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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: ashleyroe on October 13, 2009, 06:52:09 pm
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the car doesn't run. (unless you hold it at half throttle, to idle)
we got the new pump in.
timed everything. bled the system.
put everything back together.
got in the car, glowed.
pulled the cold start since it's in th 40's.
cranked. starts to fire up but once i let off the key from the starting postion it dies out.
only two diffence we see, is that it sounds different and the smoke is no longer white, it's BLACK.
all the screws are marked with yellow paint from giles, so i'm nervous to make any ajustments.
we did try moving the idle screw alittle but i lose my pedal travel like last time in the process. so we put it back.
it was the only screw with out a marking on it.
help please :'( :( >:( :-[ :-\
video of kevin having to hold the throttle for it to stay running.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/th_DSCN4550.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/?action=view¤t=DSCN4550.flv)
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Well adjusting the idle won't hurt anything so I would adjust that first.
Call Giles for help. He is 100% stand up guy and will help.
It did sound a little clacky, maybe do the 100th check on the timing. And eventhough you bled everything it may still have a little air left in it. It shouldn't be too hard to get it to go now just hang in there.
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If you have a clear IP feed line that'll tell you if air is getting sucked in.
The black smoke makes it sound like you are getting enough fuel. Normally on start up there's a little puff of black as it fires up, I've never seen one continue puffing black smoke running at idle though. I assume the air cleaner is clean? ::)
With a badly adjusted IP the fuel pedal sometimes has to be held down for it to run, but if giles did the pump I doubt that's the case. Your best bet would be to call him.
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yes the fuel is clear and no there are no bubbles. we watched it.
everything is brand new, so yes the air filter is clean.
i think it only sounds clacky through my little camera.
it is a 6 year old camera.
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On vortex you mentioned that you didn't use a dial indicator, if you don't think it sounds clacky you might need more advance.
Or, if your pump pulley has 2 timing lock holes you might have the pump out 180. You can remove the pump pulley nut and see what direction the key is facing. At TDC it should be pointing towards outlet A on the pump. It is stamped on the pump (A B C D) but it's the one farthest back and at the top.
I don't have sound here at work so I can't hear your video
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On vortex you mentioned that you didn't use a dial indicator, if you don't think it sounds clacky you might need more advance.
Or, if your pump pulley has 2 timing lock holes you might have the pump out 180. You can remove the pump pulley nut and see what direction the key is facing. At TDC it should be pointing towards outlet A on the pump. It is stamped on the pump (A B C D) but it's the one farthest back and at the top.
I don't have sound here at work so I can't hear your video
yes the key is facing the correct direction. we were sure to mark the old and new sprockets with paint.
i just bought a dial indicator on ebay. so we'll see how that goes.
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On vortex you mentioned that you didn't use a dial indicator, if you don't think it sounds clacky you might need more advance.
Or, if your pump pulley has 2 timing lock holes you might have the pump out 180. You can remove the pump pulley nut and see what direction the key is facing. At TDC it should be pointing towards outlet A on the pump. It is stamped on the pump (A B C D) but it's the one farthest back and at the top.
I don't have sound here at work so I can't hear your video
yes the key is facing the correct direction. we were sure to mark the old and new sprockets with paint.
i just bought a dial indicator on ebay. so we'll see how that goes.
When you say that you marked them with paint I think bad things. Just listening to the video I would say it is timing related. Let us know what happens after the dial indicator gets there. You do have the cam and IP locks right?
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On vortex you mentioned that you didn't use a dial indicator, if you don't think it sounds clacky you might need more advance.
Or, if your pump pulley has 2 timing lock holes you might have the pump out 180. You can remove the pump pulley nut and see what direction the key is facing. At TDC it should be pointing towards outlet A on the pump. It is stamped on the pump (A B C D) but it's the one farthest back and at the top.
I don't have sound here at work so I can't hear your video
yes the key is facing the correct direction. we were sure to mark the old and new sprockets with paint.
i just bought a dial indicator on ebay. so we'll see how that goes.
When you say that you marked them with paint I think bad things. Just listening to the video I would say it is timing related. Let us know what happens after the dial indicator gets there. You do have the cam and IP locks right?
yes i did have the pin and cam lock in.
tyler brought up a good point now that i think of it.
is the key suppose to be facing the locking pin? or is it suppose to be facing the engine across from the locking pin?
cause if it's suppose to be facing the engine, thats my problem right there.
we put the engine back the way we got it so as far as we had knew it was correctly, but maybe now it isn't!
i really hope thats the problem and the timing with the indicator will help.
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Yeah the keyway should be at the 10 to 11 oclock position if you are looking straight at it with the cam lock in place. That would be away from the IP lock if I remember correctly.
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AHA! MY PROBLEM!
gonna try to fix that tonight or this weekend.
thanks so much!
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question, that doesnt damage anything running it 180 out right?
i mean we only turned the engine over two or three times and shut it off after 5-10 secs of running.
i mean i drove the car before with the old pump 180 out all summer.
but it had no power, wouldnt start on its own, and wouldnt go past 55.
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everything is brand new, so yes the air filter is clean.
Have you visually checked the air intake and filter? As it's getting colder, the air intake can look like a perfect place for rodents to make a nest. I've seen a pile of insulation the size of a volleyball appear overnight...
we had it apart the day before yesterday. no airfilter on it, or intake or anything with cling wrap covering.
then last night we put it together. so i'm 95 % positive there shouldn't be anything in there lol.
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i know that.
i just know it's off because the key is facing the wrong direction.
i still need the indicator to time the pump once we flip the sprocket over.
thanks everyone for your help.
i will post if this fixes it.
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Besides the key in the 10-11 o'clock position, the notch in the sprocket should also be pointing at the notch in the IP mount bracket.
(right?)
Brendan
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sorry for my terrible drawing...
as far as i understand it....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/PUMPKEYWAY.jpg)
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I think you've got it. But to clarify what I was saying:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_mDxOuTI25gI/SoC2nzlX3BI/AAAAAAAAC88/pgxXQlXTXdg/s800/IMG_3861.JPG)
See the little notch on the outer rim of the pump sprocket? That should line up with the groove in the injection pump mounting bracket, directly above it.
Confused me the too first time when I realized there were two holes for the locking pin. ::)
Good luck, hope that works out for you.
Brendan
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oh yeah i see it...
i'm so mad i didn't know this though.
i coulda just opened my bentley and probably saw this.
the only reason i figured out it was 180 out was that the little keyway is suppose to be facing the other direction.
the thing was we were expecting it to be some large problem and not something stupid like this.
so we weren't looking for it.
but we shoulda known better this being the first diesel we've ever worked on.
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so looking at it that way brendan...
with those factors in mind that ididnt know exsisted...
it looked like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/PUMPKEYWAY2.jpg)
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new question, does it matter that the engine you posted isnt my engine?
are these markings on all diesels?
i'm gonna go down a check out my old sprocket because i have the timing belt cover on right now.
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i don't think i have that mark.
this is an old picture but i cant see anything.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/DSCN4143.jpg)
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no i do not have that mark.
this is what my sprocket looks like.
i dont have a huge bracket like that either i forgot to mention.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/DSCN4555.jpg)
that blue mark is where the keyway is.
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i think we're all set now, we read over the bentley.
i'll give an update to let everyone know how it goes tonight.
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well maybe the new one on the car has is and my old pump didn't.
well shall see when we take the timing belt cover off.
my main point is this would be exactly what's causing my problems correct?
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i'm not there to look right now but we will defintely inspect both sprokets of both pumps tonight.
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I think that "dot" on the face of your sprocket is your mark.
Brendan
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They say you only learn about 10-20% when things go right - as opposed to what you learn from when things go wrong.
Sorry all this fell on you like this AshleyRoe.
The last time i read about your car was when you had a flywheel timing mark/TDC issue after headgasket job.
Didn't know you encountered more issues.
Figured it all worked out and ran fine. And that you probably just did a Giles pump for more pimping.
Probably redundant now, but just in case. My primary education coming from lifetime of gassers, to diesel - in regards to pump timing relations -
was to consider the pump pulley as the rotor button
the pump housing as the distributor housing
the delivery valves as the distributor cap
the hard fuel lines as the spark plug wires
It pulled me into focus pretty easy and de-complicated the strange looking mysterious gizmo.
Lord V picture is A2 hardware, as opposed to your A1.
Good luck with it tonight.
Little car should be a different animal very soon.
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Good luck with it tonight.
Little car should be a different animal very soon.
thank you.
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WELL!
the pump was 180 out! and guess what?
it starts right up and runs FANTASTIC now.
thank you guys and tyler for helping me out, so much.
video tomorrow!
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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i'm surprised on how fast it is.
runs sooooooooooo smooth.
i took it out for a spin to my friends house and i just couldnt get words out to describe how happy and amazed i was to my friend in the passanger seat.
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Thats great to hear AshRoe.
Very happy for you and the car, and your wrencher probably feels like a new man too.
Throw the estimates of 20-30-40% increase from Giles pump out the window. If you were driving 180* out all summer - its going to be a 10-fold increase now.
Something like 1000%, maybe 2000% ;)
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oh yeah, the difference is completely unreal.
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sorry for the way i sound, i have a really bad sinus infection and i'm all nasal-ly.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/th_DSCN4560.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/?action=view¤t=DSCN4560.flv)
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holy cow your short lol, that seat looked all the way forward
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The seat was up a bit :)
Purple shoes :o
Great job, now get a vid from the passenger seat ripping down the road. How big of a difference was it?
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holy cow your short lol, that seat looked all the way forward
i'm 5 3" ;D
The seat was up a bit :)
Purple shoes :o
Great job, now get a vid from the passenger seat ripping down the road. How big of a difference was it?
oh i will once the weather is nice out. it's been a freezing down pour for the past few days. the weekend should be a good time to get some nice fall senic drives in.
the difference is insane.
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this was my support/tech crew, who spent all the time helping me.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/DSCN4559.jpg)
and this is me ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/DSCN4426.jpg)
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Nice Beverages, beards, and if you don't mind me saying you are an attractive lady. Sorry, but the stereotype in my head of a diesel driving woman is more like Large Marge from Pee Wee's Big Adventure...if you can't remember that far back. (http://ssli.ee.washington.edu/people/bartels/personal/large-marge.gif)
Is that a trans laying behind the gentlemen in yellow?
I am happy for you to finally get it going well. Someday I hope to have mine up and running too ::) Lookng forward to the in car vids. What rims are those btw, they look great as well.
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Till a few days ago I didn't know there was a girl on the forum :o It kinna stunned me to see a girl and a Diesel VW lol
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uh oh Ashley is a redhead ;D
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What rims are those btw, they look great as well.
bbs RA's!
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yes :-[
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if you don't mind me saying you are an attractive lady.
Is that a trans laying behind the gentlemen in yellow?
thank you very much ;D
yes that is.
it was out of my boyfriend's sport truck (the gentleman in yellow), we're planning on putting it in my cabby, as the cabby is an auto.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/th_DSCN4564.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v727/pointyourgun2/?action=view¤t=DSCN4564.flv)
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Nice looking Rabbit.
Engine sounds good to, but noticed that there is a high pitch sound that reminds me of a over tightened Tbelt tensioner. Or is that something else?
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oh gee, i don't know.
i watched timing marks while the bf cranked everything down and tensioned it.
if its too tight should i worry?
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If that is the tensioner making noise, then yes it can lead to problems. Such as exsesive wear to pump bushings, intermediate shaft bushings, which can lead to other oil pressure issues, and the tensioner could fail from over tensioning. I'm sure others will chim in about this too. I think that the Bentley service manual has a proceedure for properly setting belt tension with out the special tool.
I think that Andrew (Libbybappa) described it in a post?
Sorry to make you worry :-[.
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Well said Andrew.
I just purchased the VW belt tensioning tool and was wondering what should the Tbelt tension be set to?
Sorry to hyjack the thread, but if Andrew knows, then it would be worth noting in the tech tips section.
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Well said Andrew.
I just purchased the VW belt tensioning tool and was wondering what should the Tbelt tension be set to?
More chime on the tension tool.
Did you buy VW Tool #210 Spearco ?
I'm looking for one.
Found a universal cam belt tension gauge that looks identical - mostly. $56 shipped - how much was yours ?
And where did you buy it ?
12-13 units measured between cam and inj pump.
I have a tech proceedure paper on it that came with a tensioner i bought. I'll post what it says later this evening.
Probably mirrors or reflects Libby's post.
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The tool I bought is from my local Snapon truck guy. He's really knowlegable in tools other than his.
He found it through AST tool catalog. Just looked up the tool # from the Bentley and checked with AST and found it. Also the pump sprocket puller. I liked the pump sprocket puller better than any two or three jaw puller because its really compact in comparison.
The tensioner tool was like $95 and the pully puller was about $100, maybe the other way around. It did'nt really matter to me because it is the right tool for the job IMO.
I'll try to post up some pics later this week.
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I'm not able to post pix - but here is link to the tool i found on eBang.
Can you guys verify if this looks similar to your tension tools ?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350256961668&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
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Yah. Thats looks close to the one I've got.
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Groovy-oso
Coolistic ... lol ;D
Me gonna gettum one of these.
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Sorry, forgot to get that tech sheet out last night - and post the text from it.
Will try for it again tonight.
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Here is the belt tensioner. Also the very nice pump pully/cam pully puller 8).
So I checked what my belt tesion was at, 11 on the gauge. No wonder it runs like crap.
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/PICT1070.jpg)
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/PICT1073.jpg)
bad pic, sorry.
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i have that second tool.
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Works nice, right.
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I ordered the cam belt tension tool i posted in the link from KonicTools. They have an exhaust spring clamp removal/install tool for $24 that looks good - ordered it too.
Those are some nice tools you have Spearco.