VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: riceatingrabbit on June 03, 2009, 09:44:22 pm
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UPDATE
ok, I've run into a snag..
I know that lots of people have put mech heads on hydro blocks..
but, I have just discovered a major difference between the two, and I need to know what yall are doing about it.
The hydro block/head has two oil ( return?) holes on the front of the engine and the mech one does not..it only has the one in the center..
see the difference in the gaskets:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/gaskets.gif)
the block:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/block.gif)
and the head I am trying to get on it:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/head-2.gif)
heres how I see it:
the extra hole must be a return hole.. because on the broken hydro head, its just a drain hole.. just like the one in the center but smaller..
so, given that, oil is flowing down... So since the mech head doesn't have the hole, the one in the block will just be blocked and unused.
AM I RIGHT?
with that in mind, I should be able to bolt up the mech head with the mech gasket and be golden.. correct?
but.. I think of another problem: why is the extra hole there on the hydro motor? maybe its because the hydro head is more thirsty for oil, and the block pumps more.. so am I going to be filling the head with oil? and not have adequate draining power? hmmm...
I am really trying to get this sucker running, so, If you have ANY input please post..
THANKS!!!
Original post:
HI!
I know that this is probably a pretty common question on here and i know that i'm going to get the " search" comments.. and i have... but i want my own thread!!
and i figure that you guys are nicer that the vortex crowd so i have my fingers crossed 8)
OK, heres the scoop:
I just finished putting together an "new" ( 80k mile ) engine to replace the blown 1.5 in my rabbit..
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/engine-out.gif)
and... last weekend i had it going..
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/clean-1.gif)
it was running really well until the pump skipped time... The next morning i tore it back down to re time it.. yall know the procedure..
I like to lock the crank in addition to the pump and cam... then loosen the cam gear to take any slack... I have had very good luck doing it like that and this time was no different.. except for one thing...
I FORGOT TO TIGHTEN THE CAM GEAR!!!!!
a few nasty clanking sounds later and the new motor was toast...
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/100_0915.gif)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/100_0918.gif)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/100_0922.gif)
TOAST!!!
I feel like such an idiot for that..
thats the background, heres the new situation:
I am hoping that my pistons are ok ( I haven't been able to get the head off yet because i dont have the right tool ... gonna try and get one tomorrow.. ) what are the chances of that?
and if they are, I can slap a new head on it and go...
Ive already put too much money into this car...
and i dont really want to go for a new head..
especially because i have a very pretty ( CRACKLESS ) 1.5 solid lifter head sitting in my shop..
its ready to go.. no expensive machine work required..
pics:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/head.gif)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/1000.gif)
So, I am wondering about other people's experiences with this setup? is it's level of reliability any different that any other head?
I have read about people drilling out the holes for the head bolts... is that safe? is there any other way? will there be head alignment issues?
also, what do you do about the oil return on the front of the head? does it need to be machined to the diameter of the one on the block? or can it be left there?
optimally, i would like to drill the head bolt holes and use stock 12mm head bolts and hopefully not have to mess with the oil return...
that way ( assuming that the bottom end is ok) i can do this for the cost of a head gasket kit..
what do yall think?
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hmmm.. havent thought of the prechamber volume..
does anyone know if they are different than the 1.5 head? maybe i could offset the effect by running the thickest gasket?
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THe oil return does require some addressing.. You will need to make/use something like this, http://www.vwdieselparts.com/1.5-1.6.htm (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/1.5-1.6.htm), with a 1.5 gasket... You'll probably need to ream the head bolt holes in the gasket to use the 12mm bolts...
Drilling the head for 12mm bolts isn't too awfully scarey.. Measure and use the proper bit (I forget the exact size) I believe the head bolt hole that feeds oil to the head is a tad larger.... A drill press for this is highly recomended... It's just too darn hard to hold a hand held drill perfectly straight, and you do need to drill these very straight!
The precups are indeed smaller.. I suck at math but roughly it bumps the compression up to 23:1 I think.... A thicker gasket should help a bit (haven;t done the math to know exactly).. But it would depend which gasket you already have too...
My daily driver has a 1.5 block and head with a 1.6 crank rods & pistons.. Bascially the sam compression you would have with the 1.5 head on a 1.6.. Never actually checked the compression on it, but I have had no need to either... The darned thing runs DARNED great, and gets a consistant average mpg of 46 - 49 with mixed highway city driving.. And my driving habits are not fuel economy friendly.. I probably have about 75,000 miles on it now..
The only problem I have with this setup is that I was being cheap and impatient and used head bolts during assembly.... Block cracked right from the get go.. >:( Hence the reason I preach so much about the use of head studs...
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Stock 1.5 CR is 23.5:1
Stock 1.6 CR is 23.0:1
1.6 Block + 1.5 head: 25.3:1
The swirl chambers are smaller in the 1.5 head.
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It might be a long shot...
I have a 1.6 mech head that is cracked...but it has good prechambers... I wonder if I could swap them into the 1.5 head?
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what if he say bought a bare 1.6 head from prothe and swapped the 1.5 junk in? would it even fit or are the valves bigger? seems like a lot less trouble than prepping the block for a mech head AND dealing with the extremely high CR, although this beast would start at -30C without glowplugs ;D
damn dude... that is one tough lesson :( judging by the damage to the head, i would almost have to say that the pistons shouldn't be too damaged, as it didn't happen at speed. there should only be imprints of the valves, and hopefully no mushrooming.
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the damage diddnt happen at speed... it happened at start up...
crank....crank....crank.... FIRE!.... CLANKCLANCKCLANK..... stop... it was a really really bad noise..
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1.6 Block + 1.5 head: 25.3:1
Yeah, thats it!!
I definitely had no problems starting the daily driver at -20 F with a gasser starter :o
Although I was using rather crude methods to measure, it does appear that the difference in chamber volume is in the head casting, not the insert...
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Sorry to hear that, it looks terrible.
Going by the fact the your cam broke I'd say the pistons got hit pretty hard.
X2 on swapping prechambers and using the 1.5 head.
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I'd run the 1.5 head on the 1.6 bottom end. Your peak cylinder compression will still be lower then a turbo engine (I think). You would probably need to fiddle with the pump timing
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You would probably need to fiddle with the pump timing
Good point here too.. Mine chatters like a Chinaman in the arctic at 1mm.. .94 Has been working good for me, with burning WVO most of the time it's about ideal.... If I ran plain ole diesel all the time I woudl probably run a bit less...
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It ain't that bad just swap the cam and get some new valve shims maybe a valve or 8 and your good to go ;D
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ok....
i got the head off...
and i come bearing good news! i think...
each piston had a valve print in it...
but, i cleaned them up, and all but one of the valve prints were in the carbon...
I have one SLIGHT print on the number four piston, I couldnt even get a good pic of it... and its hard to see unless you run your finger over it and feel it..
is that a problem or am i good?
also, I noticed some pitting ( from fuel knock?) on the leading edge of some of the pistons... (see pics)... is that a problem?
pics:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/e1.gif)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/e2.gif)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/e3.gif)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/e4.gif)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/e5.gif)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/e6.gif)
what do you guys think?
ALSO: I noticed that i can move each piston side to side a timy bit in the bore... is that normal???
they are all moving the same amount, so i have my fingers crossed that it isnt a big deal...
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(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/100_0922.gif)
(http://www.medeasin.com/journal/04/0410/subzerofatality.jpg)
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if the pistons didnt move at all i think there would be some metal on metal contact not metal on oil on metal on oil on metal contact :P
a little play is good me thinks.
i am sorry for your loss. Prothe sells new cam shafts for 55 US at least he did last year...
nice looking engine buddy.
We've all made silly mistakes. Be thankful that didn't happen at higher rpm.
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that pitting is bad injectors I do believe
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I have a simular thread to this on vortex... they are saying;
that the pitted pistons are trash, and that I probably have a bent rod... and I probably have flat spots on my bearings..
what do you guys think?
I am thinking of throwing a junkyard head on it and going with it...
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Maybe if you had demoed the engine from a mis-shift and reved it to 8000... at cranking speeds I doubt there is any damage to the bottom end. You'd have very deep impressions in the pistons if you bent a rod I would imagine.
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I have a simular thread to this on vortex... they are saying;
Consider the source........
IF the rod bent before the valve and cam broke I don;t think any of these engines would have lasted more than 50K miles.. Same goes for the pistons..
I have worse looking pistons in my daily driver.. You could almost do shots out of the valve imprints in them...
Throw a head on it with some good injectors!!
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true...
I got a new head and head gasket stuff for it today... hope to have it running again by the end of the weekend... will keep yall updated
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Pistons that looked like these (and the rods that were attached to them) are running just fine for me:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/piston_with-imprint.jpg)
Don't forget to get new nozzles... ;)
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/piston1.jpg)
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i need new nozzles. Can we group buy please :D .
My pistons too are slightly pitted and have impressions. I dont see how that equates to flat spots on bearings and bent rods.
Vortex just doesn't like Diesel's because we have power house torque monsters and they dont! 8)
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I have a simular thread to this on vortex... they are saying;
Consider the source........
Yeah, I came over here to post because I wasn't about to post on the vortex (I am xero over there ;) )
fix the head, slap it on, run it and go. The damage you have is so minimal it's laughable.
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(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/piston1.jpg)
(http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/6742/412189-945637465_00_super.gif)
Toasty!!!!
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ok, I've run into a snag..
I know that lots of people have put mech heads on hydro blocks..
but, I have just discovered a major difference between the two, and I need to know what yall are doing about it.
The hydro block/head has two oil ( return?) holes on the front of the engine and the mech one does not..it only has the one in the center..
see the difference in the gaskets:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/gaskets.gif)
the block:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/block.gif)
and the head I am trying to get on it:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/head-2.gif)
heres how I see it:
the extra hole must be a return hole.. because on the broken hydro head, its just a drain hole.. just like the one in the center but smaller..
so, given that, oil is flowing down... So since the mech head doesn't have the hole, the one in the block will just be blocked and unused.
AM I RIGHT?
with that in mind, I should be able to bolt up the mech head with the mech gasket and be golden.. correct?
but.. I think of another problem: why is the extra hole there on the hydro motor? maybe its because the hydro head is more thirsty for oil, and the block pumps more.. so am I going to be filling the head with oil? and not have adequate draining power? hmmm...
I am really trying to get this sucker running, so, If you have ANY input please post..
THANKS!!!
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ok.. ever since i made the post about the holes, I have been searching and researching the issue on this site..
I figured out that you can plug it..
I dug around in the garage and came up with a chunk of rubber..
I carved plugs for the head and block that are about 1/2 inch deep and fit VERY tightly into their respective holes..
Then, I coated them in silcone (red RTV) and pounded them in.. Then I used a razor blade and cut them flush to the surface.
I'm also making a rubber plug for the head gasket too.. just for safe measure..
QUESTION:
If you look at my new mech gasket, and compare it to the hydro gasket, you'll notice that around the central oil return hole, there are coolant passages
The mech gasket doesnt have holes for these passages..
Is it OK to drill holes for them in the new gasket?
or should i leave it?
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ok... ya youre probably right.. I was leaning towards leaving it anyways..
I'm not going to have it running tonight..
I'm running out of time!!
I'm hoping to have the head torqued....
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Check out the build thread on my wife's 1.6. The pistons were much worse than yours, they will be fine. :)
Ship that spoiler yet? ;)
Brendan
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Check out the build thread on my wife's 1.6. The pistons were much worse than yours, they will be fine. :)
Ship that spoiler yet? ;)
Brendan
do you have a link to that thread?
oh , and yes, it is sent..
check your pm's on vortex..
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I am VERY close to starting it again...
I am also very nervous about it considering what happened last time..
I have checked and rechecked the cam and IP pump bolts about 6 times already..
and will check again!!!
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Fingers crossed!!! The suspense is killing me!!!! :o
Ok yeah, make sure that cam sproket is tight... ;D
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Here's the build thread of the Wife's car:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=17100.0
Also, give that cam bolt a good whack with a hammer, then re-torque it! :)
Brendan
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Fingers crossed!!! The suspense is killing me!!!! :o
Ok yeah, make sure that cam sproket is tight... ;D
lol... well, last night I got it to the point that i wanted to start it.. just to hear it run, then put all of the accessory back on.....and I I got it to fire a couple times!!!!
but.. then....
the battery died!!!!
and now I am probably not going to have another chance to work on it until the beginning of next week.. so... dang!!!
oh and Brendan, thanks for the link ;D
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Damn it, the suspense is killing me too :D
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... you think you guys are anxious... this is SUPPOSED to be my daily driver! I havent had a car the whole time this things been down!!! more than two months now (http://media.firevortex.net/icons/custom/green/fv-green-doh.gif)
my fingers are seriously crossed on this thing..
what sux thought is that its so close, and now im not going to have a chance to work on it for a few days...
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I got a chance to work on it tonight!!!
I bled the fuel system... hit the glow plugs... crank... crank....... fire!!!! sput sput puuuurrrrrrrr.....purrrrrrr......
IT RUNS!!!!!!!
I let it run for about 45 minutes and it didnt do anything funny... so thats a good sign. I went to back it out of the garage and first is where reverse is suppose to be... so, tomorrow I have to ajust the shift linkage to be able to drive it..
I have heard that you are suppose to re torque the head after its gotten hot... thoughts on this???
proof ;D
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/th_100_0977.jpg) (http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f233/greg_3821/DIESEL%20RABBIT/?action=view¤t=100_0977.flv)
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Beautiful music!!!! That's what that is! I imagine moreso for you!
That one is 12mm right? Did you use bolts or studs? With studs I retorque right after warming it up to the stud maufacturer's highest spec (Arp = 85lb/ft?), then again after the 1000 miles...
I think Bentley says a quarter turn right after warmup, and another quarter turn after 1000 miles when using the stretch bolts.. Never having used the stretch bolts I can;t say for sure, but I would probably follow that procedure..
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how come your old hydro headgasket has all similar sized coolant holes, the original goetze part Ive seen have big coolant holes on the 3 and 4 cylinders and smaller holes on the 1 and 2 cylinder side..
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how come your old hydro headgasket has all similar sized coolant holes, the original goetze part Ive seen have big coolant holes on the 3 and 4 cylinders and smaller holes on the 1 and 2 cylinder side..
dunno... i just bought a stock mech gasket...
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oh... and a little update on the situation...
I took it out today and drove it around my neighborhood for about half an hour... it passed that test, so then I took it out on the highway....10 miles down hill, turn around and 10 miles back up that steep hill..
thats the most stressful part of my daily drive and it did it without any major issues.. coolant temp stayed right where it should be, and oil pressure looked good... I've got 35 psi at warm idle, and about 75 psi at highway speed..
the only problem I had was the small overflow coolant hose got a pin hole in it and was pissing coolant when I got it back.. and also the shift linkage is nearly unadjustable.. becuase all of the bushings are gone.. So tomorrow i will put a new hose on it and rebuild the shifter..
got about 30 miles on it now... so far so good.. keeping the fingers crossed..
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that 5 dollar shifter bushing kit is one of the first things i replace on any old dub i come across. good to hear it passed the test. ;D