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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: aidan on November 23, 2009, 01:47:47 pm
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Wondering if anyone has found a fully bolt on mtdi pump yet?
The engine only needs to make max about 120ftlb, maybe 80-90bhp so less torque than stock and about stock power.
I.e either the original tdi or matching sprockets goes straight on and lines up, fits the tdi mounting bracket etc.
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with zero mods? Not likely to happen. I imagine if such a hting existed it would be common knowledge by now. What about the LT pumps? Do they bolt straight up? From what i have heard, they seem to run ok with no mods, not sure about mounting bracket though.
my landy unit needed minimal work, and would probably have enough power for you out of the box?.
Why you ask?
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Well looking for one that people might have found but was only say 10mm or no LDA etc.
Interested for a mk2 golf auto, that gearbox only ever had about 115bhp/120lbft (with the 8v gti engine) maximum through it and I don't fancy finding its limits above that.
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The Land rover pumps go in with little fuss, having a machinest open up the bore on your pump bracket isn't too big a deal. LR 300 is 11mm head so lots of power potential & they even come with a good LDA pin. Swap out your existing delivery valves to line up the injector lines & you are done!
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the standard 1Z pump bracket? Which sprocket do you use?
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the standard 1Z pump bracket? Which sprocket do you use?
ALH sprocket. Prothe has them cheeeep.
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Agree with blackdogvan, I only had to open up hole in bracket (and the thin cover plate too) and make another bracket for the rear. Simple stuff. I used the tdi pulley, went straight on, and lines up perfect. It was bolt on enough for me, and I hadn't ever messed with stuff like this before.
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Ok this sounds the best idea, this is what ryanp had mentioned before also. I have an Iveco 11mm pump in the garage, but its NA, and no sprocket, may see what I can do with that too. LR pumps are plentiful here as are VW tdis. Thanks all
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Are there no M-tdi pumps from generator motors or motors used in boats etc?
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Possibly, but must be very rare, and then probably pricey.
TDI land rovers are common though, as are mk4 golf tdi's (for the sprocket)
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Okay, here in the States. What year LR am I looking for? And how much would I expect to pay for a used pump?
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Unfortunately LR didn't sell diesels over here so you're best bet is uk ebay or Ryanp. 4Bt pump is another option but i believe they need some tweaking for dynamic advance & on the gov. Ping Karl at westyventures (i know you're lurking here Karl!), he has brand new 12mm cummins pumps that bolt right in. My personal experience was a ebay.uk purchase from a LR breaker. He had 2 for 100lbs each so i took both, one was crap & he refunded my money. I shipped the good one & a bagged out AAZ pump for any needed bits to Giles & expect to have the whole thing installed in the new year on my AAZ/1Z, aaz cam, gt2056v, vr6 clutch, pp520, LR 300 franken motor... Maybe i should start a build thread. You can see the longer LR delivery valve issue in the 2nd shot, aaz valves solved that & the rear aaz mounting bracket bolted right up too, that's the LR one in these shots. Friend with vw shop is nice too...
(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/557862.jpg)
(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/557863.jpg)
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What about a Peugeot 505 pump?
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We've had good luck with these.
http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_132&products_id=109 (http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_132&products_id=109)
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We've had good luck with these.
http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_132&products_id=109 (http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_132&products_id=109)
I think I just found the answer to my wanting to put a ALH in my bus. ;D
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We've had good luck with these.
http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_132&products_id=109 (http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_132&products_id=109)
I think I just found the answer to my wanting to put a ALH in my bus. ;D
Nothing against those LT pumps or the vendor but Karl's pumps are cheaper, are tested on and i believe setup for our engines and come with the correct pulley setup for your engine (1Z/AHU or ALH). For that snack bracket cost wise its where i'd be spending my money.
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Link? ???
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www.westyventures.com/parts.html (http://www.westyventures.com/parts.html)
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Sweet. Thanks. 8) Now I wonder if my bus' transmission will hate me from all the torque. :o Still would have to re-gear it... or maybe a trans from a diesel Vanagon would fit if I changed the nose cone and bell housing. ??? I do know that they are different from the air cooled bus ones.
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The LT 2.8 pumps work pretty well, but the biggest issue is the 'low-smoke' throttle/governor setup - it holds back fueling until rpms and boost come up. I'm running one of those on my 'test rig' and another one a customer's van. In his, I had to lighten the tiny spring in the lever assy. to get it to respond. You 'could' replace the lever assy. with the standard type and get around the issue. This pump does have a nice advance setup. The 4BT pumps I build don't have the low-smoke governor but take me a little more work to dial in timing. I have about 25 new 4BT pumps to build, plus five of another non-aneroid type I've started putting together that really work super in 10mm form.
Tranny: the diesel van tranny has no advantage, the newer trannies are better but all need taller 3rd and 4th for the TDI.
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But aren't the diesel Vanagon transmissions already geared lower than the gas ones? So then why would I need to swap gears?
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But aren't the diesel Vanagon transmissions already geared lower than the gas ones? So then why would I need to swap gears?
They are geared much lower - you'll need much higher or 'taller' gearing than the gasser for a TDI. I normally gear customer TDI vans 10-20% taller than the gasser gearing, depending on the diameter of the tires to be used.
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But aren't the diesel Vanagon transmissions already geared taller than the gas ones making them a perfect match to the TDI?
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But aren't the diesel Vanagon transmissions already geared taller than the gas ones making them a perfect match to the TDI?
I think you have it backwards, lower gearing in this case means higher rpm. We van diesel folk with some hp need higher/taller gearing to drop the rpm to a better cruising range.
The original diesel vans sold in canada & the US was a 1.6 natural, something like 50hp.... they needed the low gearing to climb a railway grade! (1%)
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:D Haha! Come on, you know what I meant. :P If that is the case, perhaps I'll find someone locally who can rebuild my transmission with the taller 3rd and 4th to work with the TDI. Anyone know what set of gears I should get and from where?
Hey Vince, Do you know how to rebuild transmissions? ;)
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The LT 2.8 pumps work pretty well, but the biggest issue is the 'low-smoke' throttle/governor setup - it holds back fueling until rpms and boost come up. I'm running one of those on my 'test rig' and another one a customer's van. In his, I had to lighten the tiny spring in the lever assy. to get it to respond. You 'could' replace the lever assy. with the standard type and get around the issue. This pump does have a nice advance setup. The 4BT pumps I build don't have the low-smoke governor but take me a little more work to dial in timing. I have about 25 new 4BT pumps to build, plus five of another non-aneroid type I've started putting together that really work super in 10mm form.
Tranny: the diesel van tranny has no advantage, the newer trannies are better but all need taller 3rd and 4th for the TDI.
Care to share a bit on these pumps Karl? Not the internal setup & part numbers, just a little more detail on their makeup & operation?? No Boost fueling or a differnt style of boost fueling??
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Care to share a bit on these pumps Karl? Not the internal setup & part numbers, just a little more detail on their makeup & operation?? No Boost fueling or a differnt style of boost fueling??
These are NA pumps, German Bosch, came on some sort of diesel generator as they had a really low setting on the throttle arm and 8mm plunger. However, they do have a 20mm shaft! The aneroid on a TD pump doesn't supply more fuel, more accurately it is a fuel limiter. As boost pressure rises, the aneroid acts to allow more throttle movement internally. These pumps work really well because there is basically no limitation. The stock turbo spools so quickly that a limiter on the fueling is not needed. I use a TDI camplate, timing bits, and pump head, and throttle shaft/lever/spring for the LT pump. At first I doubted it would work well, but a customer asked me to test it on his van, which has a basically stock AHU but with PP520 nozzles. The previous pump was one of the Ohio-built 1.6NA-TDI hybrid pumps. This one has tons of power over that one and is very quiet. Hope I can nail it like that on the next five of the same pump that I bought.
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Nothing against those LT pumps or the vendor but Karl's pumps are cheaper, are tested on and i believe setup for our engines and come with the correct pulley setup for your engine (1Z/AHU or ALH). For that snack bracket cost wise its where i'd be spending my money.
That's not really a fair comparison, the LT pumps have the larger 12mm pump head capable of supporting much larger nozzles than the smaller 10mm and 11mm pump heads. New the Bosch 12mm pump heads are half the cost of the entire pump!
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That's not really a fair comparison, the LT pumps have the larger 12mm pump head capable of supporting much larger nozzles than the smaller 10mm and 11mm pump heads. New the Bosch 12mm pump heads are half the cost of the entire pump!
My pumps are the same price regardless of 10-11-12mm. If you'd like to buy new, un-modified German 12mm pumps (not the LT, but 4BT) I'll sell you a few at 600.
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Nothing against those LT pumps or the vendor but Karl's pumps are cheaper, are tested on and i believe setup for our engines and come with the correct pulley setup for your engine (1Z/AHU or ALH). For that snack bracket cost wise its where i'd be spending my money.
That's not really a fair comparison, the LT pumps have the larger 12mm pump head capable of supporting much larger nozzles than the smaller 10mm and 11mm pump heads. New the Bosch 12mm pump heads are half the cost of the entire pump!
How the heck isn't that a fair comparison??
I don't want to come across as having a man crush on Karl or his pumps but they have the same 12mm head, are cheaper, have been mounted on a 1.9 & adjusted for a 1.9, come with the correct sprocket and bolt right in.
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If Karls pumps do the deed for less where is the issue?
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The only issue right now is I was waiting for months for Bosch to supply parts I needed to modify these and in the end they finally told me these parts are NLA - so I am now having the parts made. I have a backlog of about a dozen pumps waiting...plus just bought a dyno and discovered I need a bigger shop to install it in. Little stuff like that. ;)
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I have this same fault on an alhambra.
new pump and tensioner has not cured it.
what else is there to try?
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How the heck isn't that a fair comparison??
I don't want to come across as having a man crush on Karl or his pumps but they have the same 12mm head, are cheaper, have been mounted on a 1.9 & adjusted for a 1.9, come with the correct sprocket and bolt right in.
You don't need to confess your love, the only reference I found to Karl's pump heads were 10mm and 11mm so I stand corrected.
The LT pumps are 100 percent bolt in, and are perfectly set up for the 1.9. Dozens of installations have proven that as well as the units we have installed in customer conversions.
Your right there are cheaper alternatives out there, and for those who solely shop price then you've got your match, however I can deliver a pump overnight, and it's 100 percent new using original Bosch parts (not aftermarket) and warrantied by Bosch.
So to avoid an Off Topic debate on who's pumps pump better, I suggest we leave it at this.
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The LT pumps are 100 percent bolt in, and are perfectly set up for the 1.9. Dozens of installations have proven that as well as the units we have installed in customer conversions.
Your right there are cheaper alternatives out there, and for those who solely shop price then you've got your match, however I can deliver a pump overnight, and it's 100 percent new using original Bosch parts (not aftermarket) and warrantied by Bosch.
Please re-read my post #19. The LT pumps, although a direct bolt-in, do have low fuel delivery issues in lower rpms. This can be corrected with a spring change in the ['low-smoke'] throttle/governor lever, and quite a bit of low-rpm power can be gained.
I should point out that my pumps are 100% Bosch, new, German, and are warrantied by me. The LT does have a more refined advance piston design and longer snout, beyond that the two are not much different.
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The only issue right now is I was waiting for months for Bosch to supply parts I needed to modify these and in the end they finally told me these parts are NLA - so I am now having the parts made. I have a backlog of about a dozen pumps waiting...plus just bought a dyno and discovered I need a bigger shop to install it in. Little stuff like that. ;)
have you tried these for your parts http://www.eurodiesel.com (http://www.eurodiesel.com)[/url]
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Thanks, will check with these folks. Hopefully they have what I need!
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The only issue right now is I was waiting for months for Bosch to supply parts I needed to modify these and in the end they finally told me these parts are NLA - so I am now having the parts made. I have a backlog of about a dozen pumps waiting...plus just bought a dyno and discovered I need a bigger shop to install it in. Little stuff like that. ;)
have you tried these for your parts http://www.eurodiesel.com (http://www.eurodiesel.com)[/url]
Anytime I've seen pictures of Chinese nozzles and pump heads they have been in the exact same plastic packaging. I'm just saying is all...
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if you'r interest l build tdi-m pumps
whith 10,11 or12mm head bosch
i'm live in france
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The only issue right now is I was waiting for months for Bosch to supply parts I needed to modify these and in the end they finally told me these parts are NLA - so I am now having the parts made. I have a backlog of about a dozen pumps waiting...plus just bought a dyno and discovered I need a bigger shop to install it in. Little stuff like that. ;)
have you tried these for your parts http://www.eurodiesel.com (http://www.eurodiesel.com)[/url]
Anytime I've seen pictures of Chinese nozzles and pump heads they have been in the exact same plastic packaging. I'm just saying is all...
Don't know the specifics of this particular case, but in China, I have also seen millions of dollars of neraly perfect 1930's US currency (indistinguishable to anyone but an experty) - all pretty much identical to the real thing. I have also seen many items that are "semi-legitimate" as someone IN the industry internationally just has a clone of their own or a competitor's stuff built there. One thing few of us in the West appreciate about China is that forgery of ANYTHING is at a very high state of art and SOMETIMES reasonable level science & technology, and has been for a very, very long time.
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How the heck isn't that a fair comparison??
I don't want to come across as having a man crush on Karl or his pumps but they have the same 12mm head, are cheaper, have been mounted on a 1.9 & adjusted for a 1.9, come with the correct sprocket and bolt right in.
You don't need to confess your love, the only reference I found to Karl's pump heads were 10mm and 11mm so I stand corrected.
The LT pumps are 100 percent bolt in, and are perfectly set up for the 1.9. Dozens of installations have proven that as well as the units we have installed in customer conversions.
Your right there are cheaper alternatives out there, and for those who solely shop price then you've got your match, however I can deliver a pump overnight, and it's 100 percent new using original Bosch parts (not aftermarket) and warrantied by Bosch.
So to avoid an Off Topic debate on who's pumps pump better, I suggest we leave it at this.
Scott:
When you say 'set up" for 1.9, exactly what do you mean. Is the timing optimized, delivery curves, etc.? Obviously, at 12mm head, volume is going to be more than adequate for a lot of power on ANY 12mm pump, but I would be interested in a one-stop deal where I don't have to tear into it or send it to someone to get it dialed in to the driveability range (including max RPM).
Pat
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I should point out that my pumps are 100% Bosch
In an earlier post you had mentioned having parts parts made. How can this statement above be true then.
For those who shop solely on price.
http://www.dieselvw.com/RebuiltMTDIPump.htm (http://www.dieselvw.com/RebuiltMTDIPump.htm)
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I should point out that my pumps are 100% Bosch
In an earlier post you had mentioned having parts parts made. How can this statement above be true then.
For those who shop solely on price.
http://www.dieselvw.com/RebuiltMTDIPump.htm (http://www.dieselvw.com/RebuiltMTDIPump.htm)
OK, so 99% ::)
What I meant is that there are no Chinese parts in my pumps - the two parts I need to have made, the timing spring and cover, will be made locally at a major spring manufacturer and machine shop, respectively.
Of course a Prothe pump is cheaper, using Chinese parts and not a 20mm shaft base.
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I should point out that my pumps are 100% Bosch
In an earlier post you had mentioned having parts parts made. How can this statement above be true then.
For those who shop solely on price.
http://www.dieselvw.com/RebuiltMTDIPump.htm (http://www.dieselvw.com/RebuiltMTDIPump.htm)
OK, so 99% ::)
What I meant is that there are no Chinese parts in my pumps - the two parts I need to have made, the timing spring and cover, will be made locally at a major spring manufacturer and machine shop, respectively.
Of course a Prothe pump is cheaper, using Chinese parts and not a 20mm shaft base.
Karl,
I have both covers and springs made right here in the US by ME!! I think I'll send you a couple to try out
;) let me know if you would like to take a look at them! :)
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I have both covers and springs made right here in the US by ME!! I think I'll send you a couple to try out
;) let me know if you would like to take a look at them! :)
Really? ;D OK, I had no idea you were making these, so sure, I'd like to try them out!
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That's what this forum is all about man! Making it happen! ;)
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The 12mm LT pump is a direct bolt on install. It has the proper timing curves, camplate, ect; the LT's are larger displacement 4 cylinder engines. and I have not noticed any low end fueling problems.
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The LT pump does have a low smoke governor. You can read all about it in the Bosch yellow jacket book to understand how it pulls back fueling to limit smoke at lower rpms. I have modified several to supply more aggressive fueling below 2000 rpm (on the smaller TDIs), and it does make a difference. Unless you have spent as much time setting these up on a variety of different setups as I have, then we have nothing further to discuss.
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So, with governor modded LT pump. Can I expect same horsepower than 12mm electric pump?
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in the tdi-m the governor it's not the only single point the came plate the intal pression the lda,the dynamic advance...
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how about this?
http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?products_id=109 (http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?products_id=109)
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1500 bucks is prolly more than giles would charge to build an MTDI.. kinda defeating the purpose. it would be counter productive to buy that pump, rather than have giles build you one FOR YOUR ENGINE..
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Giles price is: for a normal M-TDI pump is $1400 with your providing 2 pump cores(TDI pump and one AAZ pump for him
to combine the TDI pump with) if you are looking for more power He will need to upgrade the parts inside the pump
to do this it's an extra $700.
Considering those price and the cores + parts u can almost buy 2 brand new mtdi pump from those guys.
I think we need some input about their perform .
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Giles = $2000 for Mtdi. thats Gilesified!!
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At $2000 you got money to burn, and better be putting that pump in to one hell of a car.
Giles said to me in an email that his normal M-TDI ($1400) will be within the numbers of the stock electronic pump. And the torque curve will be there too.
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At $2000 you got money to burn, and better be putting that pump in to one hell of a car.
Giles said to me in an email that his normal M-TDI ($1400) will be within the numbers of the stock electronic pump. And the torque curve will be there too.
but if you dont have an AAZ, and a TDI pump, then its closer to 2 G's
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At $2000 you got money to burn, and better be putting that pump in to one hell of a car.
Giles said to me in an email that his normal M-TDI ($1400) will be within the numbers of the stock electronic pump. And the torque curve will be there too.
but if you dont have an AAZ, and a TDI pump, then its closer to 2 G's
thats correct
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Josh (Powered by Spearco) and i were just talking about M-TDI pumps a few nights ago, and the price of the giles unit was discussed, along with the core charges associated with it..
if you have the cores, the giles pump is the way to go, hands down.
i still think its the way to go even without cores. its a giles pump for christ sake!
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Actually price go up more then $2000 for Giles mtdi pump if you want more then regular mtdi pump in your specific needs for an extra $700 (internal modification) plus dont forget the shipping cost if you are in USA or other then Canada.
So for the special pump for the performance diesel engine AAZ IP and TDI IP cores +$1400+$700+shipping .
Nobody would say anything bad about his pumps but this kind of prices would kill the deal in this kind of economy. Or people would just go to the electronic way.
I still want to hear some feedback about this pump: http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=49_118&products_id=109
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has giles played with a rover pump yet??
ebay uk.. rover pump $200-$300... ship directly to him to work his magic..
but honestly my non modded rover pump with gov mod.. well guess it is somewhat modded.. makes my tdi-m run like big gasser.. with tons more torque.. next spring ill get it to a dyno. screw with the fuel screw then.. but as of right now.. im so very happy with my rover pump.. when/if it eats the bed ill send to giles for fix/mods..
IMO its 100% bolt on with gov mod..
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I still want to hear some feedback about this pump: http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php?cPath=49_118&products_id=109
That is looks to be a VW LT 2.8 TDI pump. See above in discussion. Works great, the low-smoke governor is a bit of a hassle though, even when it's effect is reduced. I like the power of the straight open-cage governor/spring setup.
The seller's info is, as expected, not entirely accurate - the 4BT is most commonly a truck engine, not generator engine. The timing advance system isn't that much different, not enough to make a huge difference, anyway...300 ft/lbs, yes; 300 hp? ::) No way, dude.