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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: rabbitman on November 09, 2009, 08:59:45 pm
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Last winter my starter developed a issue were it would crank for a split second and then disengage, and then spin unloaded, after a few trys it would hold long enough to start.
Thinking the 'clutch' in the drive gear was bad I rebuilt it with a new drive gear, brushes and bushings.
Now if it's 40F or colder out it will spin but not engage for a couple trys, then it'll finally engage and crank just fine.
According to everything I've read and observed by taking my starter apart, the motor can't spin unless the solenoid clicks, there's a little button that the solenoid plunger pushes that gives power to the motor
BUT....when the solenoid clicks it also slams the drivegear out.
So it shouldn't be able to spin unless the gear is out and then it should spin the motor.
I greased the twisted splined shaft when I rebuilt it, after these latest problems I thought the grease was the cause so I took it all apart and cleaned the grease out but it didn't help a bit.
If anyone have any wild guesses then speak up!!haha I'm long out of ideas.....thanks
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Lemme know when you figure it out.. I replaced the starter on mine last fall as it totally took a poop.. It was a USA industies reman (which I've had excellent results with to date). WHen it got bitter cold I had the same issue.. Warmer days it was fine.. Exchanged it for another and the same thing happened... Checked everything stem to stern and then called USA industries.. Although we never did get to the bottom of the issue they tried their darnest to help out.. Even sent them one of the starters to check out, and they couldn;t find a problem.. By this point the weather was warm and I figured I'd deal with it later.. The other morn at 22 def F it was fine, so maybe some wear helped out.. I am sort of suspecting maybe an issue with the grease being too stiff when cold..
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One thing I noticed is that the original bosch drivegear/oneway clutch assembly has part #'s on it, visible without disassembling the starter. The replacement I bought doesn't have the part #'s so I wonder if it's a chinese copy?? and just slips with the added load of a cold engine :-\
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I should have looked closer at the teeth, but I could actually hear mine grinding on engaugement from time to time.. Maybe it was something internal in the clutch.. THe grinding sounded more like ring gear teeth, but who knows.. I think it is possible that the solenoid can move far enough to engauge the motor without the drive being completely engauged into the ring gear.. Been ages since I had one of these apart, but I believe there is a spring between the drive and the arm that moves it..
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I should have looked closer at the teeth, but I could actually hear mine grinding on engaugement from time to time.. Maybe it was something internal in the clutch.. THe grinding sounded more like ring gear teeth, but who knows.. I think it is possible that the solenoid can move far enough to engauge the motor without the drive being completely engauged into the ring gear.. Been ages since I had one of these apart, but I believe there is a spring between the drive and the arm that moves it..
Yeah there is a spring, my theory was that thick grease on the splines would hold the gear back while the spring compressed.
I tested my starter in the cold with it out and it acted normal. I might just take it to the shop that I bought the rebuild stuff from, they're the old school kind of guys that know what they're talking about.
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a few years ago i built a stroker 360 for my '77 powerwagon , to run on natral gas . so the compression was really high , and due to the way the natural gas was fed into the motor , you had to crank the engine 2 or 3 times longer than if it was on gasoline .
anyways , roughly every 18months of strict natural gas use i'd have to replace either the starter , torque converter ( due to wear on the starter gear , or ring gear ) , or both , and when it was about to let go , it would to the exact same thing that rabbitman is going through .......
except that when the starter would disengage from the ring gear , gear teeth would get sheared off of the ring gear and end up a chunks on the bottom of the bellhousing .
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I had one rebuilt last winter and it did the same thing.
I'm starting to think there are a bunch of new drive gears that are weak.
I wonder what brand they used.
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Are the gears weak, or the lube too heavy??? Rabbitman's sounds like it acted the same as mine. Fine in warmer temps, but cooler temps not so good.. If it would kick out while cranking I'd blame the gear, but it seems to be the initial engagement is the problem...
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You need to cleanup the thick grease on the one way clutch splines and lubricate it with dry moly or plain graphite powder, mine did the same - even in rainy conditions, cleaned it up good dusted with graphite and moly - smooth n purrfect...
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You need to cleanup the thick grease on the one way clutch splines and lubricate it with dry moly or plain graphite powder, mine did the same - even in rainy conditions, cleaned it up good dusted with graphite and moly - smooth n purrfect...
I had thick grease on there when I first rebuilt it but then this latest problem developed so I took it apart and cleaned the splines and left it dry, it didn't improve at all. :-[
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when you assembled the starter, did the bendix drive get damaged? Sometimes the shaft gets scarred and it interferes with the movement of the gear that is on the end of the starter.
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when you assembled the starter, did the bendix drive get damaged? Sometimes the shaft gets scarred and it interferes with the movement of the gear that is on the end of the starter.
I slides very smooth. :-\
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Well 'normally' the starter works fine once the engine (hence starter) is warm.
Well today after the engine was all the way up to temp and turned off for 15 minutes max the starter failed and took 2-3 trys before engaging >:(, did that twice today. I'm really hoping to have another starter in there before I have to get another flywheel also.
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check to see that your starter solenoid plastic anchor is not cracked - it would also pay off to check the splines for rough edges or the stupid spring is plain weak.. on denso direct drive starters we need to shim the solenoid for the pinion to actually engage the flywheel and then juice is applied to the motor.. Cant say this for bosch ones..
You can try reworking the spring behind the clutch assy and also check your starter shaft bronze bushing in the tranny.if its jamming the shaft the clutch will not slide fully - the spring will compress and fire the solenoid,
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I put a new tranny bushing in when I rebuilt the starter last winter, not sure what plastic anchor your talking about......but since today didn't go my way I had the opportunity to inspect it a little more.
When I tried leaving work I turned the key to the "start" position and nothing happened >:(, no click, buzz, grind just silence. So I pulled the starter out and thinking the solenoid had died I took it off and hooked it up to 12v to see what would happen, IT WORKED PERFECT AAARRRRGG.
Keep in mind it was dark, 7:30 and 10F and I didn't feel like playing with bunny right then.......
I had a working gasser starter handy so I swapped the solenoids and compared and swapped 'em back over and over. Also compared the splines, I didn't take it apart enough to remove the gear I just slid 'em on the shaft, the gasser one (all original parts) slid slightly easier but the diesel one still slid plenty easy.
The only thing weird I noticed is when I ground the starter housing, hook 12v to the solenoid (key switched connection and high amp input) the starter gear snaps out and starts turning but it doesn't snap completely out at first. It stops it's outward travel about 1/8 inch from the stop ring and then as it spins it makes it the rest of the way out. :o
Does this mean that it's only meshing with the flywheel by a 1/8 inch???? When I try starting it, the starter just freewheels but if I just let it spin it'll eventually try meshing and just grind, I don't do this regular though, usually I hit the key, let up, hit it again and repeat 'til it engages.
I had installed the gasser starter a few weeks ago, it engaged fine but didn't have the power to crank fast enough, so something is different about it and I just can not figure it out.
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thats the way the starter should work, the push from the solenoid lever is just half way to the flywheel to catch the wheel - then the spring acting like a shock absorber to the lever and one way clutch pinion compresses and fires the solenoid - the spinning action of the motor and the sluggishness of the engine keep the starter pinion fully engaged to the flywheel teeth.
I would look at the idiotic spring - and or the lever the solenoid pulls on, it should not be sloppy on the fitment point on the clutch or on the anchor pivot point. (seen it happen on a slushybox BMW starter - PITA it was)
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The spring could be the culprit like Zulfiqar said.
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The spring could be the culprit like Zulfiqar said.
Yeah I've wondered about it, it just seems too stupid though the piece was new last winter :(
Maybe I'll shim the spring..... I hate taking that little c-clip off though it's such a pain, but it has to come off to get the gear off........
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Hiya
a little similar situation was handed to me yesterday for a Daewoo (GM) Nubira starter - same bosch reduction drive like ours, key it to start - whirrrr, no engagement.
Took it apart - pinion slides freely n all, tested the starter on battery.the plastic fork that shoves the pinion had its foot pieces shattered, replaced that all was good.
Maybe that'll help -
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Hiya
a little similar situation was handed to me yesterday for a Daewoo (GM) Nubira starter - same bosch reduction drive like ours, key it to start - whirrrr, no engagement.
Took it apart - pinion slides freely n all, tested the starter on battery.the plastic fork that shoves the pinion had its foot pieces shattered, replaced that all was good.
Maybe that'll help -
A plastic fork?....what a dumb design :o. That can't be the problem with mine, I've had the fork out since this started and it was fine. But it is similar in that it won't engage.....
I discovered in the past few days that it's gotten so the starter ALWAYS takes a couple/few trys before it engages whether hot or cold. Today it was -15F and it hadn't ran for 6 hours and still took about 4 trys and then fired right up, yesterday I had the engine up to temp and shut it off for like 2 minutes max and it took 1-2 trys. I think I'm gonna shim the spring next chance I get, I'm still gonna get some spare starters but I hate getting whipped like this so I gotta fix it......
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Yesterday I ripped my diesel and gasser starters apart, pulled the drivegears and then pulled the springs out of the drivegears to compare (this is a blast :P).
I'm sure the "new" drivegear isn't bosch, no PN's anywere, the springs have the same number of winds but the new one felt kinda "dead" and was slightly shorter, yet they felt like they had almost the same strength with the bosch one being the stronger.
So I swapped springs and put everything back together, this morning it didn't engage for a couple trys and then tonight when I was leaving work it started first try, then after it sat a few hours at my bros it grinded the first try and started on the second. I'm sure your all thrilled to hear all this. ::)
Next I'm gonna put the bosch spring back in the bosch drivegear and use it, for some reason when the gasser starter is installed it engages fine, so I gotta figure out what the deal is.
I've ground the starter into the flywheel a lot but when I looked at my flywheel teeth and they don't look like they're chewed bad at all so I wonder if the gear is engaging and the one way clutch is just slipping and "somehow" making grindy noises...... ???
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Keep us posted, I'm curious.. SO far I'm still running the same reman I ran last winter, the one that was giving me similar issues.. Down to 22 deg F and it worked fine.. ??? Last winter it was a #$&*()!!!! The darned gasser started worked perfect...
May not hurt to take a small file and dress the theeth on the flywheel a bit.. Just enough to make sure there are no burrs...
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About the clicking.
I usually try to crank for awhile, or click for awhile and see what connections get hot.
It's often the solenoid bolt, that the positive battery cable connects to,.. meaning the solenoid contacts have gotten bad.
Several times now I've removed the threaded ring at the bottom of that stud,
shoved the stud inward and turned it 90 degrees.
This most often renews the solenoid contacts, eliminates heating of that post and the solenoid will work again.
Solenoids aren't cheap.
Doesn't help with the grinding but I hope it comes in handy next time it clicks.
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So I put in the drivegear from the gasser starter and it appears to have fixed it :D, today it cranked first try at -2F without being plugged in!!
So I would guess that the horrible grinding was something in the drivegear/clutch trying to grab.
Cheesy new parts, it mustuv been a chinese copy and couldn't stand up to the diesel starters extra power >:(.
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Yup the old worn out original bosch drivegear still surpasses the chinese copy.
It's an old part I installed so when it dies I'll be looking for a real bosch one since I know the cheapos won't work worth a box of water.
It worked perfect tonight after almost all day of sitting (not plugged in), I'm gonna have to get used to it cranking right, it's weird after so long.
Bosch ftw!!!!!
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I'll bet that's the same issue I had with the reman... Probably a cheapo drive.. I wonder if maybe it just didn;t dut the armeture properly.. After a few months of use it has been fine...
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The original drivegear for the gasser and diesel starts had the same part number, so I bet the drivegear would work fine on a gasser but can't handle the diesel starters extra power.