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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: stewardc on August 11, 2009, 07:00:45 am
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I have a completely rebuilt AAZ with a Giles pump. Often, at slow speeds I get surging or Jerking which I can only fix be stepping down hard on the throttle. My old 1.6 TD, and an old AAZ in a Jetta, never had this issue, and it has me baffled. I've even replaced all the motor mounts in hopes of eliminating it, but to no avail. A friend also has a modded AAZ in a Rocco with the same issues. He says it is a result of all the modifications, and is a small price to pay for all the power. I agree, but it sure is annoying. I have contacted Giles, so I will keep you all updated on any suggestions.
Does anyone have any ideas or cures for this problem?
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Have you talked to Giles about it?
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Not yet. I haven't been able to get him.
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i think it has to do with the governor and how its modded. after getting the pump changed on my 1.6TD i noticed the same "surging" (more like the car was more jerky?) which wasn't there before with the old (leaky) pump. and the re-sealed pump had the governor mod... but it did have more power, and the power kept going right till the redline, which was cool but scary at times :o ;D
i can't remember if adding the small lift pump helped though... :(
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I am VERY interested to hear any answers to this question. My car has done exactly the same thing since I installed my Giles pump this year. Never did it at all with the stock pump. I don't particularly like it, but it's #3 on my list of driveability issues to resolve, so haven't pestered Giles about it yet. (#1 is cold start issues, #2 is smoke-tuning, in case you were wondering ::))
If anyone has any solutions to the surging, I'm all ears!! (and it's not related to loose IP mounting bolts, either)
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I've gotten hold of Giles and he's thinking it over. I'll share his findings later.
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Changed all filters---still the same and getting worse.
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Interesting happenings - I am getting desperate...it's getting worse. Last tank I added 6 oz. of Power Service (white bottle) instead of the recommended 3 oz. I also added 2 cups of ATF. Immediately, the surging is almost completely gone.
More to follow.
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that is indeed interesting. My surging has remained at about the same level since installing the pump - no better, no worse.
It will be informative to see if your surging stays gone, or returns after you've burned through the tank of fuel with the additives in it.
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I think it may just be a sign with those pumps...Hold it to the floor ;)
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Sounds like you could have injector problems. Have you had them tested lately? (both opening pressures)
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PROBLEM SOLVED !!!!!;D
It is 100% fuel-related. The next tank I put in a different brand of fuel than I normally use, and added 3 oz of Stanadyne, at Gyles suggestion. No more problem. The surge is gone. ;D ;D
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Good for you! Not so good for me :( My problem has persisted through multiple tanks as well as on both diesel and SVO. (and I installed rebuilt TD injectors from Giles when I did the pump).
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Put additive in the fuel to boost the cetane rating. Multiple tanks of crappy fuel will never cure anything. Only Stanadyne for me from now on !
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Is Stanadyne an auto parts store item? Course it still begs the question of why the car ran fine with a stock pump but surges & possibly requires this additive with the performance pump...
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Is Stanadyne an auto parts store item? Course it still begs the question of why the car ran fine with a stock pump but surges & possibly requires this additive with the performance pump...
The operative word is "performance". A performance car needs high-test fuel.
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GM is one of the many vehicle manufactors that recommend/acknowledge the stanadyne additive. You may be able to get it there?
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Jettage, if you can't find Stanadyne - you probably can find PowerService Diesel-Kleen.
AutoZone, AdvanceAuto, and WalMart all stock it.
I never see Stanadyne anywhere around my areas.
Different regions have different offerings.
If you find Diesel-Kleen, get the one in the GREY/GRAY JUG.
It has Slik Dezl fuel lubricant AND Cetane Boost.
I run it in every tankful.
Costs about $1 extra per 10 gallons to use it.
Higher cetane will increase your MPG and HP.
The ATF dose would be good idea right now too - Hey it worked for Stewardc.
It could work for you. Sure as he[[ won't hurt anything.
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Baron, thanks for the suggestion. I did see Stanadyne in the Parts Place catalog, IIRC. I'll look in my local stores to see what may be available here. It may wait a while, though, as the car is now resting while I decide my course of action about the now-leaking head gasket.
I should fix it myself to save the $400 labor, but don't have much time. Hmmmm. Only money right? ::)
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Fix it yourself. If you already know how to do timing it's cake.
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Fix it yourself. If you already know how to do timing it's cake.
Thanks for the vote of confidence ;D. Unfortunately my "to do" list is long and time is short. I still may do it anyway - just have to clear off some other things first...
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Revised update
The surging never went away, it just got much less, but it's still there.
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Fix it yourself. If you already know how to do timing it's cake.
And most importantly you will know it was done right and not have to wonder, did they do this or that? I'd put studs in it while you have it apart if you don't have them yet with the labor cost you save.
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Update
I ran out of Stanadyne and ran a tank of regular diesel through it. It jerked like crazy in the bottom 3 gears at low speeds. Almost drives me crazy.
Just got some new additive, now to see if it makes a difference again.
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One of the local guys just suggested that. He had a TDI do this, and the dealer enrichened the mixture to solve the problem. Next tank I'll try that.
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There isn't any "enriching the mixture" on an unthrottled diesel other than pressing the accelerator harder or less hard. If you try to adjust the mixture, the engine just spins faster or slower.
Residual pressure adjustment can affect the governor and timing and so being slightly out of adjustment (enough that varied fuel viscosity from additives could adjust it) can cause the surging.
IMHO, More fuel at a given throttle setting at a given rpm = enrichment. It's the term used by the VW Master Tech when he described his fix on my TDI Beetle. Some say tomaytoe, some say tomahtoe.
I personally believe it has nothing to do with the viscosity of the fuel, and everything to do with the cetane rating of the fuel. I know that, when I go to another province that has tested-better fuel, there are no issues with my engine, nor were there with my previous TDI.
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where do you get your fuel in NS?
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IMHO, More fuel at a given throttle setting at a given rpm = enrichment.
You can change the amount of fuel for a given pedal position, but you cannot increase the fuel for a given rpm without that rpm increasing. It just doesn't work that way no matter what your "Master VW Tech with 80 years of experience and 17 medals of awesomeness pinned on him by the fuhror himself" happens to say... Glad to hear he was able to fix your TDI.
Some say tomaytoe, some say tomahtoe ;)
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where do you get your fuel in NS?
ESSO or Irving - it doesn't matter because it all comes from the old crappy Esso refinery in Dartmouth.
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I simply said that turning the screw gives more fuel at any given pump throttle setting and RPM. You are saying exactly the same thing, but in different, and slightly confusing, terms.
Enough, OK ???
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Oooookay, buddy. Don't get all excited over this.
I'm done.
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so are you guys smoking a cigarette now? :-*
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so are you guys smoking a cigarette now? :-*
Indeed we are. Handled by private post. :)
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Shucks we missed some hot action it sounds like.
Thanks for keeping the board clean guys :)
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yeh well .... that don't smell like store bought tobacco
you hippies finish off that peace pipe and get back to work already :P
lol
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Hi, was this surging issue ever figured out and /or corrected ??
I 'm having the same issue myself.
Thanks,Mike
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Is it consistent at a certain RPM? (mine is about 1500-1700 and every time in any gear.)
Have you done anything to the pump or is it stock?
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I was curious about this topic since before i got a wonderful Performance Diesel [Giles] pump. After i installed it, i had a bit of hunting, surging, but only slightly, worse at idle running on VO [ which begs the brand of fuel question someone mentioned]. I turned in the fuel screw 1/8 turn and it went away. Personally i would also question fuel quality.
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I've tried all fuels and run additive in every tank. What was an inconvenience has grown into a full fledged annoyance. Additive solved the problem at first, but it steadily got worse. Nothing matters now.
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Maybe too much additive? why only that rpm range I wouldn't know, but a guess.
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After 1 day of driving,sence I un-Modified the Gov intermediate spring(removed shim washers-back to stock) and turning the fuel screw in a bit-the "Bucking" or "Surging" has greatly diminished. It bucks ,while driving a cold engine. With engine up to temp (192 F) It's quite mild. I'll see what this condition is like the rest of the week. If it remains the same,I'll try turning the fuel screw in a Lil bit more.
Remember,I'm running a stock IP,with only Gov Mod and Advance Mod.
I must Honestly report: After removing intermediate spring shims and turning in the fuel screw to compensate-the low and Mid RPM Power has increased dramatically !
(as in my Thread "82 Caddy 1.6NA Low Mid RPM Bucking"
I had followed the WRONG thread while performing the Gov Mod. Oooopsy ! LOL Learn the hard way sometimes.
I'll update at the end of the week, on how she's running.
After several hours of reading through many prior threads' I found than many others have experienced this Bucking or surging. Many people have reported many different causes,of the same basic symptom.
A few were:
Camshaft timing off time just a little bit
IP Static timing retarded
IP rear mount bolt loose
The addition of 3oz Stanadyne per tankfull,was reported to help and if I read correctly,recommended by Giles (in one of the threads I read)
Anyone elses feedback,is welcome.
Thanks ,Mike
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Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you could make it some better. I've tried everything, myself, to no avail.
Anyone else experiencing this be sure to chime in. :)
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I'm bringing this one back from the dead
I'm having a similar problem.
under part throttle while at cruising speed (any gear) between 1500-2000 rpm
I'll get a jerking which becomes more and more violent
I checked the lines, there doesn't seem to be any air bubbles
(I bought a new filter, just to be sure)
although I did notice that the little metal strip that goes from the injection pump area to the dipstick has broken.
Would anyone think that this would be poor pump timing?
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A friend had similar surging on his 1.6NA unmodified pump. He tried to increase the internal pressure, and it didn't help. H finally reasoned that it must be the governor. Turns out the lock-nut on the governor shaft was loose, and the shaft was moving ever so slightly to cause the surging.
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I would think it's a later style pump, it's a 1.6td from a 91 mk2.
I also forgot to mention, it's a giles pump.
I got poking around and I noticed there was no washer, or lock washer on the rear pump bolt. it looked like the bolt head was digging into the rear support for the pump. the washer and lock washer seemed to help a bit (or maybe I shifted the pump while tightening it down, and it was doing it less.
also... while taking a look, the pump to block bracket... it looks like it's missing a bolt, but I cant quite see around the pump
does anyone have a good picture of the pump to block bracket for a mk2? and how many bolts hold it on?
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well, I'm not sure about the pump internals being suspect. I mean, I trust giles' work. But I digress I didn't come here to give praise...
What was a big tip-off to me was that the oil dipstick support was cracked. it's not flimsy tin, it's a tad bit thicker, but it's cracked and leaving the dipstick hanging and just wobbling about.
I'm totally stealing the pictures, but this is what I think I see
(http://tomsebooks.com/images/vw 040.jpg)
in this picture is the injection pump bracket (duh)
I THINK I'm missing one of the rear bolts. when the pump gets to a certain point it resonates and causes all kinds of hell.
the reason why I didn't pick up on it right away - as it got worse and worse would maybe the bolt have walked out, and the dipstick "picked up the slack" as to hold the pump from shaking, and once it broke - all hell broke loose?
it's really hard to get a set of eyes, or a picture of what I see behind my pump but I'll do my best to get a picture..
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My theory is that the low speed surging happens due to an improper transition from the idle spring to the main spring. Under the right circumstances, the governor will keep bouncing back and forth. Adjusting the residual pressure and idle screws should cure that if a cure is possible.
This could very possibly be the truth, although this only started after I got 10,000km on it. I'll dig out a pump diagram and try to find that screw.
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yup... so it's confirmed...
(http://store01.prostores.com/vwparts4sale/catalog/!Bj9ipOQCGk~$(KGrHqQH-DIEs7iGDKlBBLVkSfw5FQ~~_1_9014_1.JPG)
I do not have those two bolts that attach the bracket to the engine block behind/below the pump.
I know they're M8 bolts, and etka says they're 18mm long (I have 20s)... does anyone know the thread pitch?
I'm certain that this is the cause of my surging at cruising speed
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M8-1.25
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Thank you good sir!
I did NOT want to strip or crossthread the holes in the block!
Thank you for verifying this for me!
Etka says: M8x18 + wave washer
but no thread pitch??... that's strange.
my local hardware store had M8x20, but didn't specify what thread pitch either!
I also found out my rear transmission mount bolt wasn't quite torqued down as far as it should be... (with all the talk about mounts and such contributing to the problem)
once I get this fixed I'll report back.
Anyone in Southern Ontario Region have timing tools and can time my diesel for a price?? :)
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If it's any comfort to you I had the exact same problem quite a few years back. One of my IP bracket bolts had fallen out and the other had broken off. Replaced them with a couple grade 10.9s and cured the surging. I can't remember what thread pitch they are but my local hardware store had them so they aren't anything out of the ordinary.
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And to follow up...
I replaced the two bolts underneath and behind the pump. (thanks to a friend who had much smaller and more dexterous hands than mine)
well.. HE did it coz I couldn't manage to do it.
it cured my surging... :)
now I probably need to re-time it....
does anyone recall a thread on using a simple bolt style timing tool? it was a bolt with a like... gauge on it?
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I remember a thread that used a plain M8 bolt with a certain type of thread same one as the bolt in the center of the 4 outlet jets. The smaller bolt in the center of that big hub. You thread in the bolt and back up the cam in the pump and because each 1/6th of the bolt equals a given number of degrees you can convert the number of degrees you turn the bolt in or out to MM of length on the bolt. I have done it and it seems kind of difficult to do with one person as you are always under the car then back up, under the car turning the front crank bolt then up to the IP to adjust the bolt again.
Get a real gauge and keep it handy. A little adjustment goes a long way.
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Yeah, it was an m8 bolt with a thread pitch of 1 thread per mm... or something like that.
I'd really REALLY like to get my own set of timing tools but I'm really brokeass at the moment :(
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No. The only metric fine thread I have found on these cars is the rear axle stub and pressure plate bolts. There are probably more but I haven't had the entire car apart yet.
The bolt is M8-1.25 which is the common or coarse metric thread pitch. If you get the 20mm you will be fine, it won't be too long.
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No. The only metric fine thread I have found on these cars is the rear axle stub and pressure plate bolts. There are probably more but I haven't had the entire car apart yet.
The bolt is M8-1.25 which is the common or coarse metric thread pitch. If you get the 20mm you will be fine, it won't be too long.
The banjo bolt for the turbo oil feed like that comes off the oil filter house/cooler is a M12-1.5, Took me days to find a bolt that size..Living in a small town doesnt help either though :P
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Yeah I forgot about that one. The feed fitting is the same.
Also, I think the injection pump hole for the dial indicator is M8-1.0 but that is a special bolt anyway.
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that is the one I'm referring to. I actually took the bolt out of the injection pump and took it to our local Ace Hardware. The stock a killer amount of metric for some reason. Everything form the common black to stainless. They also have all three pitches in sections. So I just figured to get the correct bolt take it in. I had to search every M8 place till I found the right one. It cost me a whopping 1.36 or something like that. Surely you can afford that! The exact number of degrees per X mm are on this thread somewhere. Or is it in the Hillbilly tuner section on another forum. Moderator would know as he is on both.
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I've had those bolts come loose before,.. I always blue locktite them now.
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that is the one I'm referring to. I actually took the bolt out of the injection pump and took it to our local Ace Hardware. The stock a killer amount of metric for some reason. Everything form the common black to stainless. They also have all three pitches in sections. So I just figured to get the correct bolt take it in. I had to search every M8 place till I found the right one. It cost me a whopping 1.36 or something like that. Surely you can afford that! The exact number of degrees per X mm are on this thread somewhere. Or is it in the Hillbilly tuner section on another forum. Moderator would know as he is on both.
1 turn on the bolt is 1mm travel.. cause its a M8x1.0mm
theres 360 degrees in a circle, that would be a full milimeter.. its easy enough to figure out, but i would never rely on that bolt being perfectly exact. i would just use a dial indicator.. because its almost impossible to figure out your timing with a bolt unless you have that magnetic stick on degree wheel that the guy made with the bolt..
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Many Thanks Roids, I never used the dial indicator. I put in the bolt, marked the 12:00 position on the face with a dark black or blue marker after it was set against the piston once the pulley was backed off of the timing mark. My 81 seems to like the performance setting recommend in the Bentley, just a tad better than a full 360. It gets it pretty close and I fine tune it with the engine running and listen. If you wanted it to be less than 1mm say .88 then you would be looking at .88 * 360 = 317 degrees. Each edge of the bolt is 1/6 of the total or 60 degrees. So it would be five and a bit about a third positions from the high noon mark.