VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: BioDieselVW on November 01, 2009, 06:50:29 pm
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Im considering installing a water/meth setup on my 1.6TD. Whos running it now and how is it working. Im unsure if I should build a setup or buckup and get the snowperformane setup which looks sweet. Show some pics and specs of what your running.
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i dont think many people are running one. and i think less people built there own system.
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Soon as i get my *** together i'll build one for my car. Also planning on fogging a little stink(propane) in there too. I can't bring my self to pay 400 or 500 + for a water meth kit that i know i could build.
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I ran a home built one for a while, but it had too many issues(mostly due to the fact that I couldn't find a pump that put out enough pressure)
so I broke down and bought one for $200 shipped, haven't run it yet, but it should be loads of fun.
it will be triggered by WOT and EGT on my new supercharged engine.
-Owen
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Soon as i get my *** together i'll build one for my car. Also planning on fogging a little stink(propane) in there too. I can't bring my self to pay 400 or 500 + for a water meth kit that i know i could build.
propane is bad... diesels are not supposed to have fuel in the intake charge. it ignites way before it should. the propane ignites way before the diesel is even injected.
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done properly on a Direct Injection Diesel, propane can help burn all the fuel better.
that being said, it is generally considered a no no to do on an IDI motor.
(something about breaking the prechambers)
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done properly on a Direct Injection Diesel, propane can help burn all the fuel better.
that being said, it is generally considered a no no to do on an IDI motor.
(something about breaking the prechambers)
I too have heard horror stories of propane destroying the pre-chambers. =(
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Finding the right nozzle is the issue for me ...
there are lots of pumps that make heaps of pressure.
One could possibly run an NA injection pump where the AC would go and that would get you the pressure you need :D
This of course is total nonsense but i think there are pumps that make high enough pressure aren't there? Perhaps a common fuel pump from a domestic. They get expensive when you try to get high pressure and little to now power draw. If you have a motor that can draw enough amps at 12v?
there are some DIY's on this on here. search search search!
EDIT: would it be pointless to have 4 injection points on the intake? 1 for each channel? or should it just be a vapour in the intake close to the valves...
I guess what im really asking is ... is it being injected past the valves or is it flowing into the cylinder with the incoming air?
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Well i plan to put a mTDI in it down the road. IDIs don't like lots of lp but you can run a little bit to help burn up the unburnt diesel.
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the problem finding a pump is finding one that will like the water/methanol.
methanol eats aluminum and water rusts steel(with help from the meth) so you need to find a compatible pump.
fuel pumps seise pretty quick.
the only ones I could find that are water/meth compatible and produce 150+ PSI were built for water/meth injection systems and cost lots of $$
it was not much more expensive to just buy the kit with the proper pump.
-Owen
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=4374.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=4374.0)
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=3724 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=3724)
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the new propane/water injection is actually HHO injection 8)
read up on Stan Meyer for more info. but beware of all those goons out there selling their 'cheap' jars... you need a controller capable of delivering thousands of volts at mere milliamps at the waters resonance level (which is around 20khz). the theory of operation is pretty cool. just like using frequency to break glass, why not use frequency to break apart hydrogen and oxygen? and it takes about 1/3 the energy of electrolysis! at least 50% gain in fuel economy with the right setup... i'm gonna try and build one :) some of the components required are a 555 timer, a mosfet or two (i was thinking two mosfets alternating to reduce the stress on just one.. gotta think longevity here, especially when they are only a few bucks each or free if you have some old computer junk lying around ;D) and some coils to get the right voltage. right now the vancouver gadgeteers are selling the right toroidal transformer core for $700, which is actually reasonable considering the work involved in making them. i might try using 42 gauge wire in bifilar configuration with a larger gauge to try and get 2000+ volts to make it work (about 1/4 the cost...)
the performance increase would also be pretty sweet! the amount of mods required for a gasser to run HHO is pretty extensive, including a lot of timing mods and oxygen sensor mods. with a diesel nothing is really required due to the timing specs already. HHO requires a lot of retarded timing. timing advance might actually need to be toned back on some peoples rigs though... ;)
happy injecting!
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http://d24t.com/showthread.php?t=128 (http://d24t.com/showthread.php?t=128)
Writeup I did on the setup on my D24T. Works great, I found using the more expensive washer fluid makes a bigger difference compaired to the cheap crap. The lower the freeze point the higher meth % it has. I don't think this would worth with an intercooler going in before the turbo, but with no IC, the turbo does a nice job of chopping it up and it really does work.
Jason
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the new propane/water injection is actually HHO injection 8)
read up on Stan Meyer for more info. but beware of all those goons out there selling their 'cheap' jars... you need a controller capable of delivering thousands of volts at mere milliamps at the waters resonance level (which is around 20khz). the theory of operation is pretty cool. just like using frequency to break glass, why not use frequency to break apart hydrogen and oxygen? and it takes about 1/3 the energy of electrolysis! at least 50% gain in fuel economy with the right setup... i'm gonna try and build one :) some of the components required are a 555 timer, a mosfet or two (i was thinking two mosfets alternating to reduce the stress on just one.. gotta think longevity here, especially when they are only a few bucks each or free if you have some old computer junk lying around ;D) and some coils to get the right voltage. right now the vancouver gadgeteers are selling the right toroidal transformer core for $700, which is actually reasonable considering the work involved in making them. i might try using 42 gauge wire in bifilar configuration with a larger gauge to try and get 2000+ volts to make it work (about 1/4 the cost...)
the performance increase would also be pretty sweet! the amount of mods required for a gasser to run HHO is pretty extensive, including a lot of timing mods and oxygen sensor mods. with a diesel nothing is really required due to the timing specs already. HHO requires a lot of retarded timing. timing advance might actually need to be toned back on some peoples rigs though... ;)
happy injecting!
I built a HHO jar last summer just going off of pictures I'd seen. It was such a waste of time, I got bubbles to rise off the wire but it didn't increase mileage at all. And it made a ton of heat!!!!! Then I left it in too long and the jar froze and broke. ::) I saw a ebay add from a guy that had a two jar setup on his diesel rabbit and CLAIMED he was getting over 70mpg!!! and he was selling 'em for 75 bucks. What an easy money maker........
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HHO is 100% scam, don't waste your time. Its been around as long as the "100mpg" carb scam and it works just as well.
I used to have 500cc/minute injection on my MB, its dyno showed 2hp increase at the wheels and no change in EGTs with 50/50. No difference at all using straight water.
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HHO is 100% scam, don't waste your time. Its been around as long as the "100mpg" carb scam and it works just as well.
I used to have 500cc/minute injection on my MB, its dyno showed 2hp increase at the wheels and no change in EGTs with 50/50. No difference at all using straight water.
Completely correct - the energy you put in is more than you get out of it - simple fact. There have been perpetual motion scams since the industrial revolution. You just can't get more energy out than you put in, save for Nukes, but that's not chemistry.
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HHO is 100% scam, don't waste your time. Its been around as long as the "100mpg" carb scam and it works just as well.
I used to have 500cc/minute injection on my MB, its dyno showed 2hp increase at the wheels and no change in EGTs with 50/50. No difference at all using straight water.
Completely correct - the energy you put in is more than you get out of it - simple fact. There have been perpetual motion scams since the industrial revolution. You just can't get more energy out than you put in, save for Nukes, but that's not chemistry.
I like the nuke example :P that's probably as close to 100% energy in as you get out but remember you're adding energy to force the protons to split. (the explosives that trigger the reaction)
There is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine, theory what have you; within the limitations of reality.
I have tried making hydrogen just for fun, to fill up balloons and blow them up, but it is seriously so precise and difficult to do. And the power required is very large. Even with platinum electrodes the power requirement is very high. (for a substantial reaction rate anyways)
Essentially the HHO set up is like saying ... this is exaggerating a bit but for example...
Radical new way to get 500MPG! :O :D
add electric motors to your wheels and a bunch of alternators to your engine and you'll get better mileage. Let the motors do the work instead of the engine!
People forget that alternators put a lot of load on the engine if you're drawing enough amperage at 12v... and that electricity is still energy... haha that sounds funny in my head. As if electricity wouldn't ever be energy :P
a more sensible topic would be to discuss methods of transferring the chemical energy in the diesel to kinetic energy of the car with as little "loss" as possible.
I'm sorry but im going have to agree also, HHO is not the answer :P Unless you have a ready supply of it and can produce it at little to no energy cost...
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How did this thread turn from water/ methanol to Hydrogen. Two totally different things. I guess Im just going to bite the bullet and go with the Snow Performance Diesel Boost Cooler Stage 2 ;D
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here is a good homemade how to.....
just buy a nice pump and you should be fine... 8)
http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html (http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html)
if you buy the 220psi snow pump then piece the rest togather yourself from this how to...you will have a KILLER set-up IMHO
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HHO is definitely NOT a scam. only someone who is ignorant to the facts or has had misdealings with it will represent it as such. do your research on Stanley Meyer's design and you'll learn a lot. as i've previously stated, you cannot achieve a positive result using those cheap jars with electrodes hooked directly to your car battery. 12 volts is NOT enough to produce the amount of hydrogen/oxygen required. check out this youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9XrLOudwRw#) video (move the slider over a bit and press play... for some reason youtube screwed up the video) for a replication of stan meyer's design. the amps are very low, and so heat production is at a very minimum (keeps the components from breaking). just look at the HHO being produced! this isn't some fantasy guys... but those of you who deny the truth are the ones being fed the lies from big oil companies.
and about the 100 mpg carb, its actually TRUE. the gasoline must be fully vapourized though, so its a very tricky design. the hot vapour engine (http://schou.dk/hvce/) is a good example of a super efficient engine that was never put into mass production. sad really, because it destroyed diesel in both mileage and power.
believe what you will, but without significant proof, you can't say that they are a scam. although many unscrupulous people are out there trying to scam people with their snake oil gimmick products... but that's been the norm throughout time right?
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adding to my previous post, i am not surprised at the negative responses to HHO or any other 'green' source of energy. thats the way big oil wants everyone to be 'groomed' so to speak. Stan Meyer's design doesn't use brute force amps to break apart the molecular bond, if that helps you guys understand... every molecule resonates at a certain frequency, and that frequency is slightly dependant on temperature etc. Stan's design used the resistivity of the water medium to moderate his controller to produce the same resonant frequency as the water poured into the tank (any water, any temp). maybe he got the idea from Tesla? so the constant barrage of the resonant frequency breaks apart the molecules by messing with their electrical bond only by shifting the electrons... and its pulsed, so the energy requirement is significantly reduced as well. have you ever seen glass break from sound alone? maybe that will help everyone understand whats actually going on in the cell... ;)
but still, many will try to refute it.. despite several working models out there today, including this japanese HHO powered car (probably uses Stan Meyer's design...)
H2O to HHO water power car in Japan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65RkcDZxPuQ#)
now, combine this technology with permanent magnet alternators (PMA) for 50% better efficiency. still think 500 mpg is just a dream? btw, the controller can be built from a 555 timer, a mosfet, and a transformer. the transformer needs to convert the 12VDC to about 2-3KVDC (amps can be low, so very thin gauge wire to be used, maybe even 43AWG?) now the frequency is the tricky part... but so far my research is saying approx 20KHZ. so you need a 555 timer that is capable of that frequency... and so the stainless tubes act like tuning forks, but there is a certain gap required for maximum efficiency. but i'll leave this alone... anyone wishing to pursue the truth is recommended to read more at www.waterfuelcell.org (http://www.waterfuelcell.org) or watch the video below where Stan Meyer actually explains the process
Stanley Meyer Lecture Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUMMvZSX1a0&feature=related#)
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HHO is 100% scam, don't waste your time. Its been around as long as the "100mpg" carb scam and it works just as well.
I used to have 500cc/minute injection on my MB, its dyno showed 2hp increase at the wheels and no change in EGTs with 50/50. No difference at all using straight water.
Completely correct - the energy you put in is more than you get out of it - simple fact. There have been perpetual motion scams since the industrial revolution. You just can't get more energy out than you put in, save for Nukes, but that's not chemistry.
Not actually true. Correct that the energy in the HHO itself is only proportional (slightly less) to the extra electrical load it makes, but when you factor in the fact that more energy is extracted from the diesel due to a cleaner burn, this changes everything. You're correct that perpetual motion is a scam, but this is not about perpetual motion...
Sorry, just had to get that counter claim in there, a lot of people shoot this down as perpetual motion without really understanding it. The internet is full of these arguments..
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HHO is 100% scam, don't waste your time. Its been around as long as the "100mpg" carb scam and it works just as well.
I used to have 500cc/minute injection on my MB, its dyno showed 2hp increase at the wheels and no change in EGTs with 50/50. No difference at all using straight water.
Completely correct - the energy you put in is more than you get out of it - simple fact. There have been perpetual motion scams since the industrial revolution. You just can't get more energy out than you put in, save for Nukes, but that's not chemistry.
Not actually true. Correct that the energy in the HHO itself is only proportional (slightly less) to the extra electrical load it makes, but when you factor in the fact that more energy is extracted from the diesel due to a cleaner burn, this changes everything. You're correct that perpetual motion is a scam, but this is not about perpetual motion...
Sorry, just had to get that counter claim in there, a lot of people shoot this down as perpetual motion without really understanding it. The internet is full of these arguments..
well perpetual motion does exist, in a few forms... either radiant energy or permanent magnet style perendev motors. several designs have been proven to work, and some patented, but the main reason we don't hear much of them today is the patent office's rules AGAINST perpetual motion devices. overunity devices also exist, such as the bedini motor. people should not close their minds to new ideas simply because someone 'credible' has disproved it. the below magnet motor looks legit, although the lighting makes it questionable.
magnet motor FREE POWER PERENDEV NO GASOLINE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYcjjSfiNNE#)
and an australian inventors magnet motor
NEWS Perendev magnetic motor home made (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hk57_6uV3k#)
all the supressed inventions/science are now coming to light with the advent of the internet and the sharing of information. we should be accepting these 'new' ideas with a different mindset. be skeptical, but do not try to use modern science to disprove them outright without giving them a chance. because as i've stated before, there are always people out there willing to scam people, and that gives the science a bad reputation...
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Radiant energy and permanent magnets aren't actually perpetual motion though. I'm definitely not interested in getting into a deep discussion about it, thousands of people are already having the same arguments all over the www. I just wanted to make the point that there is potentially something in the HHO argument, but many start using phrases like "perpetual motion" and "scam" to shoot down the idea, without really understanding how and why it works.
For the record, science will never out and out disprove anything, as it is always subject to a lack of information. That is what maths is for.... ;D
When somebody devises a practical perpetual motion device, they will be (have already been) assasinated, as it would devalue everyday fuels (who needs fuel when we have free energy) and destroy the world economy overnight.
You are right that people need to be more open minded, and not simply believe whatever they are spoonfed,
I would say we are taking this thread well off tangent though :-[
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when you factor in the fact that more energy is extracted from the diesel due to a cleaner burn, this changes everything.
Which changes nothing since that doesn't happen. There is nothing for it to aid. Hydrogen is simply an additional fuel and oxygen is just oxygen.
I hate to disappoint you jtanguay, but most of what you're producing in that video is steam.
still think 500 mpg is just a dream?
Not only a dream, physically impossible. Have you done it? Has anyone actually done it? Didn't think so.
despite several working models out there today, including this japanese HHO powered car
That is a plain hydrogen car, not HHO. The system needed to produce enough hydrogen to drive a car alone would be as big as that car itself.
Claims that HHO works in an engine are very easy to disprove.
How?
Start the engine.
Start HHO production. The engine RPMs should race out of control from the additional fuel (or go very rich in a g@sser).
Shut off the engine's fuel supply. If HHO actually works, at the absolute least it will produce enough hydrogen to keep the engine running.
Not a single person has been able to do it yet.
Why? Its another reason it doesn't work: Hydrogen is an extremely weak fuel when used for IC engines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7)
The BMW gets 16.9mpg on g@s but only 4.7mpg of liquid hydrogen (which is far more dense than compressed gas hydrogen).
It uses a 30 gallon liquid hydrogen tank cooled to −423.4 °F that can hold 75% more hydrogen in the same volume of space as a 10,000psi compressed hydrogen tank. Granted its got a 6.0L V12, but that 30 gallon tank is only enough get a 125 mile range, 32 miles if it were compressed gas.
Consider now that a cubic foot of Hydrogen (not compressed) only contains 319 Btu per cubic foot. An hour of driving would require over 300 cubic feet of Hydrogen!
How much gas does your "generator" produce? A few liters per minute? Come back when you've built a machine that can produce about 4,000 times the volume and then it might be a viable option, if you can haul around your own mini powerplant to support the energy it would require.
Fuel cells and nuclear power are totally different applications, they actually work and are viable alternatives, hydrogen as an IC engine fuel is not.
This websites presents most of the factual, and scientific, reasons why hydrogen "generators" simply don't work: http://mb-soft.com/public2/hydrogen.html (http://mb-soft.com/public2/hydrogen.html)
"Two grams of Hydrogen is only 1/227 pound, so the electrical energy actually required to produce a pound of Hydrogen is therefore 68,300 * 227 or 15,500,000 calories of electrical energy! This can be converted into 18,000 watt-hours or 18 kWh. As noted below, the existing technologies to create Hydrogen by electrolysis are all around 20% efficient, which means that around 100 kWh of electricity is used up to produce a single pound of Hydrogen gas. If a house's current 15-cent per kilowatt of electricity is used, that therefore would require at least $15 of house electricity to be used up to create that single pound of hydrogen gas! We will see below that one pound of hydrogen gas contains just under half of the chemical energy of a single gallon of gasoline, so, even if everything else was perfect, more than $30 of modern house electricity would be required to simply PRODUCE an equivalent amount of Hydrogen gas to one gallon of gasoline! And then that gas would have to be ferociously compressed and all the rest."
Basic science thats been around for 200 years disproves the possibility of HHO ever actually working. No theory, no "what if" imaginary inventions (which would actually revolutionize far bigger things than HHO scams) and no selling lies to gullible customers.
Enough wasting time, lets get back to the original topic since HHO scams are not even remotely related to it.
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when you factor in the fact that more energy is extracted from the diesel due to a cleaner burn, this changes everything.
Which changes nothing since that doesn't happen. There is nothing for it to aid. Hydrogen is simply an additional fuel and oxygen is just oxygen.
Nothing for it to aid? Are you suggesting that all diesel engines fully and effectively burn 100% of all diesel ever injected?
To be fair, I won't stand and say absolutely that it will or wont work, because I (probably just like you) dont have conclusive proof either way.
I will state that it is not an unrealistic concept, and doesn't need to involve perpetual magic. Perpetual motion is everybody else's basis for shooting the idea down. Whats yours? I doubt very much that you also know for a fact whether or not it works. Does propane fumigation also not work because there is "nothing for it to aid?"
I think you should qualify your comments in a separate thread, I would genuinely be interested in any sound evidence or research you have either way, as I would like to test this out myself one day.
I will happily chip in on another thread, but with apologies to the OP, I won't be posting more on this line in this thread :-X ;D
Much love, MM
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I hate to disappoint you jtanguay, but most of what you're producing in that video is steam.
actually its not steam. how can you produce steam let alone that much steam with less than an amp of electricity? (the cell doesn't heat up like most scammers electrolysis units...) if this is such a 'scam' then why was Stan Meyer poisoned??? the arabs offered him over a billion for the technology too... and there are many people who are taking his patent circuit diagrams and building it for themselves.
oh and the argument that compressed hydrogen doesn't contain as much BTU's as gasoline is valid (and such a great way to try an debunk hydrogen as a fuel), but again HHO is about hydrogen and oxygen. the combination of the two gases produce more BTU's than gasoline, and in a torch application, can reach temperatures far exceeding oxy acetylene gas... i wonder why NASA doesn't just fill 'er up with gasoline instead of hydrogen and other oxidizer fuel?
but alas, this thread has gone out of control. i just wanted to point out a viable alternative to water injection. my personal experience with water injection wasn't great. the engine rpm did go up when i kicked it on, but i highly doubt it did anything spectacular. i'd suggest not doing it and going air/water intercooling for less money. the only benefit of water spray is the intake and cylinder cleaning, but be sure to get the engine up to temperature so any excess boils out of the oil, or you'll get some nice hydrochloric acid buildup in there.