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General Information => General => Topic started by: ffgb on December 15, 2009, 02:31:13 pm

Title: Loosing oil
Post by: ffgb on December 15, 2009, 02:31:13 pm
My 84 rabbit 1.6na is loosing oil somewhere.  It is not leaking any oil because there isn't a puddle in my driveway so I know that it is burning it somehow.  My motor doesn't smoke at idle.  It smokes, but not bad at all, only when accelerating.  While cruising, I don't see any smoke, only when I step on the accelerator.  When I start it up, there is no smoke at all, cold or hot.  I have been putting in about 1 quart of oil a week.  I just put in some Marvel Mystery Oil with rotella synthetic 5w-40 in hopes of cleaning the ring packs to loosen them up if that is the problem.  I don't know if it is the piston rings or something in the valvetrain that is making me loose so much oil!  Also, I don't know exactly how many miles are on the motor, the odometer is stuck at 57,000 miles.  Please Help!!!
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: dennis on December 15, 2009, 02:44:10 pm
Look at the air filter. If oily its blow-by. That would be a ring issue. 5W40 in my opinion is a bit thin for an old school diesel also.  You didn't say how many miles in a week either.
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: ffgb on December 15, 2009, 04:39:08 pm
The air filter isn't oily and about 150-175 miles a week.
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: theman53 on December 15, 2009, 05:14:10 pm
If you have done the valvecover gasket lately and it is a hydro head and you didn't put the baffle in it will use oil like that. If the valves are going south in either head it will do that too.
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: ffgb on December 15, 2009, 05:20:44 pm
I haven't taken the valve cover out yet.  I don't know much about the car because I bought it used.  When I open the oil cap, there is a piece of plastic there.  I cannot see the cam like in my 1.7 gasser motor.  So, if you cannot see the cam in a diesel thru the oil cap opening, does this mean that I have a baffle or not.  If I don't, where do I get on cheap?  Thanks
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: burn_your_money on December 15, 2009, 05:37:49 pm
If you can't see the cam then you have the baffle
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: 8v-of-fury on December 15, 2009, 06:47:16 pm
where about are you located?

a 5w40 synthetic is super thin oil.. sure it will clean up things.. but it will also clean out whatever is holding the oil in  :P

IF you are in a warm climate (somewhere that doesn't see anywhere near freezing temps) then I suggest switching back to a conventional oil, with a weight of 15w40. It is that much thicker to not get by things, and it may solve a lot of problems.

When I say solve problems, its obviously not gonna fix the fact that you may need a rebuild.. but its a big band aid if you ain't got the cash right now.
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: ffgb on December 15, 2009, 07:08:35 pm
I am here in Northern California.  I'll start putting in 15W-40.  About how much is a rebuild?  Just a Re-ring? Head rebuilt?  Etc...???
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: 8v-of-fury on December 15, 2009, 07:12:51 pm
well with unknown miles.. it is hard to tell.. it could need to be bored over.. and new pistons fit.. not cheap. probably just a lower end rebuild would be bare minimum. but if thicker oil suffices... your good to go :)

with these old engines.. a lot of things have gotten sludge on them.. and the original seals gone away.. so the sludge is the only thing holding them together lol! Thin synthetic oil is awesome stuff, but not if its gonna be eaten by the engine lol.

well how cold does it get there? you may even try a thicker oil.. maybe a 15w50? (is there a higher weight oil?)
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: rabbitman on December 15, 2009, 07:49:32 pm
well how cold does it get there? you may even try a thicker oil.. maybe a 15w50? (is there a higher weight oil?)

I know there's 20w50, haven't heard of 15w50 :P
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: 8v-of-fury on December 15, 2009, 07:50:20 pm
20w50!? wow what temps is this oil good for? any idea?
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: theman53 on December 15, 2009, 07:52:10 pm
penzoil used to make a 25w-50 and it still had zinc in it for older engines. It was all the old engine builder wanted us to run in the circle track car.
8v...warm ones:D
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: 8v-of-fury on December 15, 2009, 07:53:09 pm
well obviously warm ones Lucas! lol warm enough for northern Cali?
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: maxfax on December 15, 2009, 07:55:15 pm
Somewhere in my travels I've seen straight 60.. It was marketed as a "racing" oil...   Maybe for racing without bearings or something....
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: Possum79 on December 15, 2009, 08:25:35 pm
Where at in northern California? I just ask cuz I'm in the central valley here and looking for other vw diesel heads. If you were close enough you could borrow some of my vw tools as long as you give them back of course.
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: ffgb on December 15, 2009, 08:51:21 pm
Bay Area.  If I do a re-ring, who here has done it while the block was in the car?  Also with a re-ring, do you change all the bearings out too?
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: maxfax on December 15, 2009, 08:54:17 pm
Re-ring with the block in the car is no problem..   The head and oil pan are somehwta simple to get outta there..   As far as your bearings you'll have to make that call when you get things apart..  IF your oil pressure is good now, chances are they are alright..  But if you get it apart and see problems, there is no better time to do it...
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: ffgb on December 15, 2009, 09:29:30 pm
When honing the cylinders, are there a lot of shavings or not really?  And would it be best to just replace the bearings on the old crankshaft without having the journals polished or would I run into problems later?  It would seem easy to re-ring the motor while in the car, there seems to be a lot of room, did anyone of you guys run into a problems that have done this procedure this way.  Further, where did you get the re-ring kit from, any brand better than the other?
Title: Loosing oil
Post by: expanty09 on December 15, 2009, 10:41:48 pm
I am a long time reader of Bobs site  My g/f thinks im super dork for reading about motor oil haha

Lucas also =s bad IMO, I know some of you love it like hell but I dont its no big deal
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: 8v-of-fury on December 16, 2009, 05:20:51 pm
I am a long time reader of Bobs site  My g/f thinks im super dork for reading about motor oil haha

Lucas also =s bad IMO, I know some of you love it like hell but I dont its no big deal

Uh ok? lol

Lucas Stabilizer is a godsend. It has worked marvels in my oil sipping 1.7.. slowed oil consumption to near nothing
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: maxfax on December 16, 2009, 06:51:03 pm
When honing the cylinders, are there a lot of shavings or not really?  And would it be best to just replace the bearings on the old crankshaft without having the journals polished or would I run into problems later?  It would seem easy to re-ring the motor while in the car, there seems to be a lot of room, did anyone of you guys run into a problems that have done this procedure this way.  Further, where did you get the re-ring kit from, any brand better than the other?


There will be shavings from honing, mostly just a fine dist of metal and stone..   Keeping the hone wet will help..  I usually spray WD40 (or similar) a few times down in the cylinder while I am honing..   Not only foes this give you a better finish, it helps keep the gringds from being dust, but rather sort of a slurry..   Since you'll have the oil pan off cleanup is easy..  Use kerosene, brake cleaner, etc and wash everything down..  I usually even go to the extent of wiping everything ( the crank journel and cylinder) down with a clean rag too..  Make sure you use a hone that has the straight stones on it..  The ball hones will work, but not so great..

AS far as installing new bearing on a used crank, that is fine as long as the journels are good..  Scoring, scratches, and pits are signs that you need machining..  The crank journel being worn down is another reason for machining..  These VW cranks are pretty robust, so short of it being run without oil, or with sand in the oil, or for 2 million miles it's probably going to be fine..  Once again, if you have no oil pressure issues now you should be okay....  Inspect all the journels closely when you get it apart, they should be smooth and shiney..  Measring can be done with a micrometer on the rod journels, but is difficult with the crank in teh car for the mains..  Plastigauge will work for this if something is questionable.. ..Cleanliness is the biggest factor!!
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: dennis on December 17, 2009, 11:14:42 am
20w50!? wow what temps is this oil good for? any idea?
Per AllData 1981-89
68-104 degrees F.   SAE 40
32-86                    SAE 30
14-86                    20W50 20W40
14-50                    20w20
5- 86                     15w40 15w50
-4 to 50                10w30 10w40 (No 10w40 for 1986 models)
-4 to 23                10W
-22 to 14               5W20 5W30

I use some Castrol 20W50
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: ffgb on December 24, 2009, 04:24:07 pm
Well, I have so much blowby that there is a lot of pressure and smoke coming out of the oil cap hole, also the exhaust smoke changes color with the oil cap off.  I guess I am going to try and re-ring my motor with it still in the car.  Kinda nervous because I am afraid that the cylinder walls might be too damaged to or something.  I am just hoping to hone the cylinder walls and put new rings on the pistons and hopefully get my compression back to normal and stop the oil consumption.  Where should I get the bearings and rings from, and what brand do you guys use and had good luck with?  Also, do you put oil on the new rings or do you install them dry to get a better seal.
Thanks
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: maxfax on December 24, 2009, 07:38:52 pm
Short of a catastrophic failure the cylinders actually hold up well in these buggers...   I re-ringed an engine with 470 some thousand miles..   THe cylinders measured out to no more than .003" wear...  Good rings can do wonders..

I as well as other have used Grant rings with good results, band for the buck I'm sold on these..   Goetze are a littler higher quality ring, but they are a bit more costly too...  I've head many positive remarks about Total Seal rings, but they are probably a bit of overkill for an N/A engine...   I personally try to avoid Top-Line rings..  I've had horrible results with those things...  Make sure you have a good cross hatch from honing and Install everything wet (oiled).. 

AS far as vendors, I'm sure others can chime in better on this than I, but we do have Myke_W who supports this form..  Burn_Your_Money and Giles up at Performance Diesel also can hook you up..
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: 8v-of-fury on December 24, 2009, 11:10:00 pm
..Cleanliness is the biggest factor!!
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm124/maxfax3/VW/DSCF1943.jpg)

Looks squeakily clean to me lol  ;)

Merry Christmas everyone
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: maxfax on December 25, 2009, 01:13:43 am
Do as I say, not as I do..  And you've seen some of the things I have done...   ;D

That was a PITA to clean up before putting the head back on..   Stuffing rags down the cylinders was pretty much futile...
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: ffgb on December 25, 2009, 03:38:34 pm
Maxfax, did you re-hone with the block still in the vehicle?  If so, did you remove the crankshaft?  If you did, and replaced the main bearings, how did you set the thrust bearing?  How hard was it to remove then install the crankshaft while on your back?
Thank You, I really appreciate it!
Title: Re: Loosing oil
Post by: maxfax on December 26, 2009, 04:16:13 am
That particular pic is a whole other abortion..   I was welding a cracked block that shouldn't be welded...

But I have honed the cylinders with the engine still in the car.. Leave the main caps on, and turn the crank so that the journel for the particular cylinder you are honing is the whole way down..  When done honing all the cylinders  spray everything down thoroughly with brake cleaner, carb cleaner or something of that sort.. 

You can't remove that crank with the engine in the vehicle unless you remove the transmission..  And by the time you go to that trouble you may as well remove the engine and make working on it easier...  To replace main bearings with out removing the engine I usually loosen all the main caps so that the crank drops a bit..  Then using a pick or something work the old bearing out, clean with carb cleaner,  and slide the new one back in..  Then squirt some oil on the new bearing in the cap and put it on loosely.. I usually try to wipe the journels with a clean rag before assembly..  Preferably a rag that doesn't leave fuzzies or lint.. Repeat until you get them all done then snug the caps up flush and torque them..  Make sure you spin the crank by hand after torquing each one..  It should spin rather easily, if not you need to remove the offending cap and start investigating...  AS far as the thrust bearing I just leave them alone if the end play was okay to begin with..  If it wasn't I end up pulling the engine and crank to investigate...