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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on June 15, 2009, 11:23:47 am
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From a standstill, If I try to shift fast from 1st to 2nd gear, and I don't hit it just right, I get a "crunch" on the gears. What's wrong and what to fix?
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The syncro's are worn out, the fix means a tranny rebuild, the other fix is shift slightly slower and it won't happen.
My brothers jetta has done that since he bought it in '97, tranny still works it just sounds bad when it's shafted fast.
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I wonder if Redline MTL, a premium synthetic gear oil, would help with worn synchros? Anyone has it in their gear box?
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i dont think any gear oil will fix the problem... you can always try power shifting by keeping the rpm's up.
i had the same problem in my jetta, and i found that if i held the shifter right near 2nd gear for 1/2 a second, it would go right in without a fight or grind. but of course that really kills acceleration :(
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There is only one fix...trust me on this. Go to your local GM dealer and get 2 liters of GM Synchromesh Transmission Fluid. Accept NO other labelling or name. It's about $6 a liter and will fix your crunch, I guarantee.
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Stewardc, hey that sounds great! Where do you buy it for $6 a liter? I just called GM and they want $14 a quart! 2 quats is 1.89 liters meaning I have to buy 3 quarts to make 2 liters (4.2 pints).
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I got it at the local chevy dealer.
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You read so much stuff about anything but GL4 being bad for the older style 020 transmissions because of the phosphor or whatever in the GL5 is supposed to be corrosive to the brass synchronizers. My question is what are the synchroniser rings made out of on the later vehicles. I've never had one of the newer ones apart.
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stewardc, are you running the GM friction modified in an 020 and for how long? Anyone else using it in the 020? Any cases of confirmed damage using it? How long does it take for the damage to occur and how? I called Chevy and it's $14 a quart also.
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I'd try some Mobil-1 full synthetic 80w-90 EP gear lube before I spend $14 a quart ;-)
There is another easy method - your shifting. Before there were synchro trans, everyone had to "double clutch" - that is press clutch, shift into neutral, release clutch, press clutch, shift into next gear.
Another technique is the match the engine rpm to the gear / speed your are shifting into. If you are matched, you do not even need to clutch. If you are in tune with your car, you'll get the feel for it.
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What about this limited slip fish oil additive for rear ends? Does it increase or decrease friction? Will it help with the crunch?
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I'd try some Mobil-1 full synthetic 80w-90 EP gear lube before I spend $14 a quart ;-)
I've found Mobil 1 synthetic to be particularly bad in this case. It actually exacerbates the worn synchro issue and can take a tranny that doesn't crunch on most other lubes and make it crunch. Not the correct friction profile to allow mildly worn synchros to work at all.
Wow !! I didn't know that. I've never had to put lube in my vw trans
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stewardc, are you running the GM friction modified in an 020 and for how long? Anyone else using it in the 020? Any cases of confirmed damage using it? How long does it take for the damage to occur and how? I called Chevy and it's $14 a quart also.
I've been running the STF for over 2 years in an 020. No damage at all.
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stewardc, are you running the GM friction modified in an 020 and for how long? Anyone else using it in the 020? Any cases of confirmed damage using it? How long does it take for the damage to occur and how? I called Chevy and it's $14 a quart also.
I've been running the STF for over 2 years in an 020. No damage at all.
That's encouraging. Why is that stuff so much cheaper up there? $14 a quart is a rep off! Is there a generic like drugs? ;D
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Make sure that exact wording is on the label. They have about 15 different fluids and may try to pass of a more expensive one as the correct one.
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Not many of those dealers here. I'll also have to continue holding it just before 2nd for a 1/2 second then fully engage 2nd as this 'reduces' crunching.
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I can ship it cross the pond if you want.
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stewardc, can you verify the GM p/n 12377916 for the GM synchromesh transmission fluid ?
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I ffeel the only way to fix a worn synchronizer problem is with a new one. I've used Royal Purple and Amsoil MTL in these 020's and the standard 90wt. GL4. If the gear crunched a little an oil change never helped or made it worse either but the synthetics do really make them shift good if there are no other problems. But if you have a high mileage trans that's never had new seals put in it's almost guaranteed to leak as the synthetc is so much thinner. If you have one that leaks pretty bad after you put in a synthetic and do a lot of high speed highway driving and don't check the level often to keep it full you are almost guaranteed to have 5th gear go out and eat the pinion gear also. Been there, done that. And it's all on Broke VW's website exactly like he says. It's a good place to visit if you decide to pull the trans apart. I'd still like to know what synchro rings are made of if it's not brass anymore, aluminum?
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I ffeel the only way to fix a worn synchronizer problem is with a new one. I've used Royal Purple and Amsoil MTL in these 020's and the standard 90wt. GL4. If the gear crunched a little an oil change never helped or made it worse either but the synthetics do really make them shift good if there are no other problems. But if you have a high mileage trans that's never had new seals put in it's almost guaranteed to leak as the synthetc is so much thinner. If you have one that leaks pretty bad after you put in a synthetic and do a lot of high speed highway driving and don't check the level often to keep it full you are almost guaranteed to have 5th gear go out and eat the pinion gear also. Been there, done that. And it's all on Broke VW's website exactly like he says. It's a good place to visit if you decide to pull the trans apart. I'd still like to know what synchro rings are made of if it's not brass anymore, aluminum?
the synchro's are made out of brass iirc. heat is the number one killer. for racing, most guys take out the synchro's as can free up about a couple ponies (no joke) from the extra spinning gears. just shift like they do hehe :D and might as well just rip all the synchro's up, and drive it like a pro 8)
me personally i like the idea of lubro moly (liqui moly?) with its moly additive for reduced friction. every little bit helps :) i wonder what gm synchromesh has in it help worn synchro's get friction. can't be good for the rest of the transmission? i don't personally trust anything with the name GM in it... ::)
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I ffeel the only way to fix a worn synchronizer problem is with a new one. I've used Royal Purple and Amsoil MTL in these 020's and the standard 90wt. GL4. If the gear crunched a little an oil change never helped or made it worse either but the synthetics do really make them shift good if there are no other problems. But if you have a high mileage trans that's never had new seals put in it's almost guaranteed to leak as the synthetc is so much thinner. If you have one that leaks pretty bad after you put in a synthetic and do a lot of high speed highway driving and don't check the level often to keep it full you are almost guaranteed to have 5th gear go out and eat the pinion gear also. Been there, done that. And it's all on Broke VW's website exactly like he says. It's a good place to visit if you decide to pull the trans apart. I'd still like to know what synchro rings are made of if it's not brass anymore, aluminum?
the synchro's are made out of brass iirc. heat is the number one killer. for racing, most guys take out the synchro's as can free up about a couple ponies (no joke) from the extra spinning gears. just shift like they do hehe :D and might as well just rip all the synchro's up, and drive it like a pro 8)
me personally i like the idea of lubro moly (liqui moly?) with its moly additive for reduced friction. every little bit helps :) i wonder what gm synchromesh has in it help worn synchro's get friction. can't be good for the rest of the transmission? i don't personally trust anything with the name GM in it... ::)o
Yes I know all synchro rings I've ever seen are brass. The thing I don't understand is that there is so much information out there even from Redline and Amsoil that GL5 in a car with brass synchros is supposed to be corrosive to the synchros. If that is true, which there must be something to it or Redline and Amsoil wouldn't refer to it either, then what are newer synchros made from? If they are still made out of brass then what good is GL5 period ??? P.S. It's almost impossible to find GL4 in a parts store anymore today too.
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i came across a thread from TDIclub.com and bleached bora said that GL5 is fine for use on the newer style transmissions, but there are some older ones that won't work. amid the confusion i seem to recall that if you have a 1996+ transmission (non green case housing), the GL5 is fine.
https://www.boraparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=67_69&products_id=50
lubro moly is the best gear oil to use.
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I put in Redline MTL a few weeks ago and it really helped with the crunch. As long as I don't speed shift from 1st to 2nd, it does not crunch anymore like it used to.
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GM synchromesh fluid isnt going to be bad for an 020. what materians do you think a chevy trans's are made from? the same thing vw trannies have in them. brass synchros, aluminum case, steel gears and bearings.
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ROR, anything is better than what was in there. It was cruching bad! I just happened to have 2 quarts of roughly 10 year old Redline MTL laying around so I put that in to see what it'd do. It did gooood. lol
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I believe Penzoil Syncromesh is the same stuff in a different bottle from the GM Synchromesh. Autozone about $6 US per litre.
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X2 on the Mobil 1 insights by Andrew.
I've had crunchers before, and I though the synthetic would help. It made it worse.
Regarding Synchromesh: I've tried it. I wouldn't say it's a miracle cure, but it does make the crunching less pronounced. If you speed-shift, you'll still hear/feel it.
I only really notice the crunching in the winter time. I think if you get it in warm weather, your synchros are really toasted. I just pause a milisecond before shifting when the car is cold. No grinding. Once the car warms up, the grinding disappears.
As far as long-term results on the sunchromesh: I sold a car to a guy about 1.5 years ago. I put in the synchromesh about 5 months before I sold it. He's still driving it no problem.
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I have the crunch from 1st to 2nd on my 020. I'm looking into getting thr GM fluid, however you all say that you get crunches when the box is cold.
In my case second seems to slip in easier when cold then when its hot its definately eaier to crunch. I always hold it for a second or so before I put the gear in but on steep hills this can be a problem if I have stopped.
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ok, so, the oil on the syncro is what makes the friction to slow the syncro. if your oil isnt thick enough, it wont slow the syncro enough, causing a crunch. put thicker gear oil in it. or just change it first and see if it fixes anything. thicker oil has helped alot of my friends out who have questionable transmissions. but i think the syncromesh fluid is your best bet.
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Redline MTL worked well, Castrol also do a synthetic gear lube, SMX-S which is what I use at the moment. Both are GL4, the sulphur in GL5 will shag the brass in the gearbox. It is definately worth trying different oil. 8) Slower shifting won't harm either.
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Redline MTL worked well, Castrol also do a synthetic gear lube, SMX-S which is what I use at the moment. Both are GL4, the sulphur in GL5 will shag the brass in the gearbox. It is definately worth trying different oil. 8) Slower shifting won't harm either.
I am using Amsoil MTL which is claimed by them to be safe for brass synchros which I have yet to find out what other materil they have been made from since then if there actualy has been a change made. I put all new seals in it first though so I've had no leaks. As far as GL4 Non Synhetic goes though a person is very lucky to find any. I'm not sure I believe all the stuff about they say about the sulphur in the GL5 causing damage to the synchros either, I wouldn't be afraid to make a bet that all started after a bunch of people said that after they put in GL5 synthetic and after abusing the transmission for a year or 2, ruined the synchros naturaly and blamed it on the oil. Does anyone know what the synchro rings are made from now just out of curiosity..
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i thought all syncros were brass too.
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I'm not sure I believe all the stuff about they say about the sulphur in the GL5 causing damage to the synchros either, I wouldn't be afraid to make a bet that all started after a bunch of people said that after they put in GL5 synthetic and after abusing the transmission for a year or 2, ruined the synchros naturaly and blamed it on the oil. Does anyone know what the synchro rings are made from now just out of curiosity..
I would be delighted to be wrong, and I too have wondered what that modern yellow brass like metal is in GL-5 gearboxes. ;)
Anyway, why worry? VW's suicide rivets will likely get there first! :P
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8) Wow! I've survived to be a veteran! 8)
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Anyway, why worry? VW's suicide rivets will likely get there first! :P
lmao, its sad, but he speaks the truth. if you dont shift it like an idiot, its gonna be rivets for sure.
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The 2nd gear grind is common in the 020 Tranny. I think my Scirocco is the only one that i've had that doesn't do it.
I've heard of using GM synchromesh, but have never tried it.
I've learned from experience that an 020 can run forever with the 2nd gear grind, so I just live with it.
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The 2nd gear grind is common in the 020 Tranny. I think my Scirocco is the only one that i've had that doesn't do it.
I've heard of using GM synchromesh, but have never tried it.
I've learned from experience that an 020 can run forever with the 2nd gear grind, so I just live with it.
Yeah my 81 Rabbits last 5 speed was like that too, you just had to hold it there for a second for it to drop in when it got ready, after a whle you just don't even notice it and it never seemed to get any worse. I have tried a lot of different oils, Royal Purple synthetic, Redline, different non synthetics and now I'm using Amsoil GL4 rated. Basicly all I've seen is the synthetics shift a lot easier when it's cold because it's a lot thinner to begin with. I also think they are a little smoother too ater it's warmed up also but if you have a bad synchronizer I don't think anything is going to make it go away other than a new synchronizer. As far as oil viscosities and different weights supposedly not being rated high enough to protect the gears is concerned I think there are a lot of myths and marketing hype going on there too. Ford used and still may be for all I know, ATF in their truck manual transmissions as well as the transfer case for years and it obviously doesn't harm anything. Is a Ford gear different than anybody else's gear or synchronizer either, I don't think so. I like the synthetics as far as that goes but be ready for leaks if you put it in an old trans that's never had the seals changed recently. I will say though that switching to a synthetic actualy does help your mileage a little, I know it has mine with the Amsoil. I never really checked it with the other synthetics but I imagine they were similar. Amsoil makes a synthetic for just about every need. At the Nat. Pk. Service we use their 100-1 two stroke oil, you actualy mix it in the 100-1 ratio for any 2 stroke engine. When I first heard that I thought, "these engines aren't gonna last too long", but it's some of the best stuff I've ever seen. At 6 1/2 ounces to 5 gallons, a quart wold last you around the house for 2 lifetimes. You'd loose or spill the stuff before you used half of it ;D
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Just put some saw dust in it! ;D Nah just kidding, I think they did that with old tractors but they had different style gears. I think thicker oil would be worth trying even if it hurts the brass synchros. The way I see it, if they're going out any way, you might as well try it. ;)
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Just put some saw dust in it! ;D Nah just kidding, I think they did that with old tractors but they had different style gears. I think thicker oil would be worth trying even if it hurts the brass synchros. The way I see it, if they're going out any way, you might as well try it. ;)
Exactly right and slow down any leaks at the same time too. And I really don't think the GL 5 stuff would hurt a thing eiher. Somebody probably noticed in a chemical analysis somewhere along the line that GL5 had something that wasn't good for brass which we still don't know what else synchros are made of anyhow but even if it's true it's probably such a small percentage it wouldn't hurt a thing. Mercury is supposed to be deadly to humans if ingested but it's been in dental fillings forever, just a small amount that don't amount to a pinch of owl *** ;D