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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: MoparEd on December 16, 2009, 09:21:45 pm
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Hi,
I have a 95 AAZ Passat that after some consideration, I have decided to rebuild the engine rather than junk it.
Stupid me, I bought this car without doing any research on it and vw diesels in general. After getting the car, I found this forum and started reading up on common problems and such. I had Giles and Tyler at performance diesel mod the crank for me and install a tdi pulley and new diesel injection pump, but the car burns more oil than it does diesel (roughly 1L oil to 30 kms....No im not kidding). I didnt know much about the cars history before buying it, Just figured all the smoke was from the timing being off (both pump and engine timing)and a bad crank pulley.
Now, I can just ditch the car and cut my losses, But its in great shape and since ive gone as far as to get the crank modded and put on a new diesel injection pump, I might as well just finish the job and hope I can get a couple of mostly trouble free years out of it. Ive always wanted to build my own engine and I was hoping it would have been in the summer and not in the dead of winter, but I have to do something right now. I can always buy another used engine and hope for the best, but then again, The car i'll be getting the engine from is being scrapped for a reason.
So here are my questions.......
I was told by a retired vw mechanic that I should by no means hone the cylinder walls by hand drill with a honer attached. He said that he will guarantee that the cylinder walls are tapered and the only way to get it right is at a machine shop. Especially if I wanted it to last. Should I take this advice? I was going to hone the cylinders myself.
this website: www.volkswaparts.com (http://www.volkswaparts.com). Has anyone purchased from them, Are they quality parts or cheap china ***?
What I found out after I bought the car and read the receipts that were left in the console is that it looks like to me that the timing belt broke at 280,000 kms and it took out some valves. I will be getting the head checked out as well once removed. The car now has 290,000 kms, runs good thanks to Tyler and Giles, but consumes oil pretty badly and smokes all the time (oil smoke)
The parts im going to need for the bottom end are:
Engine gasket kit,
Head gasket (gotta figure out the proper thickness right?),
Piston Rings,
Crank Bearings,
Rod Bearings,
IM Shaft Bearings (mine are worn)
Oil Pump
Water Pump (?)
Am I forgetting anything?
I have not built an engine before, so chances are, Ill be posting pics and asking questions as I move along with this project. I should have the engine out by the weekend (have to get my engine hoist from up north, otherwise, id have it out now lol)
Thanks
Ed
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I'm in the exact same boat as you are. My AAZ is on a stand in my garage right now :)
I ordered some stuff from that site, mainly the timing belt kit, headgasket and engine gasket kit, but I have no experience with them beyond the fact that they have freaking everything. I did notice some made in China labels on some of the stuff and it did get me a bit nervous. Specifically the brand new T3 for under $400 with a one year warranty, I'm very very tempted.
I'll be watching this thread for answers as well.
Good luck.
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Sounds like an awful lot of oil for the mileage. I'd be looking elswhere before I pulled the engine apart. Maybe the seal is gone out of the turbo? See if you can find a compression tester to check it out before you pull it all apart.
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If it runs fine and still consumes that much oil, it's most likely the turbo. They can go just like that, with little prior warning.
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As far as Prothe's parts go (the website you were referring to) there has been much discussion on this and other forums regarding his parts and questionable quality.
As long as you know his parts are coming from China, and you are OK with that, its your decision. There are stories of his parts self destructing, being horrible quality, his customer service spotty......but on the other hand there are also stories of his parts being fine, good customer service, and fast delivery. So you should just read and use your own judgement. There are lots of guys who have been very outspoken against him because of his cheap parts.....well there's no mystery where his parts come from. He's not saying they are German quality.
A couple of years ago I bought a few parts from him, but mainly things where quality wasnt that important....like a gasket or little tool or whatever. Except for a set of pistons. I did install a set in my 1.6TD and I must say they appeared very high quality as far as my eye and my micrometers could tell. I probably have 30,000 miles on that motor now. Time will tell if I made the right decision. I've never bought a turbo, head or injection pump from him. I will say that on these forums I have not heard one good thing about his injection pumps, so take that for what its worth. Again, do a search and find out for yourself.
I personally believe he has not been selling parts for long enough for most of his more complex engine components (heads, injector pumps, turbos, oil pumps etc) to have enough miles on them to determine how well they will hold up. I mean if you bought one of his heads two years ago and put it on your car you might only have 35 or 45 thousand miles on it by now.
It comes down to the old saying you get what you pay for. While his cheaper parts may well be fine for some people, and may well stand the test of time, many of us would just prefer to spend a bit more money on what we KNOW to be quality parts.
FWIW I am not trying to hate on Prothe or his parts, I do think he fills a certain niche, as long as people are aware that they are not buying German parts I see nothing wrong with what he is selling. If it turns out that, in 5 years there are diesel motors in peoples cars all over that are having problems due to the quality of his parts, he may have a problem.
As far as your motor goes, I cant understand why the mechanic told you to not hone the cylinders. But there's more information needed to say yes or no. Obviously if your bores are out of spec (most of these diesel motors are out of spec when the piston to cylinder wall clearance is greater than about .003") then you will need a re-bore with oversized cylinders and new rings.....and yes, your machine shop will hone the cylinders following the re-bore job to get the clearance just right. Get a Bentley manual for your car to see all the factory specs. You need this. Anybody on this forum will be happy to tell you any spec you need but just buying the book is a great resource. If the cylinders are within spec for wall clearance and ovality, and you are NOT re-boring, then yes you absolutely should hone them before
putting in a new set of rings. Your drill powered deglazer hone will not change the overall bore size, just cross hatch the walls....unless you sit there for 15 minutes going up and down with the damn thing!
Dont forget bolts for the bottom end...rods and mains. Although to be honest the Bentley manual isnt really clear on if you actually must replace the main bolts. It just makes mention that if you have the old style bolt to make sure you get the new ones. I have asked this question about replacing main bolts on this forum before and never got an answer. Also you must replace the flywheel bolts and head bolts.
Oil pump.....you can check it according to the book to see if its out of spec. If it was putting out good oil pressure and it looks fine and is within spec, theres no real reason to replace it in my opinion. Water pump.....sure why not its cheap.
You'll also need a couple basic tools to re-time the motor to hold everything in place while installing the timing belt....but you can make do without them by making your own tools. And then to re-time the injection pump you will need a dial indicator and holding tool that goes in the injection pump.
Installing intermediate shaft bearings takes a special tool....I assume most engine building shops have something to do this....I made my own. In the FAQ section Andrew (libbybapa) has a good writeup on what this tool should work like.
Man there's tons more, just ask if you get in a jam......have fun!
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Also you must replace the flywheel bolts
Flywheel bolts can be reused. Pressure plate bolts can not be reused.
This engine has a lot of blowby. We pulled the boost tube between the turbo and intake manifold and revved it and it the RPMs were hanging and the CCV was blowing out lots of oil mist. The turbo was blowing a bit of oil mist. The pump was set up on the test bench as stock so it's not the pump causing the hanging. The injectors were ok. Not new, but not bad enough to warrant a rebuild.
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Thanks for all the input so far! I will be hauling out the engine this weekend. I will be looking for a bentley manual locally as I have the body and electrical bentley that came with the car. Im going to price out some parts tomorrow and try to come up with a ballpark figure and get ready for this project. Also going to do some reading in the faq section and learn some tips and tricks.
Thanks again
Ed
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My guess would be that it is the valve seals. Especially since the head was damaged. I struggled with this problem on a 1.6 and after numerous problems discovered that the head rebuilder had screwed up the valve seal. Pull the head off and have a good shop check it over. The valves may have been slightly bent and the guides and seals are causing the problem. Once the head is off you can easily check the rings for wear and the cylinders for out of round. I doubt if it is badly warn at the kms though.
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So....
I started up the car this morning after having it sit for a couple of days and it smoked pretty bad for a while, def oil smoke. I let it sit there and idle for about 5 minutes and watched it as the smoke became less and less. I then took the car for a 5 minute drive to get it to operating temperature and guess what, once the car is warm... No more smoke, just a little black when I get on the throttle.
I have the car in the driveway right now idling and its clean as a whistle. Im wondering now if I do need a complete overhaul. Im thinking its a problem with the head and maybe I should rebuild it and try it again. I do know the IM shaft bearings are a bit worn, and that concerns me....
Oh and I found a real nice oil leak coming from the Crank vent tube thats on the block (yea, the one I broke and replaced. and used the o-ring that came with it). Looks like its not sealing.
Ed
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Are you sure you have it fully seated? It's a real bear to get in there sometimes.
If it's better when warm I would lean more towards a problem with the bottom end but I could be way off base there.
What grade of oil did you top up with?
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Are you sure you have it fully seated? It's a real bear to get in there sometimes.
If it's better when warm I would lean more towards a problem with the bottom end but I could be way off base there.
What grade of oil did you top up with?
I probably dont have it seated right. I put 15w40 in it when I picked it up. You would know better than I would, This is my first diesel, and my first car with engine problems. I just hope if it is the bottom end, that I can get away with honing the cylinders.
Now for something funny.... I took the car for a short drive today, got out looked at the exhaust pipe, no smoke. I stop at some shop that does emission testing in Brampton here by me. The mechanic comes out, looks at the car, says "looks ok , put it in bay 1". I put the car by the emissions test equipment and go to the waiting room and look at them through a window. Another mechanic gets in the car and pegs the gas pedal to the floor for like 10 seconds and absoutely fills all 3 bays and the office with smoke. What a laugh! all I could hear was "SHUT IT OFF!!!! SHUT IT OFF!!!!" All I could do was laugh. The mechanic comes back and says "Dude, I cant pass this" I said "I was under the impression that it was a idle test not a rev limit test" hahaha. I went back an hour later with my old Srt to get it aligned and the place still reaked of oil smoke. I didnt get charged for the etest lol
Ed
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And so it starts....
I was actually hoping to get the engine out today, but I had the kids so I just took my time and did what I could. Some pics:
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0098.jpg)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0101.jpg)
Ed
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Looking good Ed. I've only ever had one e-test done and I'm pretty sure that it is strictly visual and is suppose to be done at idle. Someone who has lived down here will probably chime in with the correct answer though. It's a good thing you didn't have the governer modded... actually maybe it would have been better if they sent a rod through the block ;)
It would be a good idea to do a leakdown test on the engine before you tear it all apart. My apoligies for talking you out of it earlier, I was expecting you to just get another engine and drop it in.
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Yea, it would have been great if they sent a rod through the block since it costs 4300 for a reman long block from vw or better yet, 20 grand for a new long block from bramgate vw lol.
I want to replace the IM shaft bearings so I might as well throw some rings and bearings in her while im at it. Im not going to screw around here lol, im rebuilding the head as well. Im not sure if im going to tackle the whole job myself. I might get it put back together and tow it to you guys to re time the pump. I was looking at the pump today and it breaks my heart to pull it of lol, but its gotta be done.
I thought id be getting alot of heat from my fiance, but she seems to be more excited about helping me rebuild the engine than I am. Im hoping to have the car back on the road for Feb. I have my roommates backup car to drive in the mean time.
I still have to get my hands on a bentley manual. The guy who sold me the car only gave me the bentley body book and a haynes manual.
Ed
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What turbo did it come with?
I have a decent 1.9TD from a 95 golf that would fit right in there...
I`m also looking to rebuild my otehr 1.9TD.
Where to get the parts and what machine shop in the area has done many AAZ s before is what I`m looking for.
Anyone from teh site know?
Maybe we can get together and order bulk and get a discount on parts..
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What turbo did it come with?
I have a decent 1.9TD from a 95 golf that would fit right in there...
I`m also looking to rebuild my otehr 1.9TD.
Where to get the parts and what machine shop in the area has done many AAZ s before is what I`m looking for.
Anyone from teh site know?
Maybe we can get together and order bulk and get a discount on parts..
The car came with a Garrett T2
I emailed Giles at performancediesel.ca for some prices on rebuild parts, Im not sure of any machine shops in the area that has done aaz engines, Im hoping I can get away with honing of the cylinders myself and doing a ring and bearing job. Guess ill find out once I open the engine up and measure the bores.
Ed
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MoparEd you can get a good price on Bentley manual through Amazon.
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So I managed to get the engine out of the car and apart last night. Im sadly disapointed in the condition of the tops of the pistons, It looks like I may be replacing them :( wonder if I can run tdi pistons and head with my aaz fuel pump???????? The bearings however, looked great. Here are some progress pics:
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0113.jpg)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0114.jpg)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0122.jpg)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0124.jpg)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0127.jpg)
All 4 pistons look the same :(
Ed
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wonder if I can run tdi pistons and head with my aaz fuel pump?
Maybe, I doubt it would run well or have very good power.
I have 3 standard size AAZ pistons you can have with rods. I think they have light valve kisses, nothing like yours. They are at the shop
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I'd be inclined to clean the carbon etc off the top of your pistons and see how bad they really are... these have been running fine many tens of thousands of kms:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/piston_with-imprint.jpg)
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I'd be inclined to clean the carbon etc off the top of your pistons and see how bad they really are... these have been running fine many tens of thousands of kms:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/piston_with-imprint.jpg)
My god Vince,
What did you use to clean those pistons with? lol
Ive been googling like crazy to find what people are using to get carbon off their parts. I have a piston soaking in some simple green right now
Ed
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Very fine wire brush on a bench grinder... very gentle pressure.... stayed a long way away from the ring lands.
Breaks some rules I've read, but so does running pistons with holes in the coating. ;D
After I cleaned 'em up as per the picture I took a very fine file and radiused the edges of the divot caused by the valve... this removed the metal that had been "squished" up *and* got rid of any sharp edges that might cause hot spots. So far so good.
'Course if you can get some better ones from Tyler why take a chance... but it *can* be done. ;)
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Thought id update my progress so far lol.
Ive been very busy with school and haven't actually been able to do much with my engine, but some progress has been made... I took the disassembled engine to a machine shop to get some work done. The block has been hot tanked and intermediate shaft bearings replaced, I have to get it bored because it was out of spec, so I purchased some prothe pistons (and a different set of rings). I also had the shop re-size my rods, polish the crank and decided to let them rebuild the head completely. all in all, with the price of the pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, machine work, rebuilding of the head, I'm just over $1000.
I will still have to assemble the engine, and still need some parts like head bolts, main bolts, pressure plate bolts, rod bolts, water pump, clutched alt pulley, starter and clutch slave cyl and of course a bentley manual and crank bolt. It should be a good runner when im done , but its hard to stay motivated since im married to the car now. I learned a good lesson tho, The next time I purchase a diesel vw, ill do a hell of alot more research. (I found this site after I purchased the car)
I try to not think about how much I have invested into it so far, especially when I see 2000 and newer diesel vws selling for less than what I have invested so far. and once I have the car running, I get to repair the other little issues with it (like windows going down by themselves, cruise control quitting after 5 minutes of use, etc...)
On a lighter note, The pistons came in today, and I will be delivering them to the machine shop on Monday, so the block can be bored to match :) cant wait to get this thing togather. Im deathly afraid to time the thing tho, It seems that I have a different injection pump than the ones I see on rebuild threads. I really have to invest in a bentley dvd or book.
Cost so far:
Car: $1850
Pump: $465
Tdi Crank Mod $500
Pump tested on stand and Installed $150
Machine Shop work , with Parts $800 (so far)
Pistons $235
Grand total: $4000 so far
Heart Breaking :(
Ed
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Im deathly afraid to time the thing tho, It seems that I have a different injection pump than the ones I see on rebuild threads.
No worries... post a few pictures when you get to that stage and we'll lend a hand.
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Good to see you making progress Ed.
You have nothing to fear when doing timing. Just make sure that you properly tighten all the bolts/nuts and that you turn the engine over by hand before you even so much as think about cranking it with the starter.
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how's progress coming? Old lady put her foot down? :)
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how's progress coming? Old lady put her foot down? :)
Hahahaha, My fiance is more anxious to start building this engine than I am :)
Im still waiting for the machine shop to do their thing. It was suppose to be done last week, but when I called on Monday, Garry said it was going slowly but getting done. Im hoping the machine work will be done soon so I can get to building this thing. Im sick of staring at the car in the driveway and all the parts on the garage floor. I will be posting pics every step of the way so you guys can chime in and let me know how im doing :)
Ed
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Ed,
Don't get discouraged.
I have a MKII and have more than that in my engine rebuild. I am thrilled with the choice of sticking with the old simple iron.
I think all the electronics on the new ones would give me a bigger headache than the stuff I have left to do.
Besides if you are going to drive it for years to come, like I am, you will enjoy that you did it right now.
VelocityConservation
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I'm going to be rebuilding the TD engine in my B3 as well.
What is this TDI Crank Mod? Do I need to use different rotating internals? What other swaps should I do while I'm at it?
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yo vince, since thie pic is up I wonder if you could possibly run pistons like that on a lathe? I know it's a bit off topic, but could be a cheap alternative to running out and getting a new set, and help those doing rebuilds like this.
kevin
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Hi Vince
glad to hear that you're proceeding very well with the engine rebuild. it was such a shame after all the work we did on your car and it was still running smokey when it left my shop. how many valves were bent? let me know if you want to order any parts. you won't know about the head gasket until you do the piston top protrusion from the block. measure all 4 and take the largest one and compare that with bentley for 1,2 or 3 notch gasket. will be good see it running well in a very short time eh?
Giles
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Hi Vince
glad to hear that you're proceeding very well with the engine rebuild. it was such a shame after all the work we did on your car and it was still running smokey when it left my shop. how many valves were bent? let me know if you want to order any parts. you won't know about the head gasket until you do the piston top protrusion from the block. measure all 4 and take the largest one and compare that with bentley for 1,2 or 3 notch gasket. will be good see it running well in a very short time eh?
Giles
I got a call from the machine shop today. The block is hot tanked, bored and honed to match the pistons, New intermediate shaft bearings installed, Rods will be re-sized tomorrow, And ALL the valves were out of spec or bent, so I had them order all new valves and guides. On a positive note, the crank is in excellent shape and he loves those prothe pistons. The rings that came with the pistons will be replaced with quality ones tho. Should be ready for pickup on Thursday.
I will need a new starer, clutch slave cylinder(because when I took the old one off the transmission, the rod just fell off???) and a water pump. I think I may replace the water hoses on the engine, as I will be replacing ever bearing and seal in that motor, its just as well to do it all.
The number on the starter is the one for a vr6.... not sure why. maybe one of the 17 previous owners just picked it up at the wreckers lol
Ed
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I will be picking up my engine parts this coming Tuesday. I purchased an engine stand and have it waiting for the engine :) I cant wait to start putting this thing back together. Pics will follow :D
Cheers
Ed
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I have a parts diesel jetta I`m guessing will have many of the parts you need... I have 3 starters that all work well.
You re welcome to one of them for free if you come pick it up.
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i honed my cylinders by hand twice with a ball hone the first time - didnt work so well, and a stone hone the second time - worked great.
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The Parts are in!!!! Well most of them anyway :)
I ordered a bottom gasket set, Rod, Main, Head, Flywheel and pressure Plate bolts and crank pulley bolt. Once those parts come in, I can start reassembling the engine :D I will post pics as I make progress.
Ed
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0242.jpg)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0243.jpg)
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Look at this and tell me please if its ok to proceed...... The holes are not lined up properly :( This is the Intermediate Shaft Bearings.
Can they be removed and used again or do I have to buy another set?
The IM shaft was installed when I took delivery, I removed it to inspect the bearing placement. Should have done it at the shop, but the block was wrapped in plastic.
Ed
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0248.jpg)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MoparEd/AAZ%20Rebuild/IMG_0249.jpg)
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I think you should show the picture to the shop and hit em up for a guilt trip discount on your next purchase.