VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: myke_w on July 29, 2009, 06:40:54 am
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So - I know this has been asked before but I figured I'd stir the topic since it's been a while.
Does anybody have any news leads on new prechambers?
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So - I know this has been asked before but I figured I'd stir the topic since it's been a while.
Does anybody have any news leads on new prechambers?
Seams like some enterprising individual might start casting them from HMS-1011 or some other air-melt super alloy ;-) (Ni Cr Co)
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I know I'd be willing to pay $15-$25 each for good new prechambers... less is better, but that's about where my max price has to sit. I would buy plenty, though...
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I know I'd be willing to pay $15-$25 each for good new prechambers... less is better, but that's about where my max price has to sit. I would buy plenty, though...
When I made this type of metal (certified version) it was sold for $100 per pound in 1985. They had a "Renee" (french for reborn I was told) version for much less. The castings and machining (grinding not turning) would be the real cost.
If you could get an accurate 3D CMM of the chambers inside & out, molds could be made easily from stereolithograchic processes
http://www.stereolithography.com/ (http://www.stereolithography.com/)
There are many casting companies out there to do the casting
http://www.thomasnet.com/products/castings-plaster-mold-process-12421202-1.html (http://www.thomasnet.com/products/castings-plaster-mold-process-12421202-1.html)
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I know I'd be willing to pay $15-$25 each for good new prechambers... less is better, but that's about where my max price has to sit. I would buy plenty, though...
When I made this type of metal (certified version) it was sold for $100 per pound in 1985. They had a "Renee" (french for reborn I was told) version for much less. The castings and machining (grinding not turning) would be the real cost.
That mean I'm pinching pennies too tight and need to loosen up on cost? :p
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A club member is a damn fine machinist. Get me prints, and I'll see if his shop can quote a run of them. 100 units? 1000? It's a small shop, but well equipped, so I can't imagine it'll be cheap, but I'll see. He was gonna try and reverse engineer some super nozzles for me, but I've yet to find a NOS unit that he can work from.
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Crazy Question I have!! ;D
When you talk prechambers, what are you refering to? I just removed my head and was told if theirs cracks in the prechambers its junk!
Thanks
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Pre chambers are the round things in this picture below the valves. Has a littel hole in it. Its where the injectors squirt into. all the fuel and air "swirl" around and then get compressed and go boom. ha. they also go by swirl chambers hence the "swirl"
(http://i.ebayimg.com/10/!BUb,M4g!mk~$(KGrHgoH-D8EjlLlzKDlBKNc-!WlRQ~~_1.GIF)
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Thank you for that!
Would that be the same as precups? I've heard that term used also.
Now are the cracks obvious? Where would they be? The only cracks I seen on my head were between the valve seats.
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The terms precups and swirl chambers are somewhat sononymous. In the VW "swirl chamber", the fuel is directed toward the outer wall of the chamber creating a swirling motion. In a "precombusion chamber", the fuel is directed pretty much toward the center of the chamber and doesn't create a distinct swirl. I believe the older IDI Mercedes-Benz engines use this technique.
As for the "precup cracks", they generally go between the valve recesses and the swirl chambers. Sometimes they're in the swirl chamber inserts themselves.
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A club member is a damn fine machinist. Get me prints, and I'll see if his shop can quote a run of them. 100 units? 1000? It's a small shop, but well equipped, so I can't imagine it'll be cheap, but I'll see. He was gonna try and reverse engineer some super nozzles for me, but I've yet to find a NOS unit that he can work from.
If that's the case I'd be glad to send him some good ones to copy?
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I'm pretty sure topline makes their own pre chambers, they make heads,cams, valves all that stuff for these diesel's so I wonder if someone could pull some strings and just buy a bunch of pre chambers? ;)
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Thanks for the tip - I just got off the phone with topline and I may be doing business with them for the chambers. I'll update the thread when I have more info. ;)
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Thanks for the tip - I just got off the phone with topline and I may be doing business with them for the chambers. I'll update the thread when I have more info. ;)
Looking forward to the info :-)
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I'm pretty sure topline makes their own pre chambers, they make heads,cams, valves all that stuff for these diesel's so I wonder if someone could pull some strings and just buy a bunch of pre chambers? ;)
if they make their own heads , could it be possible that the precups only fit their heads and not oem vw heads ?
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They are available through Altrom... retail around $40 each.
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Any luck finding replacement chambers? Couldn't find em on Altrom's site.
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I, too am VERY interested in replacement chambers, more specifically, the aaz chambers. I just got my new head in and need new chambers, as well as everything needed for a complete head rebuild, valves, seals, guides, etc. where can I get this stuff for aaz? maybe one of the euro, or canadian friends will chime in on this one.
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I looked at my TD head yesterday and I have 1 chamber that has cracks across 1 and starting on a second one - of course the center two chambers. I knock the bad one out. I'm going to check a parts store here that supposed to handle Altrom parts to see if i can get a couple.
Would VW still handle these if I can't get them elsewhere?
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I bought my last ones from VW, not that expensive.
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My VW dealer says he can't get them here in Canada.
I talked to Parts Source (My Altrom dealer) and he talked to someone in Altrom, but it's possible they both didn't know what I was talking about even though I brought one along I had taken out. He gave me there account number and password for the website (same # 410400). I'm going to take a look see, because if I can't get them, an new head may be in order. Where's the best place to get a new/rebuilt head if I can't find any pre/swirl chambers?
I've got most of my parts to start the build, but I'd like to know I have a useable head before I start (92 IDI TD into an 96 Golf)!
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I think i could source some but i would have to send the head out to get them done, ya?
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Can they be made from copper? For better thermal transmission? or would that be too soft a material??? I can do copper, and can even make my own if that is the case. 8)
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I would think that copper would be too soft, as would bronze.
the precup is under tremendous thermal and pressure loads, which is why such a resilient material as inconel was chosen.
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oops I thought it was the other way around :o cool you learn something new everyday.
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I would think that copper would be too soft, as would bronze.
the precup is under tremendous thermal and pressure loads, which is why such a resilient material as inconel was chosen.
inconel is a nickel - chrome super alloy - usually 79 % / 19 % that is MUCH stronger than steel and melts in the 2,500 F degree range compared to steel's 1,600 F range. Its yield is in the 55,000 psi range at 1,500 F compared to stainless steel's 20,000 psi or so range at room temp.
So, no comparison to copper.
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So the question remains, can I get new aaz cups? or am I screwed, how the hell does a rebuilder get them? like, say for example, our mutual friend prothe. ;)
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So the question remains, can I get new aaz cups? or am I screwed, how the hell does a rebuilder get them? like, say for example, our mutual friend prothe. ;)
I'd love to take a magnet to the cups in his heads - for some reason I can see the guys in China making a steel based inferior cup. Maybe I'm just paranoid.
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steel or not, he has to get them from somewhere? and they have to be cheap he's only charging a couple pennies for the crap. I' could live with steel ones if it's all I can get. :-[
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New prechamber would be awesome but incase anyone is looking I found these for the aaz:
http://www.altrom.com/partdetails.jsp?id=50 (http://www.altrom.com/partdetails.jsp?id=50)
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thats a pic of a prechamber, but theres no price or anything.
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I have Skype, I'll try calling.
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my aaz parts thread has the answer, any word on the aftermarket cups yet?
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isnt aftermarket anything that is not OEM? thats always what i thought. so technically these ARE after market.
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any word on this? ;)
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what happened to your pre cups? they are such hard material, I did'nt think anything could go wrong with them. I have heard they can get loose in the head but that's a head problem
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I've got one in a TD 1.6 head that is cracked 75% the way around it. (through the center of the opening up around the wall of it)
I bought a cheap replacement head and they are steel as they are magnetic. I might as well throw this head away as it won't last.
1 need to replace this 1 prechamber/swirl chamber and it seems almost impossible to find them. Do 1.6 NA fit TD? I thought I read on here
that they don't?
They are a very hard material, I think as said before a Nickel based alloy.
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all four precups on my aaz head are cracked, probably a magnetic metal. won't know for sure until I get back to the car, It's in Victorville, after a crash that totaled my car. :o I now have a totaled car to worry about. :'(
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all four precups on my aaz head are cracked, probably a magnetic metal. won't know for sure until I get back to the car, It's in Victorville, after a crash that totaled my car. :o I now have a totaled car to worry about. :'(
inconel is VERY magnetic. but what dies it matter? the block is pretty magnetic too.
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I guess the magnetic thing - the only point I was trying to make is that these are not a low alloy steel of some type. They could be a copper/nickel mix of some type that is a hard material as it chewd up a carbide I was using to see how deep the cracks were. I guess all I was saying is they are not steel. It has a marking on the side of it that says CU68 (one other letter I can read CU68X).
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inconel is some sort of nickel-copper steel alloy... SUPER HARD
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The marking on the side of it is (cleaned it off better) CU H1, under that is 068F. Part # perhaps?
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found these guys in the archives, seems some folks have forgotten bout em'
http://www.aluminumheads.com/ (http://www.aluminumheads.com/)
For more info call: 503-230-0852,
Or toll free: 1-800-978-HEAD (4323)
Talk to Wayne or Chuck
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all four precups on my aaz head are cracked, probably a magnetic metal. won't know for sure until I get back to the car, It's in Victorville, after a crash that totaled my car. :o I now have a totaled car to worry about. :'(
inconel is VERY magnetic. but what dies it matter? the block is pretty magnetic too.
No it isn't. Tried mine this morning. Discussions I had with my boss at work about grinding them on our (mag base) surface grinder. Said years back when these were more common he had to make up a steel fixture with set screws to to hold them so they could be ground.
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wtf...
my prechambers out of my 1.5 were magnetic.
cause i got one too close to my sub woofer, and it stuck to it.
and another thing, i just took a precup, and stuck a magnet to it. and it stuck GOOD.
besides, ferrous metal is magnetic, and precups rust, so that tells me there is some sort of iron in there.
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inconel(the generally accepted alloy for the precups) does contain some iron, but not much.
certainly not enough to be magnetic enough to notice, and not enough to rust.
one of its properties, in fact, is resistance to corrosion.
I have never seen a rusted precup, and I recently got a pile of junk heads a guy had sitting in his backyard for years that had rust on the valves, and corrosion on the aluminum so bad that I just threw them away(all the valves seized, and all the nuts rounded from rust)
might be a fair bet that your 1.5 had them replaced with steel ones at some point in its life before you got it.
-Owen
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inconel(the generally accepted alloy for the precups) does contain some iron, but not much.
certainly not enough to be magnetic enough to notice, and not enough to rust.
one of its properties, in fact, is resistance to corrosion.
I have never seen a rusted precup, and I recently got a pile of junk heads a guy had sitting in his backyard for years that had rust on the valves, and corrosion on the aluminum so bad that I just threw them away(all the valves seized, and all the nuts rounded from rust)
might be a fair bet that your 1.5 had them replaced with steel ones at some point in its life before you got it.
-Owen
every one of my 1.5s had the same kind. all magnetic. but the head is still bolted down on my TD engine, so i cant say for sure if those are magnetic. but the ones i have for sure are.
it has a dimple, and a B7 mark, normal OEM marks i think.
and another thing. the engine i pulled this from, was only ran for 80k miles, by one owner. and he never had anything done to the engine. then a lifter commited suicide and wiped out the head. so i knocked the 6 valves and 4 prechambers out of it and trashed the rest. this engine had some sort of weird head gasket i had never seen before. most of these i pull apart have victor or fel pro gaskets in them. but this one was quite a bit different. im thinking it was the stock VW gasket.
maybe 1.5's came with some other sort of material for the precups?
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The one I had I used a rare earth magnet (fairly strong magnet) and had no pull to the precup what-so-ever. This is a 92 1.6 td head.
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like i say, i have no way to test my td cups right now, the head is still on the engine and i dont feel like tearing it down.
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Wikipedia FELLA's
Inconel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel)
at most 10% Iron. not much. But look at all the other elements in there...
Chromium at up to 23% is only slightly less magnetic than Iron.
also, the machining section is a good read.
You might be able to make steel precups if the steel had a high carbon content and was extra hardened, age hardened then work hardned once or twice before it started to warp.
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owen was saying that he thinks someone swapped out my cups for steel ones, so that leads me to believe that they already make them out of steel.
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My link doesn't work?
I'm using iExplorer at work ... that's probably the problem :P
the whole wiki page is a good read. Especially the Uses section.
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if you click the link, it doesnt go anywhere, if you paste it to your browser, it works fine.
fixed.
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it was a good read. opened my eyes to some of its other uses. and it makes sense. ive always wondered what they make jet engine turbines out of. they are basically a big, fire breathing turbo anyway...
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well prothe is selling new heads with magnetic precups, so they have to come from somewhere.
just because it has iron in it does not mean it will be magnetic, it is all about how the alloyed metals interact.
a quick search shows that some inconel is magnetic, and some is not.
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I don't want to get too rapped up in inconel, but the one I have is a brownish, tan color which makes sense due to alloy. Ones I have in a cheap head I bought don't have the brownish color so I'm sure they're steel. Have these steel items like you've (anyone?)had held up fine?
I bought what I think are NA ones off the somba as suggested in this topic from Lloydminister as I'm not far from the guy being in Saskatoon. Hopefully they will fit my good TD head or the cheap one I bought. I'd prefer to use the TD head but it seems where I am no one can get them. I've checked VW and several other repair and engine rebuilders - no luck finding one TD precup!
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I don't want to get too rapped up in inconel, but the one I have is a brownish, tan color which makes sense due to alloy. Ones I have in a cheap head I bought don't have the brownish color so I'm sure they're steel. Have these steel items like you've (anyone?)had held up fine?
I bought what I think are NA ones off the somba as suggested in this topic from Lloydminister as I'm not far from the guy being in Saskatoon. Hopefully they will fit my good TD head or the cheap one I bought. I'd prefer to use the TD head but it seems where I am no one can get them. I've checked VW and several other repair and engine rebuilders - no luck finding one TD precup!
thats because they use the same size precups as 1.5's. 1.6 n/a engines use different ones than td engines. 1.5 precups will fit in a td head, they are the same diameter, but i dont think they are the same volume.
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Any news on new ones yet? (not the aaz ones)
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No intent of a thread jack, but I would still be interested in aaz ones, I kinda need some. And for everyone else, I hope there is some news for their precups as well. ;D
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I bought the ones off the Samba and received them yesterday. They fit my TD head (TG) and they are a hard steel of some type, they are not the same as the ones I removed from my TD head. I will post the part number as they are VW/Audi, I'm not sure where the guy that had them received them from.
These are a bit loose in the head. Do you use a bit of the green loctite and dimple them in place or something else so they don't come out?
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Link to that?
The Samba isn't fun to navigate...
Getting them from Sask is way better then Germany!!!
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Here is a good question, Can some be made out of ceramic, or some kind of composite? This would be cheap and easy to make, even for me. Mold, bake, and viola. Using ones like this, someone could make 1.6 pre's with low comp or 1.5's with low comp, or any variation thereof. Ceramic is very hard, pressure resistant and would facilitate good heat dispersion for fuel ignition better even than inconel, and if they crack oh well, just make a new set with the mold. Will someone other than ROR comment on this idea, I have access to a high temp, kiln and ceramic manufacturing facilities. All I would really need to get is some ceramic material to work with that will work for our particular purpose. Any engineers out in the crowd that know space-age ceramics?
thanks,
Kevin
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I know that I read somewhere, that there was an engineering class at a university in the US that made an an entire engine from different types of ceramics, a WHOLE ENGINE! :o anywho, as most urban legends go the engine was light, cost-effective, strong, and Extremely efficient. One of the Big car manufacturers bought up all of the patents to keep it from the competition, and burned them... or something along those lines. Here is some info about ceramics, sounds like it will fit our puposes, now, we just have to find the right kind. HMMMMMMMM......... You can bet I'm on the Job.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_materials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_materials)
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there are actually lots of ceramic engines in use today.
my dad worked on a few tugboats with ceramic motors in them.
the cool thing about them is that they don't mind getting really hot, so they can operate at ridiculous temperatures making them more efficient.
the issue is ceramic that is high enough grade to survive and not crack, fall apart from the vibration and stress makes them very expensive to manufacture.
a precup would be easier to make work than a whole motor, but would still be a challenge.
oh, and toyota diesels have a 1/4'-ish thick ceramic puck as the crown for their pistons to keep heat transfer down, making piston oil squirters unnecessary.
-Owen
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From http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=22706.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=22706.0)
http://www.eurocartogliani.191.it/EN-FrameBase.htm (http://www.eurocartogliani.191.it/EN-FrameBase.htm)
didn't notice th link in the last few pages. May be some help to someone. Download the catalog and see the motherload of parts.
Cheers
Trev
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That is why the toyota truck on the top gear challenge is darn near indestructable, and kept running even after being sucked out into the english channel.
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http://www.eurocartogliani.191.it/EN-FrameBase.htm (http://www.eurocartogliani.191.it/EN-FrameBase.htm) the link mentioned above
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Ceramics are brittle and do not expand much when hot. Aluminum is soft and expands a lot when hot. Mixing the two sounds problematic. If you could find a ceramic that could take that kind of punishment, it might be easier and more interesting to make a "spacer" that would allow us to put a 1.6 prechamber in a 1.9 head, increasing IDI thermal efficiency and making franken engines practical.
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NKD, what about Gratite? KTM uses them in hit temp high pressure valves.
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The object is to create a fire breathing dragon by way of starting with low static compression and seeing just how far one can go in the boost respect. Using 1.6 N/A chambers could be an alternative, however, this would limit somewhat what one could potentially use boost wise in an aaz head. To make a long story short, trying to make headway. For our intents and purposes, we need to use a readily available, easily useable substance that isn't godly expensive, and meets all of the thermodynamic criteria in the framework setup by the krauts. There might not be a cheap alternative, to using inconel, but because it doesn't meet these criteria, I refuse to believe that we are SOL. I am human, there MUST! be a way. I want it cheap, I want it easy, I want it to work. The brittleness of the ceramic would not matter unless you dropped a bearing, as the piston does not touch the combustion surface. The act of combustion is not violent enough in and of itself to crack or rend the type of ceramic that would be used for this application. I do agree that the aluminum will expand, and the ceramic will not, keeping it in place will prove to be a challenge. Using a machining technique where there is a slight screw design to the precup and grooves set into the hole in which it will be placed would that be enough? I am not a mechanical genius, nor do I claim to have all of the answer, however, I will not give up, and to be 100% honest I think up this stuff at the strangest of times, this ceramic precup idea came to me in the shower.
thanks guys,
Kevin
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http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4325334.html (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4325334.html)
look here, these guys did it, for diesel application specifically, found this today "beginning to think that I really was crazy" What type of ceramic did they use, and can we get some, and I am going to mold and make my own. Anyone else interested will have my unconditional support.
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I've done some bronze casting, molds are easy enough to make. I've used plaster casts and foam. If we made a wooden cup to spec we could make a female mold. And pour the ceramic, let it harden then bake it to finish.
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LET'S DO IT! :D I'm all over this idea 8)
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An example from the patent-
"A powder mixture consisting of 90% by weight of silicon nitride, 5% by weight of yttrium oxide and 5% by weight of aluminum oxide, the mean particle size thereof being 1.1, 1.2 and 0.5 microns, respectively, was prepared and 5% by weight of paraffin was used as a binder. The mixture was molded and sintered and sintering was performed by furnace sintering. The sintering condition was at a temperature 1800° C. for 1 hour in an atmosphere of nitrogen gas."
I don't know where you'd get those materials though. Some A & M universities might be able to help.
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Some of those materials seem like unobtanium, but usually in patents, they don't name the material by its known commercial name. We just have to find the material, and then contact the company that makes it to find a distributor. I'm sure I can convince one of my old college profs to let me use the shop furnace at college. If I include some 3rd year technologists in the project, we can probably get a good discount from the distributors of the material, and get a total mechanical engineering write up on the pre chambers.
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I'm an angry scientist, remember? I have a 150kva x-ray transformer in my garage for Tesla coil experiments, I think that I can manage. I may not be able to use the exact formula as stated in the patent, however, I may have some leads on where to get the materials for a suitable material. I will need some precups to use for the reverse mold, and if all goes well, then I can make multiple, and put up a nice writeup. Everyones problem of finding precups for their respective heads will be a thing of the past. ;D In case anyone was wondering, this is no longer about making new precups, this is about SCIENCE! ;)
Kevin
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you have a Xray transformer in your garage? :P cool. now all you need is an 1800*+ easy bake oven :D
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This is the image that now comes to mind.....
(http://www.caughtoffside.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/mad_scientist.gif)
Be that as it may, I'm down for a new set of precups when this come to fruition :)
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Geez-and I though I was an alchemist cause i can make a furnace running on veggie oil... ;)
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:-[ Tee Hee, I was planning on running a pressurized browns gas setup via Square DC pulse to power a homemade hydrogen furnace, anyone want to melt titanium? ;) I suppose I could see it in the cards for using the same setup for making some VERY AWESOME!!! VERY CUSTOM!!! precups from a composite ceramic :o
To my biggest fans JK,
Kevin
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...sure am glad you're on OUR side, KD. ;)
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There is this really nifty guy from BC named hutchison, he has produced some very interesting phenomena with his high frequency, high voltage experiments, which one day I hope to recreate the effects of. I don't believe that the guy is the next einstein or anything, But I think that there is something to what he is doing, I suspect it has to do with non-control environment, and maveric electrical components "vaccum tubes are likely responsible for some very interesting field effects" Sorry I got off topic but the picture gave me a good laugh, looks like me, just not as bald. ;D
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection)
Neat info, I paid special attention to the air cell chamber section of the article. I think that If we are going to play with fire we should plan on burning more fuel ;D A redesign of the precup is in order since we are looking for replacements anyway why not go big? This will directly effect the maximum rpm capability of the engine, hopefully, in a positive way. The key is the fast moving air concept over direct injection and it's slow moving air. More complete combustion of fuel/air is achieved, and with the right design, I'm sure that we can revolutionize and perhaps revive the indirect injection engine tuning scene. I'm no Einstein, but I do know that together, we can achieve anything, and this is no exception. So how bout it boys? Ceramic composite precups with an improved design perhaps using an air cell chamber design?
Kevin
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found this too:http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=151792&page=45
looks as if there is a slight lip at the bottom of the cup, removing it for production would possibly yield greater area mm2 however this can be compensated for by greater wall thickness, gentlemen, we can do this. Any suggestions for the design concept? I was thinking of using a sort of rifling or screw design to assist in the swirl in the swirl chamber so to speak, and a jet chamber in other words a narrow opening with a small bubble and a big opening on the other end similar to early rocket designs in order to propel the hot air/fuel mixture into the combustion chamber. Thoughts? I was also thinking of using a screw in design, and need to use a common thread pitch so that the fact that composite ceramic doesn't expand like aluminum does when it gets hot so the precup needs to stay in place.
Kevin
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Some good info on machining inconel, perhaps we can make our chambers from the raw alloy? as a substitute for long R&D on the ceramic route.
http://www.mmsonline.com/dp/forums/forum_results.cfm?t_id=2009&f_id=98&pub=MMS (http://www.mmsonline.com/dp/forums/forum_results.cfm?t_id=2009&f_id=98&pub=MMS)
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Gonna give a couple o these guys a call on tues, see what I can see, in at least the inconel direction.
http://morristech.com/ (http://morristech.com/)
http://www.machinistsinc.com/contacts.html (http://www.machinistsinc.com/contacts.html)
there are other inconel machining facilities in N America, and you can bet I'll call them and give them a darned good excuse to manufacture at least a limited production line of precups for all our engines ;)
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028 103 391 M
Cost about £12 in the UK from VW.
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028 103 391 M
Cost about £12 in the UK from VW.
are these gtd or AAZ ???
or are they both the same ???
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yes, do tell, supplier name location? I know it's vw, but..... ::)
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1.9D/TD/TDI part numbers start with 028
1.6D/TD part numbers start with 068.
1.7D part numbers start with 033.
Just the same as part numbers for the other car parts, the first 3 digits tell you what it's from.
155 - MKI Golf Cabriolet.
147 - MKI Golf Caddy (148 being the right hand driver version)
251 - left hand drive t3 panel van..
171 - MKI Golf, left hand drive....
Same with engines, 2.4D 5 cylinder start with 074..
So, that part number is for a 1.9D/TD
I should imagine, using a bit of reverse engineering that the 1.6D/TD part number would be something like 068 103 391 or there abouts.
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Cheers fella ;D
will get the parts monkey @ work to order me some up
it's quite good working for a VW commercial dealer, but
with the "got to have a chassis number!?!?" crew, it can be a f**k'n nightmare to sort parts...
when you've only got engine parts from who knows what
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still working some research on ceramics so I can get a good prototype going, anyone have a working engine to test them on? studs and reuseable head gasket is a must 8)
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you need an engine that barely runs pretty much. because it is going to die, in the name of science!
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I think what my esteemed colleague is trying to say is that there may be a chance of total failure, in which case WCS would be complete engine failure where the ceramic precups explode, or break apart. This would unoubtedly cause fantastic damage to the inside of the motor. If I had a throwaway motor I would undoubtedly do it myself. 8)
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it would be really cool if you could get something that would actually work... i owuld run some ceramic cups.
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Cheers fella ;D
will get the parts monkey @ work to order me some up
it's quite good working for a VW commercial dealer, but
with the "got to have a chassis number!?!?" crew, it can be a f**k'n nightmare to sort parts...
when you've only got engine parts from who knows what
It's not unheard of for the local VW dealer to ring me when they can't find something in ETKA.
Eyes like a *** house rat.
:D
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Still working an angle at Ricardo.
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NKD,
do you know if the 1.6 NA has the same prechambers? If so I may have a donor engine.
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not sure? Not sure where to find out either :'(
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NKD,
do you know if the 1.6 NA has the same prechambers? If so I may have a donor engine
Check this site out
http://www.eurocartogliani.191.it/EN-FrameBase.htm (http://www.eurocartogliani.191.it/EN-FrameBase.htm)
looks like the N/A and TD 1.6 are the same, the 1.9 and 1.5 are both different..
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The ones from altrom are available through NAPA, they have a new contract, and I will be purchasing some soon, I will be the proud owner of a kiln here in short order, and will need some supplies to make some custom precahmbers, firstly I will need the "correct" ceramic material that the "new" prototype chambers will be made from, then I will need the prechambers themselves, I already have some aaz ones, but to be successful I will need at least one example for each engine that people want 1.6, 1.6T, 1.5, I will even do audi5000 diesel and TD, as well as any other custom requests. For those just wanting replacement chambers, I will have batches for just that. I will need a ginea pig as well, someone with a well running engine that is willing to test them on their engine "I would myself, but mine is incomplete as of yet" Any info on the best ceramic material to use would be awesome, or where I can get said material. I hope to provide cheap replaceable chambers that withstand the pressures, temperatures, and increase efficiency as well as reduce emmissions, and if they fall out, they will cause minimal damage to the engine, as well as being chemical and corrosion resistant. In other words a better faster stronger swirl chamber *6million dollar man reference* This will work gentlemen, and now everyone will be able to enjoy a rebuilt head without cracked inconel chambers staring at them.
P.S. I found the kiln info here:
http://www.corvusmoon.com/kiln.htm (http://www.corvusmoon.com/kiln.htm)
Thanks,
Kevin
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oh, and I can make lots of other things from ceramic, I may even make a mold for headers/exhaust manis and make some for use, as well as making a new post that will feature custom ceramic stuffs for everyones viewing pleasure. ;D
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I would love to mill some off the tops of a set of pistons, and cast a ceramic top for them, like the old izuzu diesels.
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oh, and I would love to try out the prechambers!
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I might be in for trying a bunch of ceramic stuff, IF you can convince me it's the right ceramic, and it's affordable. I know the compounds are available, it has been done. F1 engines make extensive use of the stuff. Actually, stuffs, because they use a different ceramic for each type of component. Also, way back about 1989, honda built a mostly ceramic ,750cc i think, bike engine that spun 23000 rpm and was near the automotive goal of adiabatic (not true adiabatic, as in no lost heat, but as in no cooling needed). It used really neat rectangular pistons with rounded corners.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to go track down the ceramics myself right now, but if you seriously need a hand in finding the right compounds, ping me in a couple days, and I may at least be able to get you a couple pointers to get you started. The greatest difficulty will be in getting any of the suppliers to give you the time of day, as it is a big dollar niche market, with application engineers on standby to help any customer with a need/project for the materials, as long as the need is accompanied by a six or seven figure $ demand.
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true, I have looked for some ceramics and found little help for the individual user.
that and apparently the only reason the ceramic piston top worked on the izuzu is because they had a cast iron piston.
the cast iron had a close enough coefficient of expansion to the ceramic to be bonded and not come loose/crack
if ceramic was bonded/cast into an aluminum piston it would just come free/break up on the first heat cycle...
oh well, it was worth a thought anyway...
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I might be in for trying a bunch of ceramic stuff, IF you can convince me it's the right ceramic, and it's affordable. I know the compounds are available, it has been done. F1 engines make extensive use of the stuff. Actually, stuffs, because they use a different ceramic for each type of component. Also, way back about 1989, honda built a mostly ceramic ,750cc i think, bike engine that spun 23000 rpm and was near the automotive goal of adiabatic (not true adiabatic, as in no lost heat, but as in no cooling needed). It used really neat rectangular pistons with rounded corners.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to go track down the ceramics myself right now, but if you seriously need a hand in finding the right compounds, ping me in a couple days, and I may at least be able to get you a couple pointers to get you started. The greatest difficulty will be in getting any of the suppliers to give you the time of day, as it is a big dollar niche market, with application engineers on standby to help any customer with a need/project for the materials, as long as the need is accompanied by a six or seven figure $ demand.
Yeah, it was a great idea, but the problem with a ceramic engine is every part it custom made - no mass production. Also, they don't take kindly to blunt force... That's why jet engines still rely on NiCrCo alloys - they can take a beating without shattering save for a flock of 20 pound geese.
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save for a flock of geese.... LOL ::) ;D I am not looking to build a jet engine here, just some replacement prechambers that will be affordable and efficient. I do not think that there will be any blunt force, as there shouldn't be and contact with the piston. I am thinking of using a protruding pin design to allow for the precups to stay in place. The pin will be pushed into the head via a small hole drilled into the head and precup to hold it in place and prevent it from moving/falling into the combustion chamber. It will likely have a handle or something to allow for easy removal, for head rebuilding puposes.
here is a rudimentary picture... and I mean rudimentary, I am no artist:
(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss298/NintendoKD/my%2080%20rabbit%20diesel/aaz%20head/precup.jpg)
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I will argue that they should be a press in interference fit, just like the stock ones...
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The problem is that the ceramic design comes from toyota, and they used cast iron heads, not aluminum. The worry is that they may fall out because of the metal/aluminum expansion. Since I cannot predict this, I want to be safe rather than sorry, I am the kinda guy that likes to have a contingency plan.
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There's a pretty hard explosion inside the precup and it all has to get out through the little hole.
So if the cup isn't tight in the head it's gonna flop around until it ruins the head or breaks.
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New precups 1.6
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4850608 (http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4850608)
1.9
Call Giles.
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woo hoo! solution :D a big thanks from me.