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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Rabbit TD on September 12, 2009, 04:42:17 pm
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I noticed the other day when i was about 40 degrees one morning the Rabbit was hard to start. So today I thought I better check the glow plugs, they are Champions and I had one good one out of four. I have the old N/A engine on the floor and I knew all it's plugs were good and had been running them for 4 years till I put the T/D in last winter. At that time I tested the Champions that were in the original T/D head and they were good then and I have been using them since January but evidently 3 died. I tested the old Bosch ones and they all tested 1.6 OHM's and lit up red in about 10 seconds testing indiviualy and the relay works and I have power at the bus bar and all is good as far as the plugs are concerned. I removed the injector lines and 1 return line to change the plugs and bled the lines at the unions before I started it and it started like it should. The problem is that it cranks a long time now even when warm before it starts even when the glow plugs are not even used like 10 min. after I shut it off. Now what the hell is causing that now? I have no fuel leaks at the unions, delivery valves or return lines and the return line hoses are only 9 mo. old and I only unhooked one of them to get the injector lines off. It runs fine after it starts but it has to crank for like about 6-7 seconds now to start and before it was just a bump of the key when warm. Did the fresh plugs change my compression ratio by having no carbon or soot on them, ???, I don't think so either. It's obviously fuel related but where with no visable leaks showing. The replacement Bosch ones have the same length probe on the end which if there was a big difference it could technicaly cause a compression change but that ain't happening and they are antiseized and tight, not leaking compression. Do you all have any suggestions, I'm getting to the point on this thing that I'm almost afraid to add air to the tires causing them to get out of balance or something stupid like that ::)
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Speaking about glow plugs what is the difference between a regular Bosch plug and the Duratherm's and where can you get them. Do they last very long and are they fast or slow, do they require their own special relay ???
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AFIK the difference between the regulars and the duratherms is that the duratherms have an integeral thermastat like doohikey.. It keeps them from getting too hot and burning up.. I'm guessing they have a higher end heating element in them as well.. They are fast glow but I've used em with a slow glow relay...
My usual supplier for them is out of business now, but I think Giles stocks them.. Most other places seem to only hve the regular ole bosch I've found..
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Think of them as universal... they will work fast/slow/AAZ afterglow. Most of the Worldpac dealers sell 'em as well... for example:
http://www.autopartsway.com/autoparts2/index.cfm?fetch=part~ID=1992~Volkswagen~Jetta%20Diesel%20Base%201.6%20L4~240808
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You have made the car horny fingering and fiddling it.
Happens all the time with VW's.
I always try to look my worst and wear dirty clothes when I work on one.
Now it probably wants its injectors lapped or something.
Maybe a fuel filter too.
I have found that religious use of PowerService Diesel Kleen in the grey jug keeps mine content without any speriodic hot flash horny symptoms.
Giles does have the Bosch Duraterms and is very fair on the price.
Like Max said - i think most vendors are still trying to clear the shelves of the old style Bosch. Thats about all i could source everywhere i tried.
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I got a set of duratherms that I need to install tomorrow from autohausaz $90 something for the kit with relay. Seemed like a fair price to me.
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I got a set of duratherms that I need to install tomorrow from autohausaz $90 something for the kit with relay. Seemed like a fair price to me.
I just looked at their website this morning doing a search for them and they have them individualy for $9.22 each (P/N 80010} and the fast relay for $24 by itself and they have the kit for $92 and free shipping for orders over $50. The damn kit is about $30 more for some reason. I've looked at other sites and 80010 is the number for the duratherms everywhere from what I've seen. I'm gonna order them inividualy tomorrow and the relay. Evidently they are on sale individualy from their ad but you would think they would reduce the kit price accordingly too.
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That sorta sounds a bit too cheap for a Duraterm.
Sounds more like standard Bosch price ?
Any confirmation on that $9.22 being a Duraterm ?
They are around 13.20 CAD at Giles.
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I got a set of duratherms that I need to install tomorrow from autohausaz $90 something for the kit with relay. Seemed like a fair price to me.
I just looked at their website this morning doing a search for them and they have them individualy for $9.22 each (P/N 80010} and the fast relay for $24 by itself and they have the kit for $92 and free shipping for orders over $50. The damn kit is about $30 more for some reason. I've looked at other sites and 80010 is the number for the duratherms everywhere from what I've seen. I'm gonna order them inividualy tomorrow and the relay. Evidently they are on sale individualy from their ad but you would think they would reduce the kit price accordingly too.
Yeah well, I bought the kit a couple weeks back and that would be just my luck.
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i've been getting duratherm's from lordco , and with the discount through the bodyshop they are around 45.00 for a set of 4 after taxes .
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whats so great about dura therms? ive got bosch's in my rides and have never had a problem, except for the time all 4 of my plugs burnt out on the same day, but they were old and came in the car.
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The problem is that it cranks a long time now even when warm before it starts even when the glow plugs are not even used like 10 min. after I shut it off. Now what the hell is causing that now?
Have you solved your problems starting? Sounds like you still have some air bubbles in the lines. They will clear with running for a while. Also, I'd pimp your GP so you have control over when and if they light :-) I have a light on my dash showing me when they get juice.
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RoR, the DuraTerm is made by Bosch.
Its the new design, next step up in Gplug technology.
Supposed to be even longer lasting (hence name).
And universal as in will work with fast or slow relays.
Have built in thermal protection so they won't let themselves get fried by staying on too long/continually - in event of a malfunction in the Gplug system.
Especially good for guys running manual Gplug systems.
Not that the Bosch's that have been working great in these cars for around 30 years are no good now. Just that these are perhaps more favorable if someone is buying a new set.
I notice now, that in Vince's link they are under $10 each also.
mm hmm............
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I got a set of duratherms that I need to install tomorrow from autohausaz ........
Mystery3, what did the boxes look like and what was part number on them ? As in, did packaging say DuraTerm ?
And has 80010 # been superceded or still # 80010 ?
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That sorta sounds a bit too cheap for a Duraterm.
Sounds more like standard Bosch price ?
Any confirmation on that $9.22 being a Duraterm ?
They are around 13.20 CAD at Giles.
I looked at a lot of ads on the net and it seems like everybody is getting 9 somethig for them now and show 80010 being the number for the IDI's. I just stumbled into Autohaus and saw the kit and individual price and thought the same thing about them being something else instead but I asked when I ordered tonight and he said 80010 is a Duratherm number. From what I'm reading I don't think Bosch maakes the other styles anymore either. Some places have the Duratherms listed cheaper than the older styles also. Are they any better, I have no idea, but I know the Bosch slow glows in my old N/A were in 3 or 4 different heads on that motor and they always worked fine and never burned out. The T/D engine I built had 4 Champions in it's original head that were fine so I just used them instead of pulling the others from the N/A but this weekend I checked and 3 were dead.
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The problem is that it cranks a long time now even when warm before it starts even when the glow plugs are not even used like 10 min. after I shut it off. Now what the hell is causing that now?
Have you solved your problems starting? Sounds like you still have some air bubbles in the lines. They will clear with running for a while. Also, I'd pimp your GP so you have control over when and if they light :-) I have a light on my dash showing me when they get juice.
No, it's still hard to start, actualy worse for some reason. I think it is air in the fuel somewhere also since there doesn't seem to be an excessive amount of smoke when it does finaly catch on. I though after my trip to work today at 75 mph at times if there was any air in it that when I started it this afternoon at 3:30 it would fire right off especialy about 80 degrees, wrong! I get laid off from the Seasonal Park Service job I have on Setp. 30 so I will have more time to mess with it more in depth then. I'd really like to get thhis poblem sorted out first though because I haven't even messed with the T/D pump I rebushed and resealed back in Feb. and have been using the N/A pump all year since then. I'd like to get one mess straightened out before I try to diagnose the no-start on the T/D pump problem. It's still sitting in a box all nice and clean inside and re-bushed and resealed and repainted and full of ATF. It did work originaly but leaked terrible and I haven't messed with it since I couldn't get it to continue to run trying to start the engine after I supposedly fixed the pump. I'm going to do the glow plug PIMPING thing and possibly try to get it intercooled this Winter when I go into my hibernation mode Sept. 30 ;D
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8v of Fury let ATF sit in his leaking Inj Pump for 6 weeks.
Then it went from leaking to pizzing.
Is ATF reco'd safe for storage ?
idunno just asking.
Have used the ATF treatment for 12-24 hours and always reco it to others as well.
And have wondered what other than Diesel Fuel - would be a good storage product ?
Thanks
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motor oil...
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Yeah i had planned on leaving the ATF in for a day or two to get a good clean.. turned in to 5-6 weeks. Now my distributor head pisses fuel lol. damnit :'(
Don't leave ATF in there for any longer then 2 days MAX it will eat all the crap in the pump for sure.. but it will alos eat your 20 year old seals too...
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Yeah i had planned on leaving the ATF in for a day or two to get a good clean.. turned in to 5-6 weeks. Now my distributor head pisses fuel lol. damnit :'(
Don't leave ATF in there for any longer then 2 days MAX it will eat all the crap in the pump for sure.. but it will alos eat your 20 year old seals too...
There shouldnt be anythig in there for the ATF to eat, it was completely dissassembled and cleaned, air blew through everything, new bushings and seals and spun with a drill to see if it shot fuel out the discharge valves which it did very well. It just won't keep running when you let off the key. I put the N/A pump on the engine and hven't messed with it since Winter but is one of my first projects when I get laid-off in 2 weeks. I can't imagine ATF making good seals leak, I don't think they would put it in transmissions if it did.
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there is nothing in a trans to dissolve.. rubber seals will be eaten by the stuff.. im just saying it happened to me, it could happen to you.
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More to the point the seals in a transmission are designed to be soaked in ATF.. The seals in an IP were not.. ALthough short bursts seem to be okay but long term I woudl guess they can;t handle all the detergents in ATF and swell up.. That's what is behind the idea of filling a leaky IP with ATF.. It'll swell the seals enough to help it seal and baby it along..
The other part of prolonged ATF soaking may be that it cleans all the crud out that was keeping the thing from leaking.. Sort of like when you flush a crusty cooling system then everythign starts leakin...
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uh, diesel fuel and gasoline are more of a solvent than trans fluid. if diesel doesnt make the o-rings swell up, trans fluid wont either. ive never heard of transmission fluid eating seals. its not like they make trans seals out of special rubber thats impervious to trans fluid. they make them out of viton i bet anything.
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RoR, you are 100% right.
Gasoline and Diesel are a much better solvent, nothing tackles tough baked on grease like some gasoline :)
I encourage you to leave your IP full of Gasoline for 3-4 weeks.. You wouldn't put diesel in a gasoline car.. simply because its not meant for it.. just like diesel pumps aren't meant to sit with ATF in them.. its simple Quantum Physics really..
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You wouldn't put diesel in a gasoline car..
Back in the days of leaded gas, I would run 33% diesel through my small block chevy. Had a unique smell :-D
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the old days were good weren't they? I wish i was fortunate enough to have lived through them myself :( All I have is old timers stories :)
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It's not so much it's characteristics as a petrolium solvent as it's the detergents that are added to it..
Now if I rmeber all this right from way back in college (I'm sure I'll omit or screw somthing up here) the detergents begin to break down the rubber allowing the petrolium to do it's nasty work.. Back before viton was widley known I believe the materials of choice were fluorinated rubber, and nitrile c.. However instead of breaking down these materials got hard and brittle from the detergents (and heat), just not fast enough to warrent the additional cost at the time
But to head this back on topic, Viton is impervious to darn near anything it seems (and i believe introduced into auto trans's years back).. So your replacement seals should be fine on ATF ROR.. It's those vintage seals that aren;t so happy about it..
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I thought I'd change the fuel and air filters today since I have 2 days off this week and maby see if I can find out what the slow starting problem I've developed lately is. I noticed when I took the fuel filter off it was only about half full and I didn't spill any either, I never saw that before. I put a new one on and since I have the lift pump on it now I just took the in line off the IP and turned the lift pump on to fill the filter and shot the fuel in a coffe can and made sure the IP was full and it fired right up. I also put a clear fuel line from filter to IP to see if I was sucking air and I was amazed at the amount of air it was getting and I have double clamps on each end of the clear line to eliminate that problem. I drove the car and it seemed about the same as before but when I turned the lift pump on the air bubbles would go away but I noticed a leak right behind the filter with the little extra pressure from the pump running. From what I could tell the feed hose was leaking through the rubber someplace but I couldn't pin point it so I made a new one of those too. I ran the lift pump some more and the leak seemed to go away and the bubbles as well with the pump turned off. The car seems much smoother now, probably a combination of the new filters and the leak fixed although it always did run good. At times before I fixed the leaking feed hose there were bubbles over an inch long one right after another and at times 50% fuel going right into the IP, I had no idea I was getting so much air and I can't believe it ran as good as it did with all that air going into it. Doesn't that change the internal pressure of the pump too. I recomend everybody having a clear line to the IP if you don't have one you can actualy see through anymore so when it starts acting up you don't miss-diagnose something. I guess that's why VW put it on there to begin with. I'll see how it starts tomorrow morning after sitting all night, wish me luck :-\
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I thought I'd change the fuel and air filters today since I have 2 days off this week and maby see if I can find out what the slow starting problem I've developed lately is. I noticed when I took the fuel filter off it was only about half full and I didn't spill any either, I never saw that before. I put a new one on and since I have the lift pump on it now I just took the in line off the IP and turned the lift pump on to fill the filter and shot the fuel in a coffe can and made sure the IP was full and it fired right up. I also put a clear fuel line from filter to IP to see if I was sucking air and I was amazed at the amount of air it was getting and I have double clamps on each end of the clear line to eliminate that problem. I drove the car and it seemed about the same as before but when I turned the lift pump on the air bubbles would go away but I noticed a leak right behind the filter with the little extra pressure from the pump running. From what I could tell the feed hose was leaking through the rubber someplace but I couldn't pin point it so I made a new one of those too. I ran the lift pump some more and the leak seemed to go away and the bubbles as well with the pump turned off. The car seems much smoother now, probably a combination of the new filters and the leak fixed although it always did run good. At times before I fixed the leaking feed hose there were bubbles over an inch long one right after another and at times 50% fuel going right into the IP, I had no idea I was getting so much air and I can't believe it ran as good as it did with all that air going into it. Doesn't that change the internal pressure of the pump too. I recomend everybody having a clear line to the IP if you don't have one you can actualy see through anymore so when it starts acting up you don't miss-diagnose something. I guess that's why VW put it on there to begin with. I'll see how it starts tomorrow morning after sitting all night, wish me luck :-\
I tried it this morning about 50 degrees outside. I cycled the G/P's with the advance lever pulled and it started with just a bump of the starter. I learned a lot on this one about getting air in the system. I know I'll never be without a clear fuel line again going to the pump.
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Did you just buy clear tubing from a Hardware store ?
Or source some super duper stuff somewhere ?
All mine are going to get clear supply and return between filter and InjPump. And transparent weedeater line on inj returns. On next maintenance.
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Yay! you got it working, Good for you! ;)
The best way to learn something is to have it rampage your brain for a few days (I find anyways).. because when you've finally figured it out not only did you learn how vital it was to not get air in, you probably learned a bunch of other cool crap you wouldn't have if this didn't happen :D. I get excited when my cars present problems, but that's just me.. usually people kick and scream about it! Just another learning experience, remedied with some quick problem solving ;D
Congrats! (why don't we have a beer emoticon? we need one lol) * hands a beer *
lol
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Did you just buy clear tubing from a Hardware store ?
Or source some super duper stuff somewhere ?
All mine are going to get clear supply and return between filter and InjPump. And transparent weedeater line on inj returns. On next maintenance.
Actualy I got it at Tractor supply, it's like 29 cents per foot. My concern was is it safe for diesel fuel or not, it is rated for chemicals but I don't think it is actualy recomended for fuel. I just wanted to try it to see if I had an air problem and I did. I think I will actualy try to find some clear fuel rated stuff though just to be safe although it will most likely be the same stuff ::)
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The local cat dealer up here sells clear line with a diesel rating.
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Yay! you got it working, Good for you! ;)
The best way to learn something is to have it rampage your brain for a few days (I find anyways).. because when you've finally figured it out not only did you learn how vital it was to not get air in, you probably learned a bunch of other cool crap you wouldn't have if this didn't happen :D. I get excited when my cars present problems, but that's just me.. usually people kick and scream about it! Just another learning experience, remedied with some quick problem solving ;D
Congrats! (why don't we have a beer emoticon? we need one lol) * hands a beer *
lol
I hate to admit it but I think I actualy look forward to problems on them too giving me a chance to diagnose it and buy sme new parts. I especially like watching for the UPS guy to get here with the box of parts so I can tear it open and fondle the new parts and smell the styrofome packing noodle thingies. I gotta get out more ;D I just wish I could get half as interested in doing things on the house that need done as I do with the Rabbit.
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The local cat dealer up here sells clear line with a diesel rating.
I called NAPA and he was out of stock and Advance said they only had it in 1 foot individual peices. I don't know if diesel will hurt this stuff or not over time, they had fuel rated line but it wasn't clear. I do want to get the best stuff I can on it though before it might decide to turn to snot and end up in the pump if not cause a fire too :o
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I ran clear vinyl tubing as return line for the injectors for years because it was thin walled enough to fit on the barbs properly.
never gave me any trouble and never showed signs of weakening/getting eaten by the diesel.
I got it at a local hardware store in the plumbing section.
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I ran clear vinyl tubing as return line for the injectors for years because it was thin walled enough to fit on the barbs properly.
never gave me any trouble and never showed signs of weakening/getting eaten by the diesel.
I got it at a local hardware store in the plumbing section.
That sounds good and like you said, it's not under pressure either either on the feed side and very little on the return side. It looks like the same stuff they use on garden tractor and motorcycle batteries and it is obviously safe with battery acid and this stuff did say it was chemical rated.
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Rabbit TD, do you remember the I.D. size you used on the supply line (return line also if you did it too) ?
I'm looking at stuff called Tygon.
Its same stuff as weed eater fuel line.
I know it will hold up.
Maxfax even uses it with his heated WVO.
Somewhat similar cost as black fuel line.
Most of what I'm finding is translucent yellow though.
I'd rather have pure clear. But........
Here is a pic of a diesel with it installed (pirated from for sale section).
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/cumminsman2010/100_2065.jpg)
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Rabbit TD, do you remember the I.D. size you used on the supply line (return line also if you did it too) ?
I'm looking at stuff called Tygon.
Its same stuff as weed eater fuel line.
I know it will hold up.
Maxfax even uses it with his heated WVO.
Somewhat similar cost as black fuel line.
Most of what I'm finding is translucent yellow though.
I'd rather have pure clear. But........
Here is a pic of a diesel with it installed (pirated from for sale section).
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/cumminsman2010/100_2065.jpg)
The line from filter to pump is 1/4 id. Make sure you get it clamped good too, those little worm screw clamps have a way of not tightening even when they go that small and this tubing isnt the same od. either as regular rubber fuel line is. I used the type clamp that wraps around the line a little and has a screw and nut on it.
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I just thought I'd mention that there's no 'H' in Duraterm. :-*
I'll be damned, there isn't is there :-[ I guess I was reading a post about them and they spelled it with an H which in reality it probably should have refering to something thermal. I guess they are refering to extended life, {Term}
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(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/cumminsman2010/100_2065.jpg)
Nifty Intake :D