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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Ziptar on September 25, 2009, 03:31:26 pm

Title: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on September 25, 2009, 03:31:26 pm
My Eco pump got leaky again, top cover now (reason is obvious later), I was hoping it would hold out until I have $$$$ and cores to send to Giles.

The back story....
Any way week before last I spied a 83 Quantum TD IP for sale on craigslist, not a bad deal, guy was negotiable and claimed it had been rebuilt less than 30K before it blew a head gasket but, it had been sitting for at least 3 years. When I met up with him to buy the pump it seemed OK a bit stiff. It wasn't dry at all,  it still had quite a bit of fuel in it but, it smelled like varnish. The guy threw in a set of TD injector lines and 4 still in the box Bosch rebuilt injectors with it.

OK, back to the pump, the seller said it was from his Dad's Quantum and he'd passed away recently but that he had the pump rebuilt somewhere in the mid to late 90's, he couldn't find the receipt for it. It looked like it had been rebuilt it wasn't too greasy and was covered in a dark grey metallic or argent paint. Well it was until last weekend, I cleaned it with carb cleaner, paint all gone!! I can't find any rebuild tags or stamps.

In order to flush out the old fuel, I pulled the plunger from the fuel cutoff solenoid and rigged up a little bench bleed setup with some tubing and a couple of coffee cans. I was able to flush the old, cloudy, yellow, stinky diesel out by hand cranking it. It was sticky and I couldn't turn it over completely by hand, a tiny bump with a wrench got it going. after that it cranked easily. I hand cranked it until I'd flushed all the goo out with Marvel Mystery Oil and let it sit. Today I flushed it some more and it cranks really smooth and I get a nice little spurt of MMO out of each injector line as I crank it so I think internally she is in fine shape.

Bench Flushing ;D
(http://www.ziptar.com/eco_carat_project/new_used_ip.jpg)

Now you can see why the top cover of my Eco leaks... that reseal kit is what's left over from when I resealed it on the car.  ;) BTW: what is the big, round, black seal for? I could never find anywhere to fit it.

That would have been the end of the story and I would have installed the pump tomorrow but, the time frame of the rebuild gives me the willies.

Odds are it didn't get Viton seals so, I'd better reseal it first.

Ok, now the Advice and Input part:


As always THANKS!!!  :D
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Baron VonZeppelin on September 25, 2009, 09:29:19 pm
i would have at least 1 of those injectors pop-tested at minimum. Preferably all 4. NA 11X is earlier NA - and/or 130-135 bar. This may have been the correct spec for the 83 Quantum TD - however it will not be correct for your application.

Your application calls for NA 12X 150-155 bar.
The NA in the part number is just a prefix, not an NA or TD distinguisher.

Giles sells the TD/LDA reseal kits. Not everyone carries it, but most all carry the conventional kit.

Libby has a DIY in the FAQ on resealing the LDA parts.
Removing/Replacing it is something that has to be done with care and diligence.

The grey paint may have been done by the Dad, not the shop.
Toss-up on that. But its not standard proceedure.

Fill the pump with ULSD and let it sit a day or two, if no leaks - smack it on there and go to town.

Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: burn_your_money on September 26, 2009, 07:19:06 am
50/50 I'd say. Bosch rates their seals for 10-15 years regardless of miles
 
We sell the DGK 121 kit. It's actually for a Cummins pump but it has everything you'd need plus a few spares
I'm not sure if there is just one for the LDA. Giles will sell you it if it exists.
no. Ours go out naked. Giles hates paint for the reason that one flake can get in the pump and cause problems, or get into the injector and cause it to stick. I hate rust so I paint my pumps.
get them pop tested. Most shops will do it for free
yes

I like your bleeding rig, very clever. At the minimum I would take off the advance covers and make sure the piston can still move.
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on September 26, 2009, 09:38:07 am
Baron VonZeppelin & Tyler Thanks for the input!

Tyler, Funny you suggested checking the advance. Yesterday I took the cover off and did just that, gave it a couple of pokes with my finger. It seems to move just fine and dandy. Any point using a Mity-Vac to check for leaks?

I found Libbybapa's LDA rebuild write up (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=19895.0), right there in the FAQ, if it was a snake it would have bit me, missed it the first time.

The rebuilt injector bodies have 155 bar stamped on the holder along with part# KCA30S36/4 and another number 76411.
(http://www.ziptar.com/eco_carat_project/NA11X.jpg)

There is an OE part # on on the label 1 068-130-201-N11 and a Bosch Number 0 432 217 079 090 on the box itself.

I've been doing more Part# checking this morning, I forgot about Bosch's online e-catalog (http://ecat-online.bosch.de/toc/) so I've been running numbers. Part# 0 432 217 079 comes up as well as the injectors in currently in my Eco OE# 068 130 202 D, the injectors in my Eco have the same Part# on the holder KCA30S36/4.

(http://www.ziptar.com/eco_carat_project/inj_numbers.jpg)

They don't cross exactly but they look close, The Eco injectors look to be Eco exclusive (shock & surprise?) but, the rebuilt injector number is used on just about every VW 1.6 & 2.5 Turbo and Non as well at the Volvo 2.4 & 2.4T.

(http://www.ziptar.com/eco_carat_project/applications.jpg)

I also found some info on a Chinese manufacturers website (http://www.chinanozzle.cn/bosch_vw.htm) along with the injectors that are used in the 1V motor, not sure how accurate it might be, looks right.
Nozzle holder Part number   MFR  number   Nozzle holder Type   Nozzle Type   Nozzle Part number   Nozzle opening presssure   Application
  0 432 217 079   068130201B   KCA30S36/4(H)   DN0SD293   0 434 250 103   155.0bar   VW JX/CY
  0 432 217 214     KCA30S36/4(H)   DN0SD297   0 434 250 159   155.0bar   VW 1V

Based on all of that I think these injectors should work just fine in the 1Y code Engine with the TD Pump. Unless the rebuilt injectors shimmed for a specific opening pressure regardless of what is stamped on the injector holders? That would be crazy!!

As for the other numbers. The shaft seal # checks out and # 1 467 010 467 for the seal kit is a good number and comes up. I even found the heat shield and shaft bushing Part #s however, I don't think I am going to try to completely rebuild it, if I did that, and I succeeded, it might make me want a Giles pump less. :o

Article Number     Article Description
1 460 400 004       Bush
1 460 283 312       Gasket / Seal
1 410 501 072       Heat Shield, injection system
1 467 010 467       Repair Kit, distributor

I am temped to just slap the pump on if it doesn't leak but, I learned my lesson on the Eco, should have taken the time to do that top seal.  ::) I'll try the local shop Monday again and maybe see if they'll pop test the injectors.

Then again, I should probably just order from the guys that know best.  ;)

Thanks Again!!
Kevin
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Baron VonZeppelin on September 26, 2009, 10:19:04 am

The Eco was supposed to have come out with dual stage injectors is why a lot of references list them differently. I'm told that never happened though.

Those 155's are all you.
Man what a lucky score !
About $40 each plus core return.
If they give you any goofy songs about testing them - just screw them in the holes. They are reman'd Bosch in the package.
I could trust that.

The LDA is supposed to be the toughest part of resealing.
About $50 in parts for kit and front mainshft seal and shipping.
I would almost want to know it was a satisfactory running pump before throwing $50 at it. At the same time - you may find the seals are excellent.

I would stroke the rabbits tail one more time (or whatever you used when you scored that deal) and put it on the car.

Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on September 26, 2009, 11:31:59 am
Baron VonZeppelin!!!!!

Now you are just tempting me!!!! :o 

I have all new belts, glow plugs, etc and was going to do the timing belt with pump. I suppose I could just swamp the pump out ala the Crusty Crank Method (http://crustycrank.com/resealinjpump.htm#injpump) with everything clamped in place just to give the pump a go.

(http://crustycrank.com/reseal3.jpg)

I did do the belts right before I moved up from Florida in March 08, granted it was all Autozone stuff but, doubt I've put more than 3,000 miles on it since.

:D

It was a bit for a score it think, the injector boxes have $39.95 + Core right on the label so you are correct.

BTW: The guy I bought it from said he had the rest of the engine also, Short Block,(bored 0.50), Head w/intake exhaust manifold, and the turbo with a rebuild kit. When he emailed me I asked for prices and the turbo model. He said to make him and offer and I was temped but, I would have had to haul the short block down into the basement of the building to my storage unit and I already have a core head (check the FS/FT forum :P ). If anyone is interested  he put a craigslist ad out for it all, http://westernmass.craigslist.org/pts/1360794992.html or I can I'll dig up his contact info. He is in Western Mass along the Vermont border.
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Baron VonZeppelin on September 26, 2009, 12:38:56 pm
I wonder if he mixed-up/confused the 2 block codes ?
Or if the ol man built the CR block ahead of time and just switched the parts to it.

He has the rebuilt one listed as TD - but CR code (non TD).

The other is listed as non TD - but CY code (TD).

I'd like to score that stuff cheap !
But even if it were free - too far away for me.
1500 mile roundtrip.

I could use that CY block.
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on September 26, 2009, 06:12:37 pm
quote: "Any point using a Mity-Vac to check for leaks?"

Yes pump should hold vacuum with all other ports plugged. Also use pressure. I've found leak spots by plugging inlet and return ports one at a time and pressurinzing the open port with the pump immersed in a container of diesel. If you find bubbles there's your leak.
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on September 27, 2009, 04:30:44 am
92EcoDiesel, I was just thinking about the advance, hadn't thought of the entire pump.
Just like a finding a leak in a tire tube.
Great Idea!
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on October 11, 2009, 11:59:25 am
Update:

Pump appears to be no good...  :'(, bad vanes, or I've got the timing way off but, doesn't seem likely.

I was staring at my work bench a while ago and realized something. I could put the craiglist pump in and give it a go, if it leaked or had problems then I could just do the top cover on the Eco pump and put it back in.

It rained the last two weekends and part of yesterday, I finally swapped the pumps out in the afternoon. I rotated the engine to TDC, locked the pump, left the tension on the belt and tie wrapped the belt to the cam and pump pulleys. I removed the Eco pump. I installed the TD pump, set the static timing and primed it. It started, ran awful and died. I repeated that a couple of times but, it was getting dark so I quit.

I spent another 3 hours on it today, checked the static timing 3 times, and used a Mity-Vac off the return line with the ignition on to pull fuel through and fired it up. It starts, idles a bit rough but, doesn't respond to the throttle at all. After 30 seconds or so it dies.

I did the Mity-Vac prime like 8 times, it never stayed running for more than a minute and never revved when I used the throttle. I even tried hill billy timing it a couple times when it started and idled long enough.

It just doesn't seem to be puling fuel up from the tank and can't get enough to rev the engine and as soon as the prime is used up it dies. I hung a small bottle of fuel from the hood to gravity feed it but, hardly any fuel trickled down hose and it died with a minute.

Odd, I thought I was set because it pumped fuel on the bench.

Any ideas? In the mean time I guess I'll seal the Eco pump this week and slap it back on.

Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on October 11, 2009, 01:13:20 pm
Did you put the accelerator cable/ shaft in correctly? Did you have a solid stream of fuel in both clear supply and return lines? Try removing the accelerator shaft cable and spring and control the throttle on the pump. Make sure it is not full throttle (fully c.w.) or no throttle (fully c.c.w.).
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on October 11, 2009, 02:32:27 pm
Thanks for the tips. I had solid fuel in both lines, maybe a small bubble here or there. Both lines were completely empty by the time it died each time. I never removed the shaft, it is the original that came on the pump when bought it (Quantum). I tried working the throttle by hand on the pump but behaved the same as using the pedal.

Throttle needs adjustment?
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on October 11, 2009, 05:38:32 pm
Lines being empty means you are sucking in air. Time to pull out the MityVac and find where air is getting in.

 
Quote from: Ziptar on October 11, 2009, 02:32:27 pm
Thanks for the tips. I had solid fuel in both lines, maybe a small bubble here or there. Both lines were completely empty by the time it died each time. I never removed the shaft, it is the original that came on the pump when bought it (Quantum). I tried working the throttle by hand on the pump but behaved the same as using the pedal.

Throttle needs adjustment?
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on October 11, 2009, 06:12:09 pm
Quote from: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on October 11, 2009, 05:38:32 pm
Lines being empty means you are sucking in air. Time to pull out the MityVac and find where air is getting in.

Oooh... so actually sucking air is a good thing, that would mean it should suck fuel from the tank. I'll see if I can't run it down.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on October 11, 2009, 07:21:44 pm
Quote from: Ziptar on October 11, 2009, 06:12:09 pm
Quote from: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on October 11, 2009, 05:38:32 pm
Lines being empty means you are sucking in air. Time to pull out the MityVac and find where air is getting in.

Oooh... so actually sucking air is a good thing, that would mean it should suck fuel from the tank. I'll see if I can't run it down.

Thanks.


Quote:
'I hung a small bottle of fuel from the hood to gravity feed it but, hardly any fuel trickled down hose and it died with a minute.'

Was the pump primed when you did this? Did you have the return dump back into the bottle?

Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on October 12, 2009, 03:48:30 am
It was some what primed when I did it, i got a 2-3 inch long air bubble just below the bottle then I rigged it up, thats how I could see just a small trickle.
The return went back to the tank.
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on October 17, 2009, 07:25:17 am
New Update:

Found the Vacuum leak. it's the throttle shaft bushing or seal, and it's huge!  >:( If it was rebuilt it was a crappy job. I couldn't narrow it down because it was so big I couldn't get it to hold a large enough vacuum long enough to find the leak. Instead I used a small bike tire pump and some soapy water to look for bubbles and that's how I found it.

The weather was supposed to be awful today (and it's not!!)  >:( and I ran out of time yesterday so slapped the old pump in one again with it's leak. I guess I'll pull it again to do the top cover seal, the upshot is I am getting to be a pro at R/R and static timing  ;) .

I guess I could be pissed at wasting the money on a junk pump but, I needed a core IP for a TD anyway, plus I got the correct hard lines and 4 rebuilt injectors, while not a total score at this point still a good deal.

Thank You everyone for your help.
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on October 17, 2009, 07:38:28 pm
Good job finding the leak! In finding leaks, when soap and water is not practical, shaving cream works well.
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on October 18, 2009, 07:47:32 am
Andrew,
Possibly, at this point that may happen, maybe I'll attempt a total rebuild.

I just want to get the leak fixed on the car for now and then possibly rebuild the TD pump as a winter project. I need to pickup a set of calipers so I can measure the shaft and busing.

I was thinking yesterday I wonder what using the Eco plunger and head would be like in the TD pump?  More HP with higher MPG?, Less HP?? or no difference especially with the new injectors. I can get a used Rabbit NA pump that "shouldn't" leak fairly cheap. Maybe put that in for the winter and make an Eco/TD Franken Pump. It would be the total opposite of what most build.

That Idea totally pointless?
Title: Re: New Used TD IP, advice & input needed, reseal LDA? & part# help.
Post by: Ziptar on October 18, 2009, 07:58:25 am
Kind of pointless then.