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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: darrenjlobb on September 20, 2009, 12:50:34 pm
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Hello again guys,
Right, i have fitted an 11mm head from a transit pump to my pump now, this paired with the shimmed main spring on the gov assembly, i was hoping would provide me with plenty of potential..
The problems im having, is, on boost, i cant get enough fuel from it, i have the pump pretty much screwed right out, and theres not a whiff of smoke on boost, as once u come past 3.5krpm, it starts loosing power and boost, so its obviously not getting the fuel it used to on the old head...
It also seems to smoke just as badly off boost as the other head... Im sure i should be getting more from it than i am, any ideas?
I changed the head, the plunger, and return springs, and assoicated shims/washers
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whats this on 1.6td ?
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Nah its on a 1.9td XUD based peugeot...
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its not the mater of banging a 11mm on a std pump and you have big power the pump needs a bit of work+ you want to run boost up to 5000 rpm , i would not put more than a 10mm head on a pug set up , and a well set up pump10mm would be good for 160-180 hp,
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Well its running a hybrid t25 turbo, which happily keeps the engine at 26-28 psi until 6krpm...
The main spring is shimmed, and lda pin grinded... what else can i do to "set it up right" the dynamic advance piston has more travel, as the cap is shimmed out from the pump body, and the springs are also shimmed to keep there spring rates correct.
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control lever . need a nother one or mod one for more travel
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Do you think i need to swap the levers that control the control ring from the 11mm pump?
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the one from the transit is a little beter but if you want loads of fuel , you will have to mod one , change the pivet point
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So are my 9mm lever not giving full travel of the control collar?
And would i need to increase the pumps internal pressure now with the bigger head?
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So are my 9mm lever not giving full travel of the control collar? thats right
And would i need to increase the pumps internal pressure now with the bigger head? no dont think it would make any difrance
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Snakemaster should we be modding the control lever the same way it needs modded for an m-tdi set up as hey has described in the FAQ section?
If so maybe we should just add the camplate from the transit as well while we are at it?
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some pumps dont need it but some do .if your wanting big power i would say yes mod it . i have not put a transit or tdi cam plate in a pump built for a idi so i would not like to say if it would be better .
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I can understand why you would do that for a di camplate but not for a head?
Is there a definate fuel advantage running these levers? I'm running roughly the same pump as darren from saturday and I'm happy enough so far Is there more to come? :)
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Thing is, my car goes worse with the 11mm head than the 9mm, once i go past 3500rpm, it just looses fuel big time... its a nitemare tbh...
Ive seen about that thread about welding the control lever up to extend, but seems pretty precision... can i not just run the 11mm pumps levers? Or wont that work?
Con, you mensioned having to have the max fuel hanging out on its last thread.. i dont have any of that... mines in normal postition pretty much....
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Maybe I cant see the problem because I've a smaller turbo, I've only 19psi?
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Hm.. only thing i can think of, is that im just used to more power.. and because im running more boost, need alot more fuel to notice if its underfueling.... theres deffo more fuel there at 2500-3500, you can feel it pull more, but after that, it tails off really badly...
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I dont see why we need the control collar to travel further on the plunger when the stroke length of the 11mm plunger remains the same as the stroke length of the 9mm plunger. Same stroke length as we are using the same camplate.
Why is it that for a bigger head we need the control collar to move further?
I looked at the transit lever and it has the same pivot point and length of pin as the 306/406 lever so it shouldnt make a difference?
Snakemaster am i missing something obvious as to why we need more travel of the control collar for the bigger head?
Is it something that bosch done on purpose to limit how much fuel went in?
Darren is it possible you are getting the same pull high in the revs but that you are getting more down low and it is making it feel like it is tailing off?
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Im not saying the 11mm pumps levers do move it more.. just an idea...
It just seems that i cant get as much fuel from the 11mm setup as i could from the old 9mm setup, which dosnt make alot of sence..
I just changed the
Pump head / plunger
And also changed the return springs/shims and control color, and the little shim that sits between plunger and camplate all from the 11mm donor pump, i didnt chek to see if the little shim was the same size, as i belive this can effect things...
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Just by eye its the same size, but due to how finely adjusted these are doing it by eye may not be enough.
Snakemaster said the transit lever moved it more but on seeing one with a 406 lever the pivot points etc look identical.
So if the transit lever works the 11mm head ok in a transit pump then in theory it should work ok for the peugeot pump?
Could the "tailing off" be in your head darren?
I have to say mine feels the same but unsure whether its the combination of the gt15 and extra fuel from 11m head that makes it feel like it tails off?
What internal pressure regulator valve are you using?
Could it be possible you arent advancing correctly high up the revs?
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Hm, well if the plugers are identical, and control levers the same, i cant see it would make any odds...
Im deffo not imagining it, it dosnt even have enough fuel anymore to maintain high boost, its leaning it out alot.... the max fuel screw wont physiaclly screw in anymore... its about half i, and it goes tight...
Am i not right in saying, that as everythign else is the same, surly it should now, be injecting 2mms extra worth of fuel per stroke...dosnt make sence...
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There is more travel in the transit levers I'm sure and the camplate is as agressive if not more than the afn one I've got, maybe there is room for more travel for more fuel even on standard pump?
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There is more travel in the transit levers I'm sure and the camplate is as agressive if not more than the afn one I've got, maybe there is room for more travel for more fuel even on standard pump?
Con the camplate off a transit is definitely more aggressive, but the levers have the same pivot point and the same length of pin from what i can see.
If there is a difference its less than 0.25mm cos i cant see it with my eye. Perhaps thats enough of a difference.
Il get pics tonight....
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pumps can be funny things to set up , some transit levers will have more travel than 306/405 ones , i set up a pump for my 1.6td mk2 golf idi , gov mod , adv mod , lda mod , and set up the pump timming , FMI and this ran 18psi and 140hp ish , it would eat mk2 gti 8v no prob , i was happy with the power , had to turn down the max fuel screw as she kiked out a lot of black smoke , i did put pug 306 injectors in her to ,
you may be beter to start with a fresh pump and do one mod at a time and if it dont work just put it back to how it was , there is a lot of factors to make a good pump .
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I have added each mod individually from a rebuilt pump.
Ending now with my 11mm head mod.
Con i did some measurements in a scrap pump with both levers and both were the same as far as i could tell.
Maybe as snakemaster says there are other longer levers?
Darren i can manage smoke on boost, maybe just becasue your turbo is moving so much air that even the 11mm head cant move enough fuel, although that seems unlikely given some of the turbos the likes some are using on here.
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Hm, im sure i should be able to smoke on boost, it runs 26psi....Surly it can push out more fuel than it is :S
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It can push out more but then you've the problem of having lots of off boost smoke.
I now what you mean though.
How have you set it up?
At the minute ive the pin set for as much on boost as possible.
I then have the starwheel as far up as i can get it so that it take more boost to push the pin down in the hope that i can add more max fuel without smoking like a train off boost.
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Well my starwheel si fairly low, to make sure it deffo opens the whole way on boost to get as much fuel as possible from it, and the top screw is right up, so that wen its off boost, its restricting fueling as much as it can..
But the max fuel is wound in as far as it will go, seems to just get stuck half in, and thats it, as much fuel as i seem to be able to run with :(
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Sounds odd, i could create one hell of a smokescreen out of mine if i wantet to.
Im the same as con the max fuel screw is practically hanging out of the pump!
Ive the top screw as far up as possible as well for the reason you mention.
Never worry about getting full travel it wont be a problem.
Colour the pin in with marker, wind the starwheel up as far as it goes, take it for a drive, take out pin and you should see where the pin has marked the boost pin.
I might take a spare boos tpin now and regrind it, its something i havent done.
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See this is where something ive done must be wrong..
My max fuel is NOT hanging in on the last thread... its half way in, in its normal position.... Why the hell is this :S
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HHave you done anything different to me and con?
i have;
gov mod - main spring shimmed
im using the 11mm transit internal pressure regulator giving 600-625ml flow at idle in 90secs
11mm head
11mm plunger
11mm control collar
11mm return springs
11mm shim for foot of plunger
9mm camplate
9mm delivery valves
1mm spacer for advance cover with shim added for spring rate
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Im running EXACTLY the same as you, only thing i havent changed, is the internal pressure regulator.. does your transit one up the pressure from the 306 one? as thats what im using..
Other thing, is my 11mm isnt acaully off a transit, its off a "sherpa" van (ldv thing)... but the number on the pump had "414" in it, so its deffo 11mm right??
But the IPR on that pump has a pipe coming off it, that goes to a thing on the front of the pump, which also has a pipe on it that goes to the top of the lda style thing on it, and to somewhere else as well...
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Yeah should be 11mm. You would know yourself that it was bigger than 9mm anyway?
The lads on here told me to use the transit pressure regulator.
If you take one out of a 306 and the sherpa one the sherpa one should have larger holes in the bottom of it like my transit has.
This affects the pressure, how i dont know but it does lol
Any way you could block the pipes off and use it?
Perhaps you arent advancing properly, that would result in poor performance up the revs?
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I will investigate this regulator, blocking pipe wouldnt be an issuel, cud probs kink / solder it up to stop flow thro it...did you notice a difference after changing it? Or did you change it straight away..
And yeh, the plunger was deffo bigger, dunno if it looked 2mm bigger, but deffo bigger...
It should be advancing ok... i have the advance cover shimmed out by 2 thin metal gaskets from the sherpa pump, did weep a tad to start with, but tightented bolts and seems ok now...
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Anto put the lever in a pump and lock the bit were the main fuel adusts it them measure travel of the control color, having the 2 in your hand it actually looks like the pug one has more travel!
My car had its first long run today, no real problems but theres a miss at cruise around 2k rpm but I think its static timing, in the next few days I'll be tuning and report back, darren I'll get you a video before the weekend.
I'm running 11mm transit head with rover springs and shims, pug ip regulator and levers(shimmed gov), 2mm shaved off the advance piston but springs etc standard pug, pug delivery valves. Goes well but if theres room for improvement I'm happy to hear from the pump experts on here, I may try the transit levers as snakemaster has said.
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So do you have to have your max fuel hanging right out far?
Mine screws right the way in, like mine is acaully as far as it will go, and it idles at 950rpm, and dosnt have enough fuel on boost by a long shot...
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So do you have to have your max fuel hanging right out far?
Mine screws right the way in, like mine is acaully as far as it will go, and it idles at 950rpm, and dosnt have enough fuel on boost by a long shot...
you may have to index the throtle shaft (on the spline), and then you can unscrew the max fuel out , you need to take care, to much on the throtle shaft and max screw= big revs =poped engine , this may help
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the first question that needs to be asked , do you have a lift pump feeding fuel to the injection pump , and if so , how much pressure is being forced into the injection pump ?
it is very possible your starving for fuel .
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burnt-servo - i thought we didnt need lift pumps when using a bosch pump as the vane pump should suck up all the fuel it needs?
Darren if you cant increase your idle using the fuel screw then maybe your throttle shaft isnt on the right splines like snakemaster said.
First time i started mine i had the fuel screw in roughly where the standard would be and it idled at 2000+rpm so something is not right with yours.
Also it wont advance properly unless you have the correct pressure in the pump regardless of what you do to the cover. If you've low pressure it simply will not move the piston its full length.
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Maybe my throttle isnt on the correct spline, altho it shud be :S worked fine on 9mm.. and starts revving right from the start of travel..
This about lift pumps... is it acaully ever nessercery on a VE? Ive always thought the more revs your doing, the harder the vane pump is working, so should always be plenty of fuel there for it to work with...
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lift pump i dont have one on my car , but if i was running high revs and bit turbo +big nozzles , i would fit one , cos your ve pump could cavatate when its trying to suck fuel at high revs and thats not good , i dont think this could be your prob but i have been wrong be fore , is your fuel lines clear blow back to the tank , have you fitted a new fuel filtter , i run a hand pump betwen the filter and pump when it gets sucked in i no the fuel filter is geting cloged, and its handy for priming to ;)
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Primer bulb comes standard on our wee pugs thanksfully.
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As ant said, we have primer bulbs as standard, ive changed the fuel filter as i did orignally think that maybe its starving,but you can prime the system with primer and get excellent flow.. so i couldnt imagine this is the problem.. ive never tried a lift pump, but i assumed this was never really needed...
Ill try moving the spline one notch on the throttle arm this evening as ive got it off work, ill report back later!
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Right, have moved the throttle lever, has made a bit of a difference, in that i have now had to wind my max fuel out to make it idle right, but still, cant make it smoke on boost if i try.... the car is bloody deadly at 2500-3200rpm, torquey as buggery, but just dies off like hell... and as before, more you rev it, more it loose fuel and looses boost... Anyone think it is acaully the pump getting starved of fuel? Or is there anything else i can ajust?
Its annoying me, as without a wiff of smoke, its running an easily clean burn on boost, theres gotta be more to be had!
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is it the same in every gear , warm or normal temp?
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Same in every gear, warm or cold, dont get my wrong it pulls down low, well low for my turbo, but then it just runs out of fuel, apprently the transit/sherpa levers do have more travel...so i guess ill have to try changing them...how much can i wind the gov shaft back to allow for more throttle travel without buggering up the advance?
And would increasing internal pressure help at all?
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I think im going to have a play with the gov shaft..see if it changes anything... screwing in increases pressure under load right?
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What is your thinking behind adjusting the governor shaft darren?
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Well im thinking if i move it back a bit, it allows for more travel, and i also belive the little hole in it, acts as a return to bleed pressure, and i think ajusting it ajusts this?
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Try it and let us know what happens!!
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Ok, right, as changing the gov shaft requires pump removal, i dont have time to do that until at least next weekend, but 2nite, i thought bugger it, and i knocked down the regulator a bit, when i say a bit, im talking almsot nothing, just hit it with a punch and hammer, must have moved a fraction of a mm, but oh my god!! its basically transformed my car.. the power is now there until 5k... and it hits full boost SO much ealier, so deffo better, still cant make it smoke on boost tho, so im sure theres still more to be had!
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Ive drilled a little hole in my bracket so i can adjust it and to be honest ive done it a few times and i cant notice any difference. Il try again and see what happens now ive the rest retty much how it should be.
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Ok, right, as changing the gov shaft requires pump removal, i dont have time to do that until at least next weekend, but 2nite, i thought bugger it, and i knocked down the regulator a bit, when i say a bit, im talking almsot nothing, just hit it with a punch and hammer, must have moved a fraction of a mm, but oh my god!! its basically transformed my car.. the power is now there until 5k... and it hits full boost SO much ealier, so deffo better, still cant make it smoke on boost tho, so im sure theres still more to be had!
When I done that I got clatter at cruise! It looked about 3 1/4s of a mm. How much did you go?
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Its funny cos it was fine yesterday.. but i have noticed a slight bit of clatter today, its fine when you accelerate... just wen cruising slight clatter... as long as its not doing harm im not to worried... it goes like fook! :P
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Dont like clatter....maybe it could be taken out by retarding the static timing? Whats idle like?
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Idle is fine, acceration is fine, its just wen u lift off, and just have VERY SLIGHT throttle at mid revs, just as the engines under bugger all load u get a bit of random clatter, not much though... think ill leave it for now, i did think about retarding the static timing a bit, but it dosnt bother me much as its not much, maybe you have gone further than me with it...
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yea, its the timing. my last engine was so advanced it would ping every time you shifted and had some RPMs built up. sounded just like a wrist pin knocking, but it was just way too advanced. kinda sounds like the discription you gave.
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Darren you said in another thread that your injectors break very high? How many bar does it take to break them?
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I have no idea con... was just told that from the people who cleaned and tested them for me, i didnt ask them specifics...he just said alot higher than standards ...
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the problem with noise at crusing speed could well be caused by the increased internal fule presure caused by ajusting IPR as the IPR is finley balanced with the over flow valve in stock pumps wich then in turn dictates the[ spring rate ]of the timeing advance spring,when the presure is increased internaly it causes the pumps , injection timeing to advance premerturly without the increase in rpm wich would normally be nessiary to obtain the increase in presure ,the way you could over come this problem is to increase the spring rate on the advance piston ?but beaware to mutch internal pressure can cause a inbalance in presure with the delivery valves wich in turn could lead to cavertaion in the HP lines posible fix 4 that could be to use TDI delivery valevs ?
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55eta unfortunately the delivery valves from the transits are shorter than those of a 306 so physically it would not work.
So you reckon if we have increased the internal pressure we need to increase the spring rate of the advance piston to stop it advancing too early?
What is cavatation exactly?
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@anto the whole principle of the dynamic timing advance on ve pums is based on pressure i.e as rpm increase pressure increases which then acts on the advance piston which then in turn moves the timing ring [ more rpm=more pressure= more movement] , if the pressure is increased at tick over it will prematurely increases throughout the rev range and you would reach max advance prematurely and run advanced timing from tick over ,The IPR and overflow valve are finely balance to create a internal pressure at a given p.s.i which the advance piston and spring rate is calibrated to ,so if you increase the pressure without increasing the spring rate your dynamic timing will be advanced when your static timing is spot on so if your engine sounds a bit clacky since you increased IP it could be worth increasing the spring rate by adding a shim or 2 ,or swap the IPR, over flow valve and spring from transit and have it all balanced but weather the balanced option would give a performance gain i would not like to say,but it would cure any timing advance problems as for cavitation it is basically the creation of shock waves that are capable of dissolving metal in the same way as ultra sonic cleaning works. P.S would be interested in the results if you shim the spring as i am building a 11mm pump but was going for the balanced option as it worked with a 10mm head so i was planing to use IPR ,O/F valve + ADV spring from transit with the same mod on the advance as you .As for DARENJLOB im just wondering weather the positive increase in performance that he gained by increasing IPR rate could have been from over shimming when when modding advance spring which can cause dynamic timing to be retarded which would give you a lack of power at higher rpm ,and when he increased the internal pressure he advanced dynamic timing [JUST A THOUGHT ] as i can not see how you can gain a significant increase of power by increasing IP rates as the increase in pressure on the high pressure side of the pump would be a very small increase in pressure, other than in big big horsepower engines where they are suffering from a lack of fuel flow [but i could be wrong on that]
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Cheers 55eta you have given me a few things to think about for tonight....
Il report back with my findings.
At the minute i am using the transit IPR, but i am using the 306 springs and shims in the advance cover.
So basically i am hitting full advance way to early, which would explain alot. I am basically hitting full advance, say, at 3500rpm as opposed to 5000rpm, this is also causing me too much advance at idle meaning i had to retard static advance to stop the clatter at idle.
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@anto it could be worth swapping the over flow valve on your pump for the transit one then setting static timing and see if you get better topend power if that do prove to be the case it is then worth shimming the advance spring to increase the rate then replace the overflow valve which would then increase the internal pressure in the pump an hopefully sort out your problem PS most IDI engines reach max advance at 3800to 4600 with stock bosch advance systems ,unless you lengthen the slot in the pump body and shorten the piston and /or shim out the end caps i would be verey intrested in the results as the pump im building is for aT4 and to gain any acese to the pump means complet removal of the front end +cooliing system
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55eta - when you say overflow valve do you mean the fuel outlet that heads back to the tank?
I am already using the transit IPR.
So use both the transit IPR and outlet/ overflow valve set static timing and see what its like?
Im tempted to go back to my 9mm pump for a while and see what differences there are.
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yes that is the valve it has small holes on the inside ,if the holes on the stock one are smaller or less of them it will increase internal pressure by quite abit .iam not 100% sure but think the IPR on the transit is a higer rate to increase flow not pressure so the over flow valve from the transit should have larger holes or more of them to keep the pressure down but maintian the inreased flow b ut like i said not 100% sure but still worth lookign at as it is not that time consuming as swaping pumps and shimming advance spring ,or you could just replace stock IPR and set static timing ,if it is still the same i would be looking at the advance mod you done .when i built my 10mm pump i did each mod one at atime so if i had change in perfomance weather it was+or- i knew what the cause was as it is far easyer to solve 1 problerm at atime
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Unfortunately i was unable to use the overflow valve from the transit as it physically wouldnt fit in the 306 lda hole (too long).
So im still using the transit IPR and 306 overflow valve for the meantime...
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SO does anyone know if all VE levers (black levers that connect to control collar) are the same in terms of travel?
Basically i have a selection of camplates here now.. and i have some that have 1mm extra plunger travel, but im thinking, unless the collor moves enuf anyway to acommadate it, it wont matter how big the camplate it, is the plunge is always gunna pass the collar at the same point and stop injecting....or does the collar move easily far enuf along anyway?
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Darren i havent had a chance to compare the levers again il hopefully get time this week smetime...