VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: carrizog60 on September 12, 2005, 04:33:56 am
-
whats the best?
performance/reliability.
the 1.9 is an evolution of the 1.6 so i might be better, am i right? :roll:
-
asking because have to find a replacement to my 1.6 (JR)...
-
more displacement is more power potential..
i dont want to go into specifics, but long story short... i blew my old engine, and was looking at two options: 1.6L TD, or 1.9L TD. i chose the 1.6L TD because it is far more readily available, cheaper, parts are easier to find, and the clincher was the crank bolt issue and reliability issues. i have a friend who's family has put 400,000km+ on their diesel golf (he took it back and forth across canada a couple times) and its never given them any problems. so for me, the 1.6L is the reliable and practical choice. the 1.9L will make more power though. depends what your priorities are. (and i'm not saying the 1.9L isnt reliable. the 1.6L just seemed like less hassle and was proven to me)
-
was it a JR or SB?
i want power and reliability... :lol:
i have the KKK24 from the othre engine and bought an i.c. from a seat toledo tdi(110hp) so i have to push a little the engine...
-
the one i put in my rabbit as a replacement was an MF code. 1.6L TD from a 1990 Jetta. it gets the rabbit moving well and its bone stock at the moment other than a stupid K&N filter. with the gearbox i have in it, the car can see 170km/h.
-
never saw MF code in europe..
only codes for gtd were JR, and RA,SB for the later ones.
-
code here for hydraulic head engines (85 and up?) were ME (1.6l na @52 hp) or MF (1.6l td 2 68 hp) 1.9 after 1993
-
Over here (UK t least ) we never had the MF we just carried on with the CY AFAIK
-
we have the JR(60hp) and the SB/RA (80hp)
-
we have the JR(60hp) and the SB/RA (80hp)
JR is 70HP a the other 1.6TD is the ECO version 1V 1.6TD with a small KKK K14 or Garrett T2 with 60hp (without LDA/fuel enrichtment)
-
we have the JR(60hp) and the SB/RA (80hp)
JR is 70HP (at least in the netherlands) and the ECO version 1V 1.6TD with a small KKK K14 of Garrett T2 with 60hp (without LDA/fuel enrichtment)
Ok here in the UK we also had the GTD with SB... and the 1V
I'm a bit anal here with my Quantum passats... The later passat had the intercooled option But that was the transverse engine crossover with no grill front B3? a POS IMO Just a large rabbit (leveret?) :twisted:
-
sorry...yes the JR is 70hp 8)
-
so, any more opinions on 1.9 td?
i can get 1.6 or 1.9 for the same price... choose?
-
My opinion is that the 1.9 is evenly reliable as the 1.6, because it is based on that engine. Some improvements like the serpentinebelt make it even better I think.
-
I'd go with the 1.6 if I were you since the 1.9 is notorious for crankshaft sprocket keyway failure. An extra .3 litres of displacement will hardly make a difference in power.
-
i am going to convert a 1.6D to TD.
will have i.c. and oil cooler to pull the temp a bit down.
is the 1.6D head the same as the gtd?
as soon the car works i will give some news 8)
-
Would the 1.9TD bolt up to say a 1.6D tranny, and what would the deal be on the engine mounts :?:
-
I'd go with the 1.6 if I were you since the 1.9 is notorious for crankshaft sprocket keyway failure. An extra .3 litres of displacement will hardly make a difference in power.
Since I have the same turbo and boostenrichment on my 1.9 as the 1.6 has (KKK K24) I can say that every comparable tuned 1.6 eats my dust ;) 300cc of displacement is a LOT, almost 19%! The faulty crancksprocket is easy to spot (flat bolt head instead of a small bulge) and changed in 15 minutes when the engine is out of the car.
The 1.9 bolts up to any 020, 02A or 02J tranny except the V5/V6 trannys, just like any other VW 4 cyl does.
For the distributionside you need the mount from a mk1 gasser, the holes are already in the engineblock, the others just bolt on from your old engine.
-
The crankshaft sprocket on the 1.9 can still come loose with the new style bolt. If the sprocket does come loose, it will do damage to the crankshaft. If it comes right off, valves will hit pistons.
-
The crankshaft sprocket on the 1.9 can still come loose with the new style bolt. If the sprocket does come loose, it will do damage to the crankshaft. If it comes right off, valves will hit pistons.
If torqued to spec with the OEM bolt? Then you could say that every engine with the same design has that fault... :?
-
Thanks for the heads-up on the crankshaft bolt. I heard of it before and was intending on doing the mod mentioned on vwquebec.ca.
A couple guys there solved that problem. I'll have the engine out of the car anyhow and can do somewhat of a rebuild.
Actually am now leaning on the 1.9TD as donor motor of choice over the 1.6TD. I want to do it right the first time :wink:
Thanks,
Hugh
-
Would the 1.9TD bolt up to say a 1.6D tranny
Yes. My 1.6D tranny also bolted right up to a 1.9 TDI from a 2000 Jetta. Yes I know that's recipe for destruction (for the tranny).
-
The crankshaft sprocket on the 1.9 can still come loose with the new style bolt. If the sprocket does come loose, it will do damage to the crankshaft. If it comes right off, valves will hit pistons.
If torqued to spec with the OEM bolt? Then you could say that every engine with the same design has that fault... :?
Yep
-
ok,so i am going with the 1.6D engine and tranny,so what power can i squeeze reliabily?
the only problem could be overheating?or should i look for others^?
-
reliably? you are adding a turbo to an engine that was never intended to have one, keep that in mind.
first thing i would do is get it setup and running smoothly with the boost turned way down. get an EGT probe hooked up. drive it like that for a while and get a feel for it, work out any issues that may come up. once you are confident with the motor, i'd start turning things up... but keep a close eye on EGT numbers when you are in the boost. the IC will help.
if it were my car i'd just find an MF code 1.6L TD from a jetta and swap it all over. have fun :)
-
I suggest you sell the 1.6D and buy a TD engine.. the 1.6D does not have oilsquirters to cool the pistons. Look what happens when a squirter fails:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1352&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
:!:
-
my mechanic said that i can run boost as a normal engine(gtd) and no problem if tuned up well.
one of it s last creations is a renault clio 1.9d that become 1.9 TD.
1.2 bar and still running fine with no overheating... :?
-
Is parts availability a problem for 1.9 L TDs in the U.S.? Do parts cost alot more than for a 1.6 L TD? Is the difference in power between a 1.6 TD and 1.9 TD that noticable to justify a swap?
-
one of it s last creations is a renault clio 1.9d that become 1.9 TD.
1.2 bar and still running fine with no overheating... :?
Overheating is not the problem.. heat management in the engine is different between the 1.6D and TD. I can't say anything about the renault, could be that those are the same engines apart from the turbo.
But I wish you good luck with the mod :)
-
i want to reply without sounding like i'm starting a pissing match...
just be careful and don't be foolish with your money. 1.6L TDs are not that expensive. by the time you go through the work to make your own TD from a naturally aspirated diesel, you certainly wont be any further ahead than just starting with a 1.6L TD in the first place... and thats best case scenario.
if it is for the learning value, do it! (but it sounds like you are going to have a mechanic do the work). i'd like to try to turbo a NA diesel, and blow the motor sky-high when i pushed it too far, just for the experience (and so i'd have pictures to show you why not to do this :lol: ). but for a daily driver, i'd swap in proven 1.6L TDs from mkIIs all day long before i'd tackle the D>TD project.
either way, good luck. :)
-
In the US 1.6Ds are very plentiful, but genuine 1.6lTDs are quite rare and hand to find. Perhaps the situation is different in canada. Also, in the US 1.9lTDs are nonexistent and must be imported.
Of course, if you can find a 1.6lTD by all means go for it, but I've found that turbo'ing a 1.6D works very well, provided that exhaust gas temperatures are kept in a safe adequately low area. Tuned as such, I can't imagine why a turbo'ed 1.6D wouldn't give as reliable and as long service life as a genuine 1.6lTD. I would advise tuning the motor so that exhaust manifold temps peak 200-300 deg. F or more below stock 1.6lTD peak temperatures. The reason for this (as has been mentioned here already) is that the pistons and valves in the 1.6lNA aren't designed to handle as much heat as the 1.6lTD.
I believe that mechanically, a 1.6lNA (12mm head bolt and TD-crank snouted version, with a TD harmonic balancer pulley added on) is capable is handling the same cylinder pressures and internal forces as a genuine 1.6lTD.
-
Black Tie is 110% right, don't put a turbo on the 1.6D! I have been offered 1.6TD for 350.00 with tranny and pump. The 1.9TD's are harder to find and much more expensive.
I'll keep my present 1.6D until I come across a deal over the winter. I am hoping maybe to find a deal in January after the holidays when everyone is strapped finacially :shock: :roll:
-
the 1.6D rebuilted cost me about 500(+- the same as dollars) and a 1.6td without warranty or known mileage is about 800...
i went 1.6d because the mecanic assured me that it will work right so...
fspGTD: what kind of tune is done to keep the temp down?
it will be intercooled(seat toledo tdi 110hp)and will have the 1.6td oil cooler and will be running a kkk24.
how to tune then?
how high can i turn the boost?
-
ah, the 1.6D came with a 4T gearbox and new clutch... 8)
-
Where are you from (since your talking in )? a complete 1.6TD can be had for about 150-250 euros depening mileage WITH warranty
The gearbox/clutch can be used on the TD.
I suggest you take a K14/T2 turbo and stay below 0.7bar and keep the fuel down. It will be just like a ECO 1V, no boost enrichment and just a bit more HP and beter fuel economy.
-
i am from portugal...prices are 750 up... :evil:
-
And in Spain too? 500 could be worth a drive :)
-
in spain, a company named VEGE sold one almost new for 1900 plus the old engine... :roll:
-
1.6D dosn't have oil squirters either does it?
-
no it does not.
-
Hey guys, looks like I found me a '97 Jetta 1.9TD nice and rusty with broken bumpers and all. Will let you all know as the week goes on.
Finally found my do :wink: ner car!
-
To see how hot things are actually getting, install an exhaust gas temperature gauge / pyrometer, and install it pre-turbine. Stock 1.6lTD peaks at 1500 deg. F pre-turbine, and you'll want to have yours peak considerably cooler. I've had the VNT 1.6D heated up to 1400 deg. F before (that was tested before it was intercooled), and although it survived, I'd recommend taking a conservative approach to tuning yours and staying well below that. If you use one of the larger, lower backpressure 1.6lTD turbos (either the Garret TA0304B or the KKK K24), combined with an efficient intercooler and a large diameter exhaust system from turbine outlet on back with a free flowing muffler, your exhaust gas temps won't be able to get anywhere near the 1500 deg. F that the 1.6lTD can see stock, assuming you aren't doing any really wild fueling mods. It's probably best to leave the really wild fueling mods to those motors with the oil squirters! :wink:
-
i am using the kkk24 but free flow exhaust is not an option.
in portugal inspections are very conservatives... :x
can i run, say, 1bar?
this will be a car for daily driver, not highway use...
-
Running additional boost is actually adviseable as long as the turbo is still working in an efficient area, as it will cool EGTs additionally with an intercooler and while conservative fueling. The Garrett T3 or KKK K24 should maintain high efficiency on a 1.6lTD, to 14 psi or perhaps slightly more. I measured post-compressor intake temps of 200 deg. F at 14psi with a Garrett T3 on a 1.6lTD.
The motor is going to run hotter with the stock restrictive exhaust, so plan on keeping the fueling levels extra conservative. Also if you want to verify for yourself that the peak EGTs are safe, do use a pyrometer and mount it pre-turbine.
Also, some kind of oil cooler is a very good idea, if not a necessity with a turbo addition.
Hope this helps, and good luck!
-
To see how hot things are actually getting, install an exhaust gas temperature gauge / pyrometer, and install it pre-turbine. Stock 1.6lTD peaks at 1500 deg. F pre-turbine, and you'll want to have yours peak considerably cooler. I've had the VNT 1.6D heated up to 1400 deg. F before (that was tested before it was intercooled), and although it survived, I'd recommend taking a conservative approach to tuning yours and staying well below that.
I've had a lot of experience with turbo'd engines without oil squirters, and 1350 deg. F (730 deg. C) is about as hot as you want them to get. If you add the turbo but leave the fueling alone, you will get a nice little performcnce boost with virtually no rise in EGT.
-
Other threads discussing turboing a 1.6lNA:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1938
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1699
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=556
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=243
-
Hum...unburned fuel rises temperature right?
in one topic from the ones that fspgtd(the 3 one) i think that raising the boost will kept egt down right?
my english is not the best so correct me if i understand wrong :?
-
Valter, don't worry about your English. Our Portugese is non-existent! :wink:
Here are some simple rules for diesels...
1) The exhaust gas temperature (EGT) for a diesel is proportional to the amount of fuel injected. More fuel means higher temps.
2) Adding boost alone will not increase temps very much. Intercooling the intake air (after the turbo and before the cylinder) can cool off the air enough to actually lower EGTs.
3) Adding boost does allow more fuel to be burned efficiently. Adding more boost AND more fuel quickly rises EGT. This is where you need an EGT gauge.
Hope that helps!
-
so, how high can i out the boost without increasing the fuel?
isn t dangerous the engine running lean?
-
How high depends on a lot of figures.. so I suggest you buy an EGT meter and then you know at wat temperatures your running.
A Diesel engine runs always lean, in normal operation from 1:20 to even 1:80.
-
so, how high can i out the boost without increasing the fuel?
isn t dangerous the engine running lean?
VW sold the 1.6TD Eco in the USA which had a turbo, but did not increase fuel with boost. I think its maximum boost was about 1 bar.
Unlike petrol engines, you don't have to worry about running a diesel lean. As Maarten says, they are very lean anyway. Also, the leaner one runs a diesel the cooler it runs, not hotter like a petrol engine.
-
so i can up the boost to 1 bar without moving the fuel right?
new to diesel...
-
Stock boost is between 0,5bar and 0,8bar on all 1.6 and 1.6 TDs
-
Valter, your engine will only produce boost based on the size of the turbo and the amount of fuel injected. There is no "turning up the boost" on a diesel engine.
The Eco used a very small turbo (K14, I think). If you can find one of these, or another very small turbo, you might get a bar of boost from it. You will have to experiment with it to see what it will do.
-
i have a kkk24.
isn΄t the boost regulated at the bov?
so, only turning the fuel the boost goes up?damn! :x
-
Sorry Valter...I didn't know what engine you have, since there is no info in your profile. Can you tell us more about the car/engine you are asking about? (Or did I miss it above?)
Anyway, with the K24 there are numerous things you can do to up the boost. You can block off the BOV, like this:
(http://home.earthlink.net/~rps1976/Images/Diesel/BOV-cap.jpg)
Or, if your officials won't permit that, you can be more clever, like this:
(http://home.earthlink.net/~rps1976/Images/Diesel/BOV2.jpg)
The green thing is just the plastic cap from a paint can...anything to block the action of the BOV - yet it cannot be seen from the outside. :wink:
After that add a manual boost controller to the line from the turbo to the wastegate. This delays the point at which the wastegate opens. Free boost! :D
-
When you close the wategate and remove the BOV the boost will go up a bit, but serious boost comes with more fuel 8)
The BOV-hole in the intakemanifold can be sealed off with a plug like this:
http://shop.vwcaddyforum.nl/index.php?cPath=40_106_108
But since you have a 1.6D engine you don't have a BOV hole and I suggest you keep the pressure low.
-
yes i have a 1.6D but it will be builted with 1.6gtd(JR)bolt on pieces.
i think intake manifold wiil be the one of 1.6gtd :?:
-
Thanks for the heads-up on the crankshaft bolt. I heard of it before and was intending on doing the mod mentioned on vwquebec.ca.
A couple guys there solved that problem.
What was their fix? I tried finding it on the site but my French leaves a lot to be desired.
-
I'll do the research over the weekend and will give you the link.
As for my 1.9TD I'll be taking it apart and will be doing the machine work myself. Probably get the crankshaft microwelded with 4130 rod and then EDM a keyway / spine, whatever it takes to get 500,000 km's out of it :shock:
I'm slow, I take my time, but I do it right the first time :lol: :wink:
Later,
Hugh
This may work :
www.vwquebec.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1270&start=0
-
Thanks for the link. So they did the TDi sprocket thing as well. Wasn't sure if it would be that or something else.
Good luck with yours!