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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: boosted_diesel_84 on June 05, 2009, 11:31:53 pm
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so, i had an intermittent problem with my 84 TD jetta not wanting to start, no cranking at all, when this first started, it was a rarity and if u let it sit for a few minutes, it would fire up, then it got worse, i had to use a screw driver across the starter to get me home one day, car has new 1000CCA battery, new starter and alt. new ignition switch, new battery cables, all grounds cleaned up and greased, battery was just charged and tested good, when key is in on position, everything works, headlights, fan, etc... when moved to crank position, i lose power everywhere, no headlights, all interior lights go off, but my battery stays at constant 12v, when checked with DVOM all relays click, no fuses blown, and even when i bridge my starter with a screw driver, it clicks the first few times it bridged, but no crank,then no clicking at all, but i can see it arching, and i have 12v there, what is going on? just changed starter today with no difference and swapped battery, no change, i kno it has to be a short somewhere or a bad relay, but can u guys give me any direction to go? thanks!
also, i can push start the car fine, and it runs fine, just wont restart if its shut off,
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Hmmm you've covered a lot of the bases. There's no additional relay at work here, other than the starter solenoid itself, and the screwdriver bypass eliminates the entire ignition switch circuit as a suspect.
When you say "bridged" you're referring to bridging between the big lug that goes to the battery and the spade lug from the ignition cct?
When you replaced the starter did you replace the starter bushing embedded in the transmission?
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yes, from the battery + on starter to solonoid, just sparks, no i didnt change the bushing, also my battery was relocated in the trunk, and i have a 2 gauge wire relocation kit from Summit racing, and it worked fine all winter, so i dont think thats an issue,
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When you jump the starter (or turn the key for that matter) does it sound like the starter tries to engage and stalls, or is there no sound at all from the starter?
battery reloc kit adds an extra dimension... have you got a set of booster cables? If so, you could pull the battery and use the jumper cables to temporarily hook it up directly to a good ground and the starter positive stud. If it still fails the screwdriver test you've eliminated everything and it's gotta be another bum starter or excessive wear on the bushing is finally catching up to you. If it works, you know to double-check your relocation kit.
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starter tries to engage first 3 time i tap power to it, but never turns over, then nothing but sparking and i can hear a relay click, key does nothing in start position, no click from starterat all but relays do click, also, sometimes, my idiot lights all come on when key is on, and go off when in start, other times, no lights at all when key is on, and sometimes just dim, but still have over 12v at battery, i already tried jumping it from anohter running vehicle, no change, what would the bushing do in terms of not cranking? ive neer had one go bad before,
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i didnt try, but if i push start, it fires right up, and there is no load on battery when its in start position or jumpered on starter.
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not to argue or sound like a know it all, but i just dont think its the starter, the one on it was only 5 months old, then i replaced it with a brand new one, and same thing happined, but to be safe i will pull it off and bench test it. any other ideas? it just seems like there is a short in the wiring from the ignition switch to the starter, and is causing everything to lose power, i just checked, even with key start position, i am not getting any power to the soloniod on starter from factory wiring.
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bad/durty wire connection/corrossion somewhere.
might even be a connection not making contact properly
other then that a broken wire inside the starter or just bad luck
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not to argue or sound like a know it all, but i just dont think its the starter, the one on it was only 5 months old, then i replaced it with a brand new one, and same thing happined, but to be safe i will pull it off and bench test it. any other ideas? it just seems like there is a short in the wiring from the ignition switch to the starter, and is causing everything to lose power, i just checked, even with key start position, i am not getting any power to the soloniod on starter from factory wiring.
Problem is that the screwdriver test bypasses any and all ignition wiring problems.
Troublesooting sometimes means eliminating suspects...screwdriver test eliminates the ignition wiring, jumper cables eliminates the primary bat wiring...you are pretty much down to the starter.
A Worn starter bushing can cause this exact problem by binding the starter...the big current drawn by a stalled starter will cause all your lights to go out..especially with your battery mounted in the trunk.
It's a dollar part that takes 5 minutes to change out...eliminates it as a suspect...and to Andrews suggestion you could get the starter benchtested while you were at it to eliminate yet another suspect.
Bosch ships a new bushing with their starters and won't honor a warrenty if the bushing is not replaced...used to think they were being anal but I've seen starters jam with my own two eyes.
Just another suggestion as you eliminate suspects...
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Had a sort of similar problem...attached a grounding wire directly between the starter casing and the cars body and that fixed it...so maybe????
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yea the new starter came with the bushing, i will try to install it tomorrow. whats the easiest way to get the old one out?
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whats the easiest way to get the old one out?
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=28
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cool, thanks much appreciated, will try this tomorrow in the day light, then if still nothing, i will hook more ground straps up and hope for the best, i did notice something unusual when i pushed started it the other day, my volt meter was only reading 12v, not the normal 14v, but my batery light on dash was not on, so could this be related at all?
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so today, i pulled the starter, and bench tested, and worked fine,installed all wiring, and grounded it without it touching the fylwheel, and nothing, just a click, and lost power, headlights go off, fan goes off, but dome light is still on and bright. i tried adding ground straps everywhere, no difference, i also noticed while cycling the key, a few times, the idiots lights were not coming on at all, but the low coolant light kept flashing, even after key was removed, and i had to cycle it a few more times for the light to go off, i also ran a cable from battery + to the soloniod on starter, it sparked and clicked but starter didnt turn over, it has to be a wiring problem of some sort, when the key is in start position, what else is energized when in start position?
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O.K. Place the vehicle in neutral with the e-brake on (wheel chock too if necessary). Now disconnect both battery cables and all the wires from the starter. Grab a pair of jumper cables. and connect them to the battery. Clip the other negative to the starter housing and connect the positive to the starter sense connection and the lug which usually has the big red wire on it. If the starter does not spin correctly, then you have now determined that it has nothing to do with any of the vehicle wiring.
... and since you bench tested the starter you know it's good, so it's gonna run... especially with that shiny new bushing in place? ;)
In actual fact there's probably multiple things going on here... your ignition switch sounds suspect due to the behaviour of the idiot lights, and I've personally never seen a battery reloc kit that was designed for the heavier currents a diesel engine requires, but all of this is moot if a screwdriver won't engage the starter when it's connected to a known good source of power with jumper cables... so, one thing at a time !
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Fun fact: did you know that "moot" means arguable and does not mean irrelevant? Although in legal terms an arguable point is irrelevant to the argument... jeez this whole post is irrelevant...
must be Sunday
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Fun fact: did you know that "moot" means arguable and does not mean irrelevant? Although in legal terms an arguable point is irrelevant to the argument... jeez this whole post is irrelevant...
must be Sunday
I like how Joey (from Friends) phases this: he calls it a "moo" point... meaning: it's a cow's opinion, and who cares what a cow thinks? ;)
Yup, Sunday for sure. ;D
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it did the same thing with the original ignition switch, as it does now with a new German one, i will try the jumper cables tomorrow,
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As Vince already said, if you are jumping the starter correctly and it's still not working then the fault doesn't have anything to do with the ignition. When you're jumping the starter, you're giving positive juice to both the sense wire connection and the lug with the big red wire on it, correct? I assume you must be if it's working on the bench. O.K. Place the vehicle in neutral with the e-brake on (wheel chock too if necessary). Now disconnect both battery cables and all the wires from the starter. Grab a pair of jumper cables. and connect them to the battery. Clip the other negative to the starter housing and connect the positive to the starter sense connection and the lug which usually has the big red wire on it. If the starter does not spin correctly, then you have now determined that it has nothing to do with any of the vehicle wiring. It will have to be either the starter, the battery or the interface between the starter and the engine (teeth missing from the flywheel, bad mounting angle on the starter, bad starter bushing, etc...). I would then remove the negative jumper cable and attach the car's ground strap to the battery and try again. If it works fine then I'd attach just the big red wire and the sense wire to the starter and try again, etc.....
Andrew
tried this, and it actually cranked, i need to get another cable so i can start testing to see where i am losing my power at. i am gonna try relocation battery back under the hood, and try again,
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so, i got new cables with good ground/ power sources, a brand new battery, and still nothing, i have narrowed it down to a short between the ignition switch and the starter, or from the battery cable to the ignition switch, so i will start tracing wires, where is a good place to start?
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yes, from the battery + on starter to solonoid, just sparks, no i didnt change the bushing, also my battery was relocated in the trunk, and i have a 2 gauge wire relocation kit from Summit racing, and it worked fine all winter, so i dont think thats an issue,
If the bushing doesn't work I would look here. I looked at the summit and other brand relocation kits and they don't have but 3 feet of Negative cable. Something could have corroded over the last few months on the car or where the cable is attached enough to not give you good cranking. My bet is still on the bushing as I had one act similar and in less than 3 months I had ruined the starter, but if not I would give the wiring a try. I too ran 2/0 to the bellhousing for better ground.
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If the bushing doesn't work I would look here. I looked at the summit and other brand relocation kits and they don't have but 3 feet of Negative cable. Something could have corroded over the last few months on the car or where the cable is attached enough to not give you good cranking. My bet is still on the bushing as I had one act similar and in less than 3 months I had ruined the starter, but if not I would give the wiring a try. I too ran 2/0 to the bellhousing for better ground.
i already changed the bushing, no difference, i just cleaned the ground connection and greased it, i ran extra ground cables and no difference, my problem is confirmed that i have a short from battery+ to ignition switch, or from ignition switch to starter, because i have no power at the soloniod when in start position, and everything that is key hot in start position loses power when engauged.
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show us pics of your ground. Maybe try not greasing it. I didn't read every post yet, but did someone mention that the key switches in these usually start to go bad after about 150,000 miles? All the vw's I have owned but one I have had to put a key switch in.
I read some more and the key switch has been talked about. I might still try to bypass the key switch and see if that works. Maybe something in the wiring from the front to the rear has gotten fried.
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You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that when you turn the ignition key but the engine doesn't crank that the dome light doesn't dim. This means it is NOT an issue with the starter binding or such. That situation would draw so much current that your dome light would dim. You are just losing a connection which would seem to point to the ignition switch circuit or any relays between the switch and starter relay OR a ground issue. Put a test light at the start terminal on the starter relay using a known good chassis ground for the test light and see if you are consistently getting a signal when turning the ignition key. I would also use jumpers and a second known good battery to bypass your trunk mounted one and see if the engine cranks then.
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Out of curiosity, where does your battery ground wire go?
Generally they go from the battery to the body, to the trans mount, to the forward upper bolt on the belhousing.
I realize you replaced the cable, but if you had a bad engine / body / battery ground you'd see this problem.
and if doing this Clip the other negative to the starter housing and connect the positive to the starter sense connection and the lug which usually has the big red wire on it.
makes the starter work, while simply bridging the hot and sense connection does not make it work, is a dead giveway.
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You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that when you turn the ignition key but the engine doesn't crank that the dome light doesn't dim. This means it is NOT an issue with the starter binding or such. That situation would draw so much current that your dome light would dim. You are just losing a connection which would seem to point to the ignition switch circuit or any relays between the switch and starter relay OR a ground issue. Put a test light at the start terminal on the starter relay using a known good chassis ground for the test light and see if you are consistently getting a signal when turning the ignition key. I would also use jumpers and a second known good battery to bypass your trunk mounted one and see if the engine cranks then.
yea, i know its not a starter and or bushing problem, i went thru the relays and cannot find which one is starter relay, my bentley didnt even mention starter relay, i already moved battery up from using jumper cables and hooked it up to starter and it cranked, so i know its an issue with wiring from b+ to ignition switch, or from ignition switch to starter relay (where ever that is) or a ground issue that i have not found yet.
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Out of curiosity, where does your battery ground wire go?
Generally they go from the battery to the body, to the trans mount, to the forward upper bolt on the belhousing.
I realize you replaced the cable, but if you had a bad engine / body / battery ground you'd see this problem.
and if doing this Clip the other negative to the starter housing and connect the positive to the starter sense connection and the lug which usually has the big red wire on it.
makes the starter work, while simply bridging the hot and sense connection does not make it work, is a dead giveway.
ok, my battery grounds are as follows, the relocation kit has its ground on the trunk latch, the 0 gage ground cables end fits perfectly into the screw for that, ground is sanded down to bare metal, diolectic grease applied, ground under the hood are from the top of driver side trans mount to the body frame rail, i do not have anything on bell housing, and it never did, at least since ive owned the car, i put anohter ground cable directly on the starter and grounded to strut mount, and no change,
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Yeah, your car has no starter relay.
OK, at three pages this is getting a bit hard to follow. Let's see if these are the facts:
- if you turn the key to "start" the starter clicks but doesn't turn and the lights in the car, dash, etc dim
- if you apply power directly to the starter body and main stud via jumper cables and then use a screwdriver etc to bridge between the main starter stud and ignition terminal on the starter the car turns over properly
- you've got a known good battery, starter, starter bushing, and, as far as you can tell, good heavy duty battery wiring and grounds via a battery relocation kit.
Is the above a reasonable summary? If I've got any of the details wrong let's clarify... the details are important!
If so... what happens if you use a screwdriver etc to run power from the big starter stud to the ignition terminal on the starter (no jumper cables, just using the car's own electrical system) ?
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Yeah, your car has no starter relay.
OK, at three pages this is getting a bit hard to follow. Let's see if these are the facts:
- if you turn the key to "start" the starter clicks but doesn't turn and the lights in the car, dash, etc dim
- if you apply power directly to the starter body and main stud via jumper cables and then use a screwdriver etc to bridge between the main starter stud and ignition terminal on the starter the car turns over properly
- you've got a known good battery, starter, starter bushing, and, as far as you can tell, good heavy duty battery wiring and grounds via a battery relocation kit.
Is the above a reasonable summary? If I've got any of the details wrong let's clarify... the details are important!
If so... what happens if you use a screwdriver etc to run power from the big starter stud to the ignition terminal on the starter (no jumper cables, just using the car's own electrical system) ?
1-Key on Start, starter sometimes clicks 2-3 times them nothing more. other times nothing at all. headlights go completly off, no dim, just off, but dome light stays on, nice and bright, my volt meter drops off completly, and my idiot lights go crazy, some on, some off, and sometimes they stay on, even after i take the key out, no difference with new ignition switch
2-yes.
3-yes.
If i use a screwdriver to run power from starter lug to ignition terminal on starter, the first 2-3 times, it clicks, and u can hear relays in the car clicking also, but nothing more, after the 2-3 times it clicks, it wont click any more, just sparks lightly,
even if i have the wire to ignition terminal on starter disconnected, and turn key to start, i loose power everywhere just as if it was connected.
i ran a 10 gauge wire from battery + to ingition terminal on starter turned key to ON, and connected wire, it did the same thing, clicked 2-3 times, then just sparked and wouldnt click anymore.
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BTW, just to clarify... your headlights are supposed to go off when you turn the key to start. They, and other major current circuits like the rear window defogger etc, go thru a load reduction relay that is turned off when the key is in the start position... this frees up more power for the starter.
Your idiot lights may also do some random blinking... there are several timing circuits at work.
As Andrew says, it is sounding more and more like your problem is one of the big current paths... and jumper cables are a great way to run a temporary bypass.
When did all this start, btw? Had any work been done to the car?
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this all started a few weeks ago as an intermittent problem, just every once in a while it would go to start and boom, nothing, let it sit for a bit and it would start just fine, then 1 day it just wouldnt start at all, and thats where thats at, should i have another ground on top of the one from trans mount to body? i put just a temporary one on and it didnt change anything,granted it wasnt fastened to anything, just sitting on clean surface, am i getting a good enough ground from the trunk latch bracket? should i move it to the bumper mount bolt instead?
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k, i just put my jumper cables from starter body to neg. on battery had to use a ground strap because jumper cables were too short to reach, and still nothing, i moved the jumper cable to a bell housing bolt and no change, just click 2-3 times, then nothing after. this is soooo frustrating. i really appreciate everyones help on this, also my idiot lights even act funny when the key is just on, not all of them are coming on, like they usually do, then other times they do come on, also the wire from ignition to starter has no power when key is in start position
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If you pull your battery out of the trunk and put it near the front corner of your car and use the booster cables, does it work normally? I would be very suspicious of running a ground through a latch bracket as you probably have 2 or 3 areas where you could have connection problems.
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correct, if the battery is located up front, using jumper cables, the car will crank,
i was curious about that ground also, but its been working for the last 6 months all thru winter with no problems, y now? i even cleaned the ground up. i am not getting any power to the starter from the ignition. but it will not crank if i use a screw driver to jumper it, just click 2-3 times, then have a small arc with no clicking or cranking, then i have to let it sit for a while come back, will click 2-3 times again, then nothing, same thing every time.
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I'd suggest one more test. Hook the negative jumper cable back up from the negative of the battery to the starter body. Then try using the screwdriver to jumper the starter.
Regardless, put the battery back up front.
Whether it's the power side or the ground side or both, the present routing is not allowing enough current to flow. Why now? Maybe your battery is slightly worse off than before. Maybe your ignition switch is slightly more worn. Maybe you have a little more corrosion in the ground or power paths. Regardless, VW put the battery by the starter and glow plugs for a very good reason. In fact in the diesel vanagons they even moved from its gas vanagon location under the passenger seat to the passenger side of the engine compartment just for that reason.
110% agreement. Move it, try these tests. The only diesel I know of with the battery _not_ near the starter was the first new car I ever had - a 1985 Diesel Escort. It had a really BIG battery that could not be placed up front, so Ford put it behind a pannel in the trunk area and used a really large set of cables to get the amps to the starter. They also used a toaster to heat the intake air - part of the reason for this addition to my Caravan 1.6 before winter comes again :-P
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I'd suggest one more test. Hook the negative jumper cable back up from the negative of the battery to the starter body. Then try using the screwdriver to jumper the starter.
Regardless, put the battery back up front.
Whether it's the power side or the ground side or both, the present routing is not allowing enough current to flow. Why now? Maybe your battery is slightly worse off than before. Maybe your ignition switch is slightly more worn. Maybe you have a little more corrosion in the ground or power paths. Regardless, VW put the battery by the starter and glow plugs for a very good reason. In fact in the diesel vanagons they even moved from its gas vanagon location under the passenger seat to the passenger side of the engine compartment just for that reason.
I will try this, but i just put a new battery and new ignition switch in last week, but none of this explains y i have no power going from ignition to starter, all my gauges go dead while in start position, and never did before this issue
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its been working for the last 6 months all thru winter with no problems, y now?
Your car used to work... it stopped working. Something decided to quit working, even though it was working before. Why now? Because it did!! ;)
The reason we've been pretty methodical about the approach to troubleshooting this is that unlike a broken connecting rod no one can see where the electrons have decided to stop. So, we have to take it one step at a time... and this means not ruling stuff out just 'cause it used to work before. ;)
Keep at it.. you'll get it... and an open mind as to what it could be is important.
but it will not crank if i use a screw driver to jumper it, just click 2-3 times
This pretty much proves that your relocation kit is not working properly any longer, and if you move the battery back to the front and can get it to start with a screwdriver you will have confirmed this to be the case.
With that out of the way (one way of the other), you can then investigate why there seems to be no power at the ignition terminal... not uncommon for two things to decide to head south together. Or, the nature of the reloc kit also contributed to the way power is supplied to the ignition circuit.. always hard to tell exactly what's going on over the Internet !
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Ive seen this problem with W210 mercedes diesels having batteries under the rear seat - what you need is to put a dedicated ground cable directly hooked to the trans or starter - mercs use it on the trans end housing and if you anything else like hooking it to the body then body to trans or starter - you will get insane amounts of current loss
diesel starters especially BOSCH ones are extremely hungry for amps when it comes to starting
Best put it back under the bonnet - you will also save your cars body from a lot of corossion
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after seeing the rust and corrosion in the floor of my project that is why I first posted about your summit kit. They said it was only a 3ft ground so I knew that wasn't long enough to reach the starter. If I were you and the tests confirm that a battery directly connected to the starter makes it work then I would get a long piece of 2/0 to run from front to back if you still want to keep it there. I used the 2/0 and NEVER had battery issues. Good luck, and BTW where in Ohio are you?
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but, none of this explains y i dont have any power going from ignition to starter, but, i will try better grounds, andi am in Tiffin, Ohio
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check the ignition switch - its known to go bad specially in the start position, the factory starting wiring is like this
juice jug (battery) - starting switch key - starter solenoid terminal 50 - solenoid coil - ground
that terminal 50 sucks juice - about 40 amps of it all wired through long wires and two tiny contacts in the switch - which wears it down after a few million starting cycles - thats why I have put a bosch 70 amp relay in the starting circuit under the bonnet.
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check the ignition switch - its known to go bad specially in the start position, the factory starting wiring is like this
juice jug (battery) - starting switch key - starter solenoid terminal 50 - solenoid coil - ground
that terminal 50 sucks juice - about 40 amps of it all wired through long wires and two tiny contacts in the switch - which wears it down after a few million starting cycles - thats why I have put a bosch 70 amp relay in the starting circuit under the bonnet.
just replaced ignition switch
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You've said repeatedly that it will click 2-3 times with the ignition, exactly the same as when you jumper the two connections on the starter, so unless I'm mistaken, you obviously ARE getting power from the ignition to the starter. It's just not enough to get the starter solenoid to fully engage and get the motor to turn.
at first this was the case, but now it only clicks when bridged with screw driver, but when checked with DVOM i am getting nothing from that wire from ignition.
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One thing I noticed in the post is that you used dielectric grease at some point...dielectric grease is good insulator but electric conducting grease might be what you need. I started out thinking dielectric grease improved contacts...my bad. Along with electric conducting grease it is also a good practice to give the connections a shot of contact cleaner spray first (radioshack).
I have used lot of electric conducting grease (available in the electric wiring section of hardware stores) ...especially between the ignition switch and the wiring loom socket connected to ignition switch plus the the starter terminal, the starter ground and pretty much any wired connection. It really helps as the old connections corrode and loosen up...given the smooth idling charateristics of old rabbit diesels ;)
And too Zulfiqar...that idea about wiring in a relay to the starter circuit is a really, really, really good one (I'm off to the auto parts place). It works great for the air blower motor and to brighten up the headlights too.
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Not to hijack this thread but come to think of it, terminal 50 on the starter solenoid functions alot like a relay would???
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the starter solenoid acts as a giant 300 amp relay to energise the starter - the coil in the solenoid (aka terminal 50) sucks about 40 amp on contact and stabilises at 10 amps - 40 amps on the starter switch is nasty
a bosch 70 amp relay coil only requires 0.5 amp current to energise and pass the solid 40 amp load to terminal 50 from the battery within 2 ft of wire.
Thats how Ive seen all 12V Toyota and Nissan diesels wired up from the factory