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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: CathodeRayTube on October 20, 2009, 05:20:38 pm
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Hello! this is my first post on this forum...I am planning out how to build my single tank WVO heating system, and i plan to use the 1.6l SB series IDI engine.
My question is, when the engine is not running at all, can fuel be forced thru the injector pump inlet and thru the injectors and back out the return lines via an external electric pump? What this is supposed to accomplish is to prime the entire IP/injector system with electrically preheated HOT WVO before the engine even starts, thus allowing the engine to start cold on heated WVO with no ill or damaging side affects..in theory..
any ideas?
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it wont work. you need over 1800 psi to make the fuel flow through the injector lines. you can get it circulating through the pump, and some of the injector return lines, but not the injectors themselves. not with a small lift pump anyways. ive got a small shaker fuel pump for a lift pump and it works great for priming the fuel pump, but it wont prime the injectors.
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Interesting concept.. But The Road raging rabbit has it.. Now if you were to say somehow route the return line from the pump in some way that it could exchange some heat to the lines and injectors you may have something.. But getting enough heat transferred woudl be the trickey part.. Lots of insulation on the fuel lines, filter, and tank woudl help.. How are you planning to heat the oil??? BLock heater or some variety of element in the tank???
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I do not actually have the engine yet or the pump so i havent been able to take things apart and figure out how things actually work...we have an 81 rabbit, but my father drives it all the time so i cant do much other than open the hood and examine everything. My project is swapping a 1.6 VW TD into a Toyota Tercel 4WD station wagon.
but anyway after reading the first reply from Rabbit on Roids i think im going to use my electric pump/heater for priming the pump itself...and then possibly wrapping the injector lines with electric heating element wire to heat them as well...the before-pump heater i plan to construct using a 12v hot-water heater element. I also thought about just running a high current thru the injector lines themselves wich would cause them to act like heating elements and get hot...but i think that would be hard on them and would also be hard to accomplish because of electrical insulation issues...
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My project is swapping a 1.6 VW TD into a Toyota Tercel 4WD station wagon.
Neat!!!
plan to construct using a 12v hot-water heater element. I also thought about just running a high current thru the injector lines themselves wich would cause them to act like heating elements and get hot...but i think that would be hard on them and would also be hard to accomplish because of electrical insulation issues...
You're also gonna need plenty of alternator and battery to supply enough juice.. You're gonna need some way to plug it in when it's not running if it's going to sit any length of time.. You may be better off with 120v ac heating when it's sitting, and using dc heating as a supplement to using hot coolant while running.. EVen then it's tough to keep the engine at operating temp.. Not only do you need the WVO to be around 170 deg F so that it sprays properly, but the engine needs to be at operating temp to prevent the wvo from essentually burning fast to the pre cups, and pistons..
It's a bit more work, but you'd be best off fabricating a 2 tank system.. THe lovely PA weather is a tad unpredictable, and crap happens.. It's nice to have some diesel to fall back on... Some have been fine with single tank setups, and in a warmer mor predicable climate it would probably work... But, with a 4x4 Tercel wagon I would hope you plant to take it out to play in the snow ;D
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You are leaving half of the problem out of the equation. Yes hot VO is necessary, but the engine must be hot as well before injecting the VO otherwise you will get ring land coking and then loss of compression. And VO must be a minimum of 150F before injecting it for it to burn properly.
Try to look at it this way. If you put a small amount of VO in a cold pan and set the pan on the stove and turn on the heat, the VO will eventually smoke and burn and will leave a carbony sticky mess behind, i.e. your cylinder walls by running VO in a cold engine. Now take the same pan (cleaned) and heat it to 400F and then pour in the same amount of VO. It too will smoke and burn but after the VO is gone the pan will be clean.
Good to this site and just read for a while. http://www.frybrid.com/forum/index.php
I am not affiliated with Frybrid but I do own and use one of thier kits and it works flawlessly. If you do your homework you will realize that it is a much better use of your time and money to buy thier proven kit. It is possible to build your own kit, but there is much room for ruining a motor that way than to use a time tested kit.
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^^^ WHat he said!
I pretty much ripped off greasecar and frybrid's setups on both my cars.. No problems yet, other than the silver bunny is a cold blooded _____! If I knew where I put them I'd share some nasty pics of WVO gone wrong...
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you can use photobucket to host the pics, then link them to the site
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You are leaving half of the problem out of the equation. Yes hot VO is necessary, but the engine must be hot as well before injecting the VO otherwise you will get ring land coking and then loss of compression. And VO must be a minimum of 150F before injecting it for it to burn properly.
Try to look at it this way. If you put a small amount of VO in a cold pan and set the pan on the stove and turn on the heat, the VO will eventually smoke and burn and will leave a carbony sticky mess behind, i.e. your cylinder walls by running VO in a cold engine. Now take the same pan (cleaned) and heat it to 400F and then pour in the same amount of VO. It too will smoke and burn but after the VO is gone the pan will be clean.
Good to this site and just read for a while. http://www.frybrid.com/forum/index.php
I am not affiliated with Frybrid but I do own and use one of thier kits and it works flawlessly. If you do your homework you will realize that it is a much better use of your time and money to buy thier proven kit. It is possible to build your own kit, but there is much room for ruining a motor that way than to use a time tested kit.
^ ^ ^ im pretty sure thats what some dumb ass did with my car. ran normal crappy un heated fryer oil in it. cause it dont have S--- for compression and it is addicted to starting fluid.
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I am planning out how to build my single tank WVO heating system
...yeah, what everyone else said... There's no good way to run veg in a one-tank kit with unheated engine. The OM603 mercedes engine can certainly take it for a while (they'll run on near anything), but with a cold engine you'll run into problems with rings sticking, loss of compression, dilution of the crankcase oil, incomplete combustion, etc. The wear is almost always during starting, not during regular running. I don't have any pics, but just finished rebuilding a 1.6 that was single-tanked for 10k miles until it wouldn't start any more(it needed everything). SolarSteve is right about the hot engine and the pan example, except that you shouldn't waste the extra $900 and be waiting around for months for you kit...order one from greasecar (in all disclosure, i am very biased).
how are you planning on mating the trans and mounting the engine in the tercel?
^ ^ ^ im pretty sure thats what some dumb ass did with my car. ran normal crappy un heated fryer oil in it. cause it dont have S--- for compression and it is addicted to starting fluid.
...yeah, i'll bet the rings are junk. You may be able to re-ring and get a little more life out of it...
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test
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Sorry about my previous "test" post, I'm having issues posting.
except that you shouldn't waste the extra $900 and be waiting around for months for you kit...order one from greasecar (in all disclosure, i am very biased).
You're biased towards Greasecar and you live in Mass, NO WAY!! ;)
Frybrid or Greasecar, both will be lightyears better than running VO in a cold motor. I believe the Frybrid system is a better system, but I won't debate that on this thread.
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I am planning out how to build my single tank WVO heating system
...yeah, what everyone else said... There's no good way to run veg in a one-tank kit with unheated engine. The OM603 mercedes engine can certainly take it for a while (they'll run on near anything), but with a cold engine you'll run into problems with rings sticking, loss of compression, dilution of the crankcase oil, incomplete combustion, etc. The wear is almost always during starting, not during regular running. I don't have any pics, but just finished rebuilding a 1.6 that was single-tanked for 10k miles until it wouldn't start any more(it needed everything). SolarSteve is right about the hot engine and the pan example, except that you shouldn't waste the extra $900 and be waiting around for months for you kit...order one from greasecar (in all disclosure, i am very biased).
how are you planning on mating the trans and mounting the engine in the tercel?
^ ^ ^ im pretty sure thats what some dumb ass did with my car. ran normal crappy un heated fryer oil in it. cause it dont have S--- for compression and it is addicted to starting fluid.
...yeah, i'll bet the rings are junk. You may be able to re-ring and get a little more life out of it...
nah, its toast, its addicted to ether. it needs to be bored and gone through. its got 150k mi on it. if its too cold out, it wont start. period.
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how are you planning on mating the trans and mounting the engine in the tercel?
I had planned to have a custom adapter plate and engine mounts made. i may end up having to have a custom oil pan built also because the tercels frony diff is part of the tranny and the engine sits on top of it.
so far from what iv heard right here i think its still definitly a worthwhile project dispite the new supposed setbacks...
so your saying that even if the grease is heated to around 150f min (i was actually planning to shoot for more like 200+) in the injector lines and the entire rest of the fuel system before the engine is even started, it will still harm the inside of the engine because the engine itself/cylender walls etc are still cold and the grease will stick to it and not burn right? even if the grease itself is up to proper temp immediately before it hits the injectors?
my other "big idea" was to build an on bored pumping/filtering system that would allow pumping directly from a restaurants barrel into the fuel tank...complete with water sensors and filtering down to 1 micron...or should i largely forget this as well? i haven't thought much about dewatering other than how to avoid/filter out large amounts of that may be present at the bottom of a grease barrel.
i suppose it wouldnt be the end of the world if i have to start on DD/BD and then switch to WVO/WMO after the engine warms up...alltho i would love to be able to run 100% oil all the time from cold start if it can be done at all without harming/risking anything...regardless of how complex the heating system has to be to accomplish this...
I appreciate all the advice and replys so far, id much rather somebody tell me certen things are good/bad ideas before i waste any time/money on somthing that wont turn out well...
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Going dumpster to tank, no matter how many filters and "water blocking" filters won't work.
First and foremost you need to buy the book SVO by Forest Gregg, its about $15 and you can get it on Amazon. There is A LOT you need to learn about running VO in a diesel. You can't just filter it down to 1 micron and call it good. There is emulsified water, water on a molecular level that attaches itself to the VO molecules that needs to be removed and no water blocking filter will remove it. I can explain all of this in great detail if you wish, but briefly, you need to set up a good filteration/de-watering set-up and start producing clean, dry oil and test it to be sure, before getting to far with your kit.
I'm telling you, go to the Frybrid site and just READ. You don't need to become a member on the forum or buy anything, just read. You will learn volumes in how to do this properly and how to build your own filtration system. I built mine for less than $150. If you try to run VO in a cold engine, VO below 150F, don't dewater properly or filter you WILL ruin your engine.
I have a 1991 Jetta 1.6L N/A that I have been running VO in for about 20K and a little over 1 year. In that 20K, I fill about 5 times a year. If you are going to build your own system, build a 2 tank system and start and shut down on diesel.
WHAT I AM TELLING YOU WILL SAVE YOUR ENGINE FROM A VERY EARLY DEATH, I AM NOT TRYING TO SCARE YOU, ONLY INFORM YOU!
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^^^ What Steve said again! ;D
I have actually seen a decent system that will do "dumpster to tank" with WVO.. However the size and amount of machinery used filled the back of the Suburban! :o Plus the generator mounted under the hood to power it all was rather bulky... In reality it's just not practical..
AS far as fitment in the Tercel, I was wondering about oil pan clearance, been a while since I've looked over one of those but I thought the engine sort of sat on the trans.. Your car is a manual, right?
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yes, it is a manual 6 speed (has extra low+5 speed). all of this isnt set in stone, i was planning to get the old toyota gas engine out and see what i have to work with as far as space and flywheel measurments go before i decide finally what i do with it. im restoring the whole car, repainting, lifting and doing the interior. the VW diesel is my first plan. if that wont work for w/e reason plan B is to go pure electric, but i decided against that because it would be alot more costly than i can swing right now. plan C is to just clean up the toyota 1.5l 3A gasser and put it back. I plan to create a website for this project and document everything. iv already taken lots of pictures of my rust repair work so far, wich i really have to get out of the way before i can move onto much else..
I want to ask though once again, all the damage from running a single tank setup comes from starting a cold engine on cold oil? correct? and everybody is telling me that it would make no difference if the cold engine was started on HOT preheated oil, it would still be a bad idea and would damage it the same way as cold oil would?
i did do some reading on the frybrid website as well as others, and i couldnt really find a real answer to my question there either, because i guess all the "single tank" systems that are discussed only consist of people dumping grease into there unmodified stock fuel systems with no heating whatsoever and expecting it to work. there are also several websites claiming to sell injector line heaters that allow cold starting to work (vegiecars dot com, and fattywagons dot com i think)...
again, my idea was to be able to start a cold engine on hot oil, not starting a cold engine on cold oil.
Im anxious to actually try the frying pan experiment that was suggested also...(outside away from combustibles of corse)
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I want to ask though once again, all the damage from running a single tank setup comes from starting a cold engine on cold oil? correct? and everybody is telling me that it would make no difference if the cold engine was started on HOT preheated oil, it would still be a bad idea and would damage it the same way as cold oil would?
Yes you got it... AS far as oil temp, the reason for having the oil heated is to lower it's viscosity to that close of diesel fuel so that it will spray out the injector properly.. Engine temp out of the equation, if the oil is cold it basically dribbles out of the injector instead of spraying out in a fine mist (atomized). With the oil improperly atomized it does not burn properly and leaves the nasty deposites on your rings, cylinders, precups.. The nasty deposits often referred to as "coke" is the unburrned glycerine in the oil.. (The stuff that is removed when one makes biodiesel)
Now let's say you do have the oil hot, and atomizing properly but you are spraying it into a combustion chamber that is at 70 deg F instead of say 300 deg F.. THe oil sprays in and instantly starts to cool down (condense of sorts) before the combustion happens.. Once again you'll end up with nasty coke deposites.. Maybe not as fast as say cold oil in a hot engine, but it'll happen...
Once you try the frying pan experiement (I'd suggest using a crappy cheap pan that you are not afraid to ruin) you'll be able to see it better...
The reason this isn;t a problem with diesel is that it natually has a lower viscosity to begin with, not to mention none of the nasty glycerine..
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after buying a car that has been ruined by VO/biofuel, i will never think the same way about it. im absolutely 100% anti vegi/bio fuel. its too god damn complicated. and i dont like the fact that you can give your engine a coke overdose. anyone have any reasons why its better than diesel besides the fact that waste oil is free and bio diesel is cheap? like any good valid reasons TO run it? or is it just pretty much not worth my time like ive been thinking? or can you actually wash all the glycerin out of bio fuel? all i know is i had an entire fuel filter of black goo when i bought my car and ran my first tank of real diesel in it. it was nasty, sticky black goo. and it stunk.
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im absolutely 100% anti vegi/bio fuel.
I think that really is a shame, somebody elses mistake has biased you against something that is a good idea when done correctly. From my understanding, Biodiesel is a safe drop in replacement for Dinodiesel and wont do any harm whatsoever...aside from possibly eating up rubber seals, wich can be remedied. Vegitable oil is what seems to be very tricky to deal with and use, and somebodys poor implimentation of it is what ruined your engine. Im all for both providing that they can be used in ways that wont destroy hardware, because i like the whole "earth friendly" thing.
Now let's say you do have the oil hot, and atomizing properly but you are spraying it into a combustion chamber that is at 70 deg F instead of say 300 deg F.. THe oil sprays in and instantly starts to cool down (condense of sorts) before the combustion happens.
Isnt the piston at the height of the compression stroke when the fuel is sprayed in? isnt the air in the chamber highly compressed and indeed at 300F+ when the fuel is sprayed in? and doesnt the fuel immediately combust upon hitting the hot air charge?
or am i confused with direct injection or something else?
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im absolutely 100% anti vegi/bio fuel.
I think that really is a shame, somebody elses mistake has biased you against something that is a good idea when done correctly. From my understanding, Biodiesel is a safe drop in replacement for Dinodiesel and wont do any harm whatsoever...aside from possibly eating up rubber seals, wich can be remedied. Vegitable oil is what seems to be very tricky to deal with and use, and somebodys poor implimentation of it is what ruined your engine. Im all for both providing that they can be used in ways that wont destroy hardware, because i like the whole "earth friendly" thing.
Now let's say you do have the oil hot, and atomizing properly but you are spraying it into a combustion chamber that is at 70 deg F instead of say 300 deg F.. THe oil sprays in and instantly starts to cool down (condense of sorts) before the combustion happens.
Isnt the piston at the height of the compression stroke when the fuel is sprayed in? isnt the air in the chamber highly compressed and indeed at 300F+ when the fuel is sprayed in? and doesnt the fuel immediately combust upon hitting the hot air charge?
or am i confused with direct injection or something else?
well, im not sure if it was veg or bio that ruined my car, but it was something. i know that it had lots of stinky bio diesel in it when i got it. and that the fuel filter was plugged with black glycerine gunk. you guys may not want to hear this, but my preferred fuel is 2/3's waste motor oil, 1/3 trans fluid & 2stroke oil, and then some coleman fuel to thin it down a bit. my car makes so much more power on that crap than on regular diesel. its amazing. and it smells like it has a horrible set of rings when i run it on that stuff. haha.
and if i were worried about my cars being earth friendly, they most certainly would not be tuned to make smoke screens. LMFAO!
the world is already pretty much toast, global warming is here. no reversing it. so im gonna have fun while i can. and if that means polluting the air, then so be it. everyone else on the planet is guilty also.
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I actually planned to use WMO also, or have the ability to mix all 4 types of fuel together (WMO, WVO, BD and DD) or run whatever one i want 100%...and i had planned to tune mine for black clouds on-command as well...but i still like to do what i can to help save the earth, until it becomes overly inconveniant, then to hell with it...i have the spiral lightbulbs in the house and we recycle etc...thats enough.. the WVO/WMO is more about saving $ than saving the enviroment, but its still a nice side affect.
Please dont forget about the last question about the piston compressing the air making it hot, id like to figure that out as well.
have any of you actually either destroyed and engine OR run single tank for years with no problems, YOURSELF?
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What Maxfax posted about the cold engine is true, but there is more to it. A diesel needs compression to run. When you first fire the motor up, it is cold and so are the rings which will be "contracted". As the engine warms up the rings expand and the cylinder seals up containing most of the combustion gases. The motor oil that you run in a diesel is designed to deal with the unburnt diesel that willblow by the rings until the motor is hot and the rings expand.
Now, running VO in a cold motor will result in VO being blown past the rings until the motor is hot and the rings expand. VO does very nasty thngs when it reacts with certain metals and heat and oxygen. It will polymerize or turn "plastic". Copper, mild steel, pretty much any metal that is not Aluminum or Stainless Steel with react with VO. Then you have the high heat of the motor oil and the constant mixing with air in the crankcase. All of these will cause the VO to polymerize quickly in your crank case and all the oil passageways and in the head, turning your oil into a sludgy goo that will not lubricate your motor properly.
Yes, to your question about the piston being close to the top of the stroke when the fuel is injected, but if the motor is not up to temp all these other things will happen causing an early death.
Its cool what you are trying to do, but this has been tried before and researched. The best way to run VO and keep your motor running is a good 2 tank system.
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A bit off the topic, but I have a question for you Steve, you ever have problems with moisture in your WVO tank??? Not from water in the oil, but moisture being drawn in from the oil cooling and fuel being used and such???
About a year ago I noticed small amount of water in my filter when I was changing it.. I've been monitoring the filter and testing samples from the tank ever since.. Oil going into the tank tests fine, but say a sample after burning a half - three quarters of a tank show some slight signs of water... I've drained and cleaned the tank a few times just to verify there was nothing in there from a bad batch or something like that...
I do have an external fuel fill (behind the liscense plate) thought maybe that was the culprit, but a new non vented cap and a pressure/vacuum test show it's sealed.. The tank vent is routed up into the c-post instead of the exterior of the car as originally planned but of course there still will be some humidity inside the car I suppose...
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Do you have a homemade kit or a bought kit (Frybrid, Greaecar, ect.). I hear the Greasecar filler cap is a real piece of crap. Sorry GC guys...
I have noticed condensation on the top inside of my VO fuel cap and have pretty much ignored it. That condensated water, if dripped into the tank is "free" water and if it gets pulled into the fuel line should sink to the bottom of my VO filter, just like on the diesel side. Occasionally, I drain off the VO filter and will probably change it in a few months. I have never tested the VO that I drain from the filter.
I have my tank vented from the top of the tank into a catch bottle that is secured next to my tank. Every 3rd or 4th fill up I dump that into the tank.
On the Frybrid site there are threads about building a "dryer" for your vent. Basically a piece of PVC with desicant in it and this attaches to your vent line so as the tank empties and air is drawn in, the desicant dries it first. I think it is a bit over kill, you still get humid air in the tank when you remove the filler cap to fill the tank.
I drive till the tank is empty and then open the cap to fill it to the top. Most of the time my vent tube submerged in the VO in the catch bottle, so when the tank pulls it pulls the VO back in, kind of like a coolant resevoir. I don't really worry about the little bit of free water than may get in from condensation.
I hope that helps some!
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That is exactly what I wanted to know, THANKS!.. I loosely copied my build from Greasecar and Frybrid (Basically I figured out what I needed, and referred to those systems to make sure I was on track) My vent is on the top of the tank with a hose connected and routed into the rear post.. The fill spout is positioned in such that the tank can only be filled within 1/4" of the top.. So far no spillage.
I originally wanted to vent it to the outside of the car as it would be nice not to smell the stuff all the time.. AS I do now in this car, and on the other.. (No separated trunk in a MK1 hatchback).. But I wanted to be sure there would be no spillage first... I think eventually I'll route the vent into a rocker panel or frame rail or something..
I keep after the filter, and run the tank dry just about every time.. I have a drain on the bottom for "just in case" as well... I figure there is going to be a bit of the same thing going on with the diesel tank anyhow, just a bit more severe with the degree of heating and cooling of the WVO.. I also get condensation on the fill cap..
I'll bet not being able to fill the tank to the very top is probably where my problem is stemming.. It's been a rather moist year and no problems let so I think I'll let well enough alone for now....
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Its still a little fuzzy to me as to why one would worry about water in the WVO...i know a small amount of free water can be removed/trapped without problems..but how can WVO have any water in it otherwise if A. oil and water dont mix...atleast thats what i was always told and understood..and B. if the oil is heated to 400deg.F+ most of its life in a fryer..and then assuming its put into a sealed container and not rained on in a dumpster etc..
another question is are there any issues mixing any combination of various fuel types? like WVO and WMO? or 1/3 diesel -1/3WMO and 1/3 WVO etc...kerosene even...
another thought. I had planned to install around a 30 gallon fuel tank...i technically have room for a 35 (other space was planned to include onbored pumps/filters..)...or i may end up doing a 25 and a 10 or 5 dual tank setup.
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I've mixed all sorts of nasty stuff with WVO.. Kero, Diesel, and right now I am running WMO/WVO mixed.. The thing with WMO is that is has to be filtered VERY well as there can be metal particles in it.. A centrifuge is ideal for cleaning up WMO, not a bad idea for WVO.. I however haven't gotten around to one of those yet, so for now I am rather choosey on what WMO goes in teh fuel mix.... I also have a junk engine in my daily driver that I'm not real concerned about, so it makes a great guinne pig for this stuff to see what happens..
Oil and water doesn't really mix, but water droplets can be suspended in the stuff.. These are the buggers to get out... Generally heating and settling will allow most of it to boil/settle out.. It's always best to assume there is some water in your WVO than not.. Water +Engine = Not good.. The heating in the fryer will get most of the water out, but you can never be sure if someone may have gotten the bright idea to rinse the fryer into the greast trap when they drain it.. Or a bit of rain water got in it, or just plain old condensation as the stuff cools down..
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Just a little more fired food for thought, you had mentioned about installing a 30 gallon tank.. Remeber that the oil in the tank has to heat up enough for the pump to move it.. Doesn;t have to get hot enough to burn as the heat exchangers can take care of that, but heating 30 gallons of oil on a 30 deg day is gonna take a while... Not to mention it'll be alot of weight when it's full.. Definitley you will want baffles in that, imagine at half a tank 15 gallons of oil sloshing to one side of the tank on a hard turn... :o
I have a 15 gallon tank in my first Vegwagon.. Definitely can feel that thing slosh on a turn, baffles or a new tank on on the wish list.. It does seem to heat up okay, but I have a huge heat exchanger in there.. Turns out to be much mroe efficient than I originally intended..
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With respect to the "why water is bad" thing, you'll find some pics around of diesel pumps that have had watery fuel sit in them for a bit. They separate out any time they're sitting around for a while, so you end up with water in the bottom of your pump, then you end up with rust in the bottom of your pump, then you end up needing a new pump.
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Finally found it, here's a decent explanation of "Why Water in WVO is Bad"
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/971105957 (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/971105957)
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Late to the party here, but ditto everything Steve & Max have been saying. I happen to have a Frybrid kit in my Jetta & can't vouch for other types one way or another.
Heating the oil is so important that Frybrid has the in-tank heat exchanger, another heat exchanger on the filter housing, and a flat plate heat exchanger too. Frybrid ain't perfect but considering that this is a very low volume cottage industry, I believe it is a well engineered kit, certainly one of the better ones. You don't have to be a Frybrid buyer (and I have no vested interest) - but go to the forum there and read, read, read. You'll learn lots, and will find links to other WVO related resources. It really is a lot to absorb. There happens to be a thread there now discussing WMO too. :)
From all of my reading, the general consensus seems to be that unless you live in Florida you will need to do a 2 tank system in order to have long term success.
One final thought. A diesel with a WVO conversion done well and run with properly dewatered & filtered oil can have a very long life. A diesel with a bad conversion (or none) can be made to run on junk oil or whatever, and may even do so for a while. But it will ultimately die a premature death.
If you don't mind experimentation and are willing to risk some time & money, go for it (and please tell us what you learn - you may discover something cool and new! 8))...
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From all of my reading, the general consensus seems to be that unless you live in Florida you will need to do a 2 tank system in order to have long term success.
I very much doubt Florida gets to 180*F.
Biodiesel is best in any case. A 2-tank system is bare minimum, no matter the climate, if you must run grease through your precision engine.
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What most people don't seem to adress with WVO systems is the fact that most (all?) WVO is very acidic, and can damage injector pumps over a period of time. I make and use biodiesel, but having converted a Rabbit to run on WVO a few years ago, am not a fan of WVO systems. Are you really saving anything if you only get 1/2 or 2/3 the mileage out of your diesel engine before it needs an overhaul?
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Ahh yes the acid.. Glad you brought that one up.. WVO is indeed acidic... Some more than others, it seems to vary how hard/long the oil was used, and what was cooked in it.. When I started burning the stuff I would test the pH oil I would get.. Some was as low as 5, most of it hovered between 6 and alsmost 7.. SO since then anything less than 6 goes in the waste oil burner.. After a few years though I didn;t bother checking my usual sources since they always fell about the same.. New sources however I do check...
Wayland, it all depends how you look at it.. IF you don;t count your time it is a heck of a savings... Then again if we're counting time, are we saving anything by driving an old VW diesel? :-\
In actuality you can save more by making biodiesel... That is unless you run out and spend 10 grand on your machinery to make the stuff.. And before OM617 lets out his battle cry, WVO is illegal as a road fuel, though you still are supposed to pay road tax on it..
For me the risk is justifyable, and so far been worth it.. As far as the legalities, other than those who have nothing useful to do making calls to the epa, there's really nothing in place to enforce it's usage.. THis past summer when fuel prices were crazy I was expecting something to change on that with the increase in usage but for now that has dropped off..
Using 250,000 miles, and at the time about $3.00 a gallon as a time frame (I know prices fluxuate but it's in the ball park) Factoring in that I get about 48mpg on Diesel and 41mpg on WVO, and the cost of filtration including the electricity used for heating and filtration...
Diesel For 250,000mi -- 5,208.3 Gallons @ about 48mpg $16,304.35
WVO (And Filters,Diesel,Electricity) -- 1666.7 Gallons of Diesel $5000.10
4146.3 Gallons of WVO FREE
Filters for WVO $1382.00
Kw/H Electricity $64.46
Total Cost for 250K on WVO = $6,446
That's a Savings of $9858.35.. Now of course one does need to pay road tax on wvo.. ;D Since WVO is not classified as an alternative fuel in Pennsylvania it get's the full road tax of I think 63.3 cents a gallon.. So we're up to $9070.61, so still a $7233.74 savings... Now of course you need to subtract the cost of the 2 tank system and a filtration system from that.. I dunno what anyone else has invested in their rigs, but I have MAYBE a tad over a grand in the car and filtration system..
That leaves me enough to pay someone to replace the engine, but then again in another 250K the car will be rust.. So I'll have $6233.74 to use as a down paymen on a Prius... ;)
Of course the figures are not 100% exact, but close enough as I do realize a significant savings.. When I rolled 100K on my one Vegwagon I crunched the same numbers.. Came out proportionatly the same with a savings of about $2400 subtracting the cost of the equiptment...
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There is also the fact that running WVO in an on-road vehicle is illegal.