pump pulley on when measuring. Seems like you should get the same measurement regardless.
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techcically it's side to side play not end play, when you check it make sure it's at about 35-40 deg below horizontal on the shaft
on left side of drive shaft looking at it straight on. this is the same angle as the belt pulls down and to the left.
Giles
Gotcha, i said end play, but knew you meant side to side play when we talked.
Do you always measure with the pump pulley removed? Or would there be any benefit to keeping the pump pulley on when measuring. Seems like you should get the same measurement regardless.
The pulley will give you something to push on provided you can get the tool behind it.......
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Finally had a chance to pull the IP pulley off and take a look at the pump today, this is what i found with the pulley off, pretty obvious the pump seal is leaking.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x82/andydoaki/Jetta%20Diesel/IMG_1008.jpg)
Since i haven't received my mag base and dial indicator yet, i checked the side play by hand, here is a shot of the pump looking straight at the shaft.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x82/andydoaki/Jetta%20Diesel/IMG_1009.jpg)
And here is a pic with a little side pressure on the shaft, pretty obvious there is excessive play, i figure it is around 3mm or more, also fuel POURED out of the seal very badly when doing this. Going to send the pump back to Giles.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x82/andydoaki/Jetta%20Diesel/IMG_1010.jpg)
It's pretty obvious the timing belt tension must have been the problem, I just can't win with this car. I'm sure Giles will straighten things out. Giles if you are reading I sent you and email with a few other detail, I'll touch base with you soon.
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Crazy......the belt would've had to be waaaay too tight to wear it that fast, I thought I read somewhere that a t-belt that much over tightened will just break? Or at least whine really loud.
Too bad though :'(
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Crazy......the belt would've had to be waaaay too tight to wear it that fast, I thought I read somewhere that a t-belt that much over tightened will just break? Or at least whine really loud.
Too bad though :'(
Yeah, kind of a sucky situation. All I can say is that it was tightened to the 45 degrees twist test, and I could go a little further.
Pretty frustrating, but it will get fixed.
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One thing I've discovered is the belt isn't supposed to "stretch" during the twisting, it's supposed to just be taking the slop out of it.
I usually measure the slop just by yanking the belt up and down between the pump and cam, IIRC it should go almost an inch from top to bottom to take the slop out.
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Crazy......the belt would've had to be waaaay too tight to wear it that fast, I thought I read somewhere that a t-belt that much over tightened will just break? Or at least whine really loud.
Too bad though :'(
Yeah, kind of a sucky situation. All I can say is that it was tightened to the 45 degrees twist test, and I could go a little further.
Pretty frustrating, but it will get fixed.
Does the play in the shaft also allow you to lift upwards? It does seem strange that it only took 60 miles to wear that far. If however the bearing is slack all round , then belt tension is not the issue. A correctly tensioned belt may rely on the strength of the seal itself for a few miles before leaking... Perhaps :-\