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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: SolarSteve on June 30, 2009, 01:58:21 pm
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Will turboing a N/A motor kill it? I know the N/A's don't have the piston skirt oil squirters, so how bad would it be?
Also, is an ECO pump the same as a N/A pump? If I turbo my N/A and keep the same pump will it essentially be an ECO?
Thanks
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Lots of people have turbo'd NA's, eco pumps have an 8mm plunger and NA's have 9mm so the NA will be able to pump more.
From what I've gathered here, the piston squirters are to cool the piston, if you keep the EGT's low enough you won't have to worry about it.
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Will it be a problem if I use any turbo larger than a stock ECO turbo?
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You are talking about an N/A 1.6 aren't you? I just built a T/D 1.6 for my Rabbit and ordered a turbocharger with supposedly the next size bigger compressor wheel and it was miserable as far as boost, barely 5 psi. I put the old T3 on it that came on the engine originaly with 432,000 on it and it ran twice as good and I am using an N/A pump at present with it till I get the T/D pump straightenedout. If you are goinnng to drive normaly and want a little more power the stock one is the one in my opinion to use because you can add more fuel later and increase it's boost. If you go to one that's too big you won't have the boost the smaller one does unless you really turn up the fuel, cut your mileage in half and have nothing but smoke and high EGT's. But it will make a bigger whine if that's of importance, to me it's not. I think my stock t3 is actualy a little big but I haven't ran it with the T/D pump other than for just a little bit and took it off for leak repairs. I've seen 10 psi from it maxed out in 4th on a flat road, 7 on a mountain. Stay with a smaller turbo and have more low end power sooner where you need it and you will be a lot happier and especialy since you don't have the other T/D engine parts that are a little more heat resistant but will probably be fine with the smaller turbos. Myself if somebody even gave me a brand new one bigger than a t3 I wouldn't even bother putting it on the car but I'm not looking for 150 horsepower, smoking up the whole highway and 30 mpg either.
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You are talking about an N/A 1.6 aren't you? I just built a T/D 1.6 for my Rabbit and ordered a turbocharger with supposedly the next size bigger compressor wheel and it was miserable as far as boost, barely 5 psi. I put the old T3 on it that came on the engine originaly with 432,000 on it and it ran twice as good and I am using an N/A pump at present with it till I get the T/D pump straightenedout. If you are goinnng to drive normaly and want a little more power the stock one is the one in my opinion to use because you can add more fuel later and increase it's boost. If you go to one that's too big you won't have the boost the smaller one does unless you really turn up the fuel, cut your mileage in half and have nothing but smoke and high EGT's. But it will make a bigger whine if that's of importance, to me it's not. I think my stock t3 is actualy a little big but I haven't ran it with the T/D pump other than for just a little bit and took it off for leak repairs. I've seen 10 psi from it maxed out in 4th on a flat road, 7 on a mountain. Stay with a smaller turbo and have more low end power sooner where you need it and you will be a lot happier and especialy since you don't have the other T/D engine parts that are a little more heat resistant but will probably be fine with the smaller turbos. Myself if somebody even gave me a brand new one bigger than a t3 I wouldn't even bother putting it on the car but I'm not looking for 150 horsepower, smoking up the whole highway and 30 mpg either. I would do a compression check first before I did anything, if it doesn't have at least 400 plus psi I'd be rebuilding the engine first before adding a turbo anyway.
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I am just looking for a little extra power. My drive home takes me up some hills on the highway. I keep the speed at about 70 MPH but even with it floored, going up these hills drops me down to 55 MPH. I have been doing this for 2 years and if I have to I can live with but it sucks. If I have a lot of stuff in the car or extra people it drags down even more on hills.
From the sound of what you said it seems like an ECO turbo will provide what I am looking for. I'm not looking for 150HP, just a little extra to help me maintain 70 MPH up the hills.
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I am just looking for a little extra power. My drive home takes me up some hills on the highway. I keep the speed at about 70 MPH but even with it floored, going up these hills drops me down to 55 MPH. I have been doing this for 2 years and if I have to I can live with but it sucks. If I have a lot of stuff in the car or extra people it drags down even more on hills.
From the sound of what you said it seems like an ECO turbo will provide what I am looking for. I'm not looking for 150HP, just a little extra to help me maintain 70 MPH up the hills.
I know exactly what you mean there, I have 2 mountains to cross everyday and I know how it pulls you down and the smoke that it makes doing this in an N/A. That's another plus with a turbo if it's matched right, they burn a lot cleaner, I mean way cleaner and both my N/A and T/D were both bored and rebuilt. A stock T3 or a K14 is what I would recomend, I'd like to try the K14 if I can find one with the right flange. The mountain is a lot of fun now, even with the N/A pump on it. On the other N/A engine I could maintain 65 if I didn't have to let off for anything which was almost never, you know how that is. With the new T/D engine with the old T3 and N/A pump I can hold 75 under the same conditions and don't have to worry about the fast lane at all or very seldom, there's always someone who has to go 90 or better. You want to make sure you get an EGT gauge and make sure you don't get too high especialy since you don't have the squirters. Since I have one in the car now and my temps are like 1,100 on the mountain and no smoke I've always wondered what they might have been with the N/A just pouring out black smoke on those pulls those other years. But I never had a problem with that engine though and it got 52 mpg on top of it no matter how you drove it. This one only does about 45 but does have the 155 injectors {stock T/D} and the turbo does create a little exhaust restriction at times but it's well worth that little loss im mpg for what you gain. The engine is a lot smoother too and actualy a lot quieter exhaust. Mine is all stock T/D 2 in. with a Magnaflow muffler, don't worry about it being too loud, it won't be even with a $20 glass pack.
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I have a 91 Eco diesel motor in my rabbit truck. It's stock except for a 2 in straight exhaust and an 84 TD injection pump. It blasts up over the hills at 70 mph. ;D
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I turbo'd mine with a new GT15 turbo. Its really small, but does a great job of giving me up to 10 psi (4 - 5 typical at 75 mph), allowed me to haul a large pop-up camper up some rather high hills with the caravan (where I put my 1.6L diesel) loaded with people and stuff, get better mpg, and I have zero smoke (un-burned diesel fuel) except for a few moments at cold startup. I have not touched the N/A IP settings.
(http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/the_arb/100_4391.jpg)
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ilikevwdiesel, how loud over a stock exhaust is it with the 2" straight pipes? Does it ever backfire? What would you say is the power gained with the 2"?
Arb, have you checked your mpg not towing? How heavy is it?
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My 3950 pound car gets about 40 mpg going 65 - 75 mph. This is a rough calulation. I have not done precise tests yet as I still don't have the car's speedo working, so I use my GPS to stay clear of the Law Man.
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ilikevwdiesel, how loud over a stock exhaust is it with the 2" straight pipes? Does it ever backfire? What would you say is the power gained with the 2"?
Arb, have you checked your mpg not towing? How heavy is it?
it's a little loud but nothing like an NA would be...backfire? never
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ilikevwdiesel, how loud over a stock exhaust is it with the 2" straight pipes? Does it ever backfire? What would you say is the power gained with the 2"?
Arb, have you checked your mpg not towing? How heavy is it?
it's a little loud but nothing like an NA would be...backfire? never
My exhaust consists of just a 2.5 downpipe and its not too bad idling, still loud... but get your foot into it ;D
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ilikevwdiesel, how loud over a stock exhaust is it with the 2" straight pipes? Does it ever backfire? What would you say is the power gained with the 2"?
Arb, have you checked your mpg not towing? How heavy is it?
Do you mean afterfire? Backfire = intake, afterfire = exhaust
Can diesels even "backfire" (afterfire)?
Good question. I didn't think it was possible if it was running correctly - maybe a common rail diesel could spray after the exhaust valve is open... but wait, they do that now to clean the DPF :-) and they don't after-fire in a noisy way.
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I'm a pretty long way off from this. I just picked up a spare motor (1.6 N/A)that I plan to rebuild and figure if I am going that far I may as well turbo it. I probably won't even get started on the re-build for months.
How and exactly where do you plumb in a EGT line/gage? Is the a port on the turbo for it? And are K14 turbos readily accessable? Are there different intake/exhaust manifold for different turbos or are they all the same?
Thanks for the info
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I'm a pretty long way off from this. I just picked up a spare motor (1.6 N/A)that I plan to rebuild and figure if I am going that far I may as well turbo it. I probably won't even get started on the re-build for months.
How and exactly where do you plumb in a EGT line/gage? Is the a port on the turbo for it? And are K14 turbos readily accessable? Are there different intake/exhaust manifold for different turbos or are they all the same?
Thanks for the info
I'd like to find out more about the K14 options myself as to what turbos fit what manifolds, I'd like to find one that fits my T3 manifold. I've been advised on here that the K14 would be more suited to my needs as they spool up faster than the T3 ones. That first one is just way too big of a cmpressor that I got called a stage 1 but would probably be fine with the fuel turned up but I don't need all that right now but maby later. I'm still learning the turbo game too but so far it's a fun game but stay away from the urge to get one too big for your needs by all means. Somebody please chime in here about K14's and which ones fit what manifolds and such please. As far as the EGT thermocouple {sensor} you drill a hole and tap it for it's fitting in the turbo exhaust manifold directly under the turbo. Do a search on here, there's tons of information about the EGT gauge and Spruce thermocouple which you sould use when you get to that point. Since the manifold won't be on the car it will be a lot easier to install the fitting at that time, don't put it anywhere but under the turbo.
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Great, thanks for the info.
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As far as the EGT thermocouple {sensor} you drill a hole and tap it for it's fitting in the turbo exhaust manifold directly under the turbo.
Whoa whoa.. lol Put the egt probe in the exhaust manifold before the turbo. or else you will be getting a fals reading that is not only slower to react it will be about 250F cooler. So when you think your safe at 1350 your really at 1600!!
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yea, under the turbo, in the exhaust manifold. BEFORE THE TURBO.. i didnt know they made exhaust manifolds that went on the outlet side of the turbo. i always thought exhaust pipe went there...
basically so everyone can understand..
put your thermo couple as close to the turbo inlet as you can.
the closer to the inlet, the more accurate your temp readings will be.
putting a TC in the exhaust stream after the turbo is basically a waste of time.
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Head, Manifold, Turbo, Down pipe... sorry to cause the confusion but if someone told me below the Turbo I would assume the down pipe.. seeing as how it is below the turbo in the path of the exhaust gases.
Rabbit on Roids there really is no need for you to be a dick about it, it was a simple mistake that anyone could have made judging by how the poster worded it. Lighten up a little man, its a forum for a reason. To Learn, make mistakes, and learn some more.
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Head, Manifold, Turbo, Down pipe... sorry to cause the confusion but if someone told me below the Turbo I would assume the down pipe.. seeing as how it is below the turbo in the path of the exhaust gases.
Rabbit on Roids there really is no need for you to be a dick about it, it was a simple mistake that anyone could have made judging by how the poster worded it. Lighten up a little man, its a forum for a reason. To Learn, make mistakes, and learn some more.
dude, you guys need to learn how to take e-sarcasm. ive had more people call me (profanity removed by moderator) because i was being sarcastic on here. im not trying to rip on you guys, trust me. just poking a little innocent fun from time to time.
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i'll get things back on track here by giving my opinion of turboing an N/A.
DO IT
preferrably with a VNT turbo, but using a GT15 like Arb would be a lot simpler. the GT15 spools up so fast that there shouldn't be any lag, and so should be able to scale any large hills you might encounter in your travels, as long as they are paved ;D some fuel tweaking is probably recommended too.
Arb, what exhaust manifold are you using? are you still using the 'prothe' turbo as well?
some people will tell you to steer clear of using cheap components, but these days its hard to justify spending so much... prothe has a near complete turbo kit for n/a's for $450. all thats needed is to get a flex joint for the downpipe and hook it up to your existing piece, and get the oil lines. i would recommend drilling/tapping the block for the return rather than having to get an oil line AND a special oil pan, but thats just me. i bet there are places where you could get custom lines made up for not too much, or find someone who has them kicking around.
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Yes, my GT15 spools immediately. I get no smoke except a cold start, and then for a moment only. I have not touched the fueling, and have not gotten a Giles pump yet with the TD top on it.
Yes, its a Prothe _new_ turbo. It works well, but look at my project page 8 and you'll see the way it was balanced... http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=15633.105 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=15633.105)
(http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/the_arb/100_4594.jpg)
My manifold was an Audi 5 banger that was supposed to be a VW 4 banger - I cut off one jug and made an adaptor for the GT15 - I had no money then other than unemployment so I made due.
(http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/the_arb/100_4596.jpg)
(http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/the_arb/103_4239.jpg)
(http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/the_arb/103_4326.jpg)
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yea definitely not a pretty way of balancing the turbo... but at least it is balanced. hopefully theres some loctite on that thread.
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yea definitely not a pretty way of balancing the turbo... but at least it is balanced. hopefully theres some loctite on that thread.
I've always wondered how that turbo held up, I saw his picture of that butchered nut last Winter. That's what has always scared me about getting a turbo from the aforementioned { did I spell that word right?}, I was trying to sound inteligent, I wonder if it worked ???
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yea definitely not a pretty way of balancing the turbo... but at least it is balanced. hopefully theres some loctite on that thread.
I've always wondered how that turbo held up, I saw his picture of that butchered nut last Winter. That's what has always scared me about getting a turbo from the aforementioned { did I spell that word right?}, I was trying to sound inteligent, I wonder if it worked ???
I saw that pic too back when it first was posted so I was worried when I bought my vnt center from him a few weeks ago, but the nut hadn't been butchered at all. The balancing looked very good but the fitment was pretty bad. ::) Oh well it fixed my clearance issue.
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yea definitely not a pretty way of balancing the turbo... but at least it is balanced. hopefully theres some loctite on that thread.
I've always wondered how that turbo held up, I saw his picture of that butchered nut last Winter. That's what has always scared me about getting a turbo from the aforementioned { did I spell that word right?}, I was trying to sound inteligent, I wonder if it worked ???
I saw that pic too back when it first was posted so I was worried when I bought my vnt center from him a few weeks ago, but the nut hadn't been butchered at all. The balancing looked very good but the fitment was pretty bad. ::) Oh well it fixed my clearance issue.
Well, its been my daily driver since the spring. The 3950 pound caravan has got to be a bit harder on it than the Rabbit it was designed for. Especially when I towed a pop-up camper 400 miles or so with 2 kayaks and a canoe on the camper :-) So far, no problems with the turbo. I get about 3 psi booth with steady state 70 mph, and up to 10 psi with heavy load at speed.
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yea definitely not a pretty way of balancing the turbo... but at least it is balanced. hopefully theres some loctite on that thread.
I've always wondered how that turbo held up, I saw his picture of that butchered nut last Winter. That's what has always scared me about getting a turbo from the aforementioned { did I spell that word right?}, I was trying to sound inteligent, I wonder if it worked ???
I saw that pic too back when it first was posted so I was worried when I bought my vnt center from him a few weeks ago, but the nut hadn't been butchered at all. The balancing looked very good but the fitment was pretty bad. ::) Oh well it fixed my clearance issue.
Well, its been my daily driver since the spring. The 3950 pound caravan has got to be a bit harder on it than the Rabbit it was designed for. Especially when I towed a pop-up camper 400 miles or so with 2 kayaks and a canoe on the camper :-) So far, no problems with the turbo. I get about 3 psi booth with steady state 70 mph, and up to 10 psi with heavy load at speed.
I'm glad to hear it has held up and has been working so good especially in your van. That nut really scared me when I first saw it,, they must be a lot stronger than they look.
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ilikevwdiesel, how loud over a stock exhaust is it with the 2" straight pipes? Does it ever backfire? What would you say is the power gained with the 2"?
Arb, have you checked your mpg not towing? How heavy is it?
it's a little loud but nothing like an NA would be...backfire? never
Same for me and i run 2.5`to dual 2.5`. quieter than a ricer that`s for sure. Except for the turbo spool... that is fairly loud.