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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: subsonic on May 01, 2009, 03:44:39 pm
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Anyone ever try to upgrade the stock t3 by going to a larger compressor wheel and housing? Turbine and center section would remain the same. No manifold or oil line changes. No DP changes. Perhaps a small change for intake and charge pipe due to slightly larger comp housing.
I am not talking about a jump all the way to a t4, but something larger while staying in the t3 family. As an example, while I had a merc t3 and a vw t3 apart, I tried out the merc comp wheel and comp housing on the base vw t3. This was just a dry fit to see if they would go and the setup was never run, but it sure looked like it was a perfect fit. I am guessing this would help move a larger volume of air at a lower tempature, both good things. Anyone ever try it? Opinions?
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I don't see why that would not work. It basically changing the trim and A/R of the comp side. The turbo dodge boys have been doing this stuff for a long time; Grand National Compressor sides on Turbo Dodge centers with Ford Exhaust sides (for the bigger .63 A/R). Most of the T-3 stuff is pretty interchangable.
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Maybe you should try the T3 used in Volvo/VW D24T engine, or the one used in the Volvo B230FT, the gas versión use a .42 or .48 exhaust A/R and a .45 intake A/R. Good luck
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Whats the stock A/R on the t3 comprssor? Anyone know trim and wheel spec's?
I am going to go take some photo's of the merc compressoe housing next to the vw comp housing. I will also take photo's of the wheels.
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Who has the specs for the stock vw garret t3, map trim etc.
For comparison here are the specs for the merc compressor.
TA0-301
.42 A/R Compressor
Part number 409096-0008
Wheel diameter mm (A) 60,00
Inducer diameter mm (B) 40,50
Tip height mm (C) 4,10
Wheel bore diameter 6,00
TRIM 45
Here is the turbo map for it.
(http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t3-45.gif)
Photos of the two compressor housings and wheels side by side.
VW on left Merc on right. You might be able to see the opening size difference.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/t3%20compressors/DSCN0993.jpg)
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/t3%20compressors/DSCN0994.jpg)
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/t3%20compressors/DSCN0995.jpg)
Shot of the wheels side by side. Wheel on turbo is vw.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/t3%20compressors/DSCN0999.jpg)
Wheel shots to show blade size difference.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/t3%20compressors/DSCN1000.jpg)
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/t3%20compressors/DSCN1001.jpg)
Shot to show difference in size with merc compressor on stock wheel. Notice the increased space around the wheel.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/t3%20compressors/DSCN0997.jpg)
Merc comp housing on merc wheel.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/t3%20compressors/DSCN0998.jpg)
Merc comp housing sitting on vw t3.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff120/subsonic44/t3%20compressors/DSCN0996.jpg)
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Who has the specs for the stock vw garret t3, map trim etc.
For comparison here are the specs for the merc compressor.
TA0-301
.42 A/R Compressor
45 Trim
Here is the turbo map for it.
(http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t3-45.gif)
Here is the compressor map for the T3 that is stock on 1.6 TD VW engines, which I believe is 0.36 A/R:
(http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/SAE/figure_47.jpg)
JackBombay posted some reference points of several comparative turbo maps over at the Samba, for people with turbodiesel vans.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=304473&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20
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Who has the specs for the stock vw garret t3, map trim etc.
For comparison here are the specs for the merc compressor.
TA0-301
.42 A/R Compressor
45 Trim
Here is the turbo map for it.
(http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t3-45.gif)
Here is the compressor map for the T3 that is stock on 1.6 TD VW engines, which I believe is 0.36 A/R:
(http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/SAE/figure_47.jpg)
JackBombay posted some reference points of several comparative turbo maps over at the Samba, for people with turbodiesel vans.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=304473&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20
also found this:
T3 compressor wheel
6 blades
Part number: 409096-0010
Wheel diameter mm (A)60,00
Inducer diameter mm (B) 35,40
Tip height mm (C) 3,00
Wheel bore diameter 6,00
TRIM 35
Or this boosted from jake
Check it out... A blow-up parts diagram with parts numbers for the 1.6lTD Garrett TA0304B is available on-line here (http://www.turbomaster.info/despieces_garrett/465384-0002.php) and specs on the compressors are available here (http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/applications/compressor.php), and turbine wheels here (http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/applications/turbine.php). Referencing the appropriate part numbers to these tables, and using the measurements I took directly from the guts of the 1.6lTD KKK turbo, we can compare these turbos more closely...
garrett compressor:
blades: 6
wheel diameter: 60.00mm
inducer bore: 35.40mm
tip height: 3.00mm
kkk compressor:
blades: 6 major, 6 minor (12 total)
wheel diameter: 60.5mm
inducer bore: 37.5mm
tip height: 4mm
findings: nearly identical compressor wheel OD means pressure ratio capability of the two are about equal. However, ~6% larger inducer bore of the KKK means it can flow a bit more air. There is also a very significantly greater tip height with the KKK turbo (33% greater on the KKK).
garrett turbine:
blades: 11
wheel diameter: 59.00 mm
exducer bore diameter: 49.00mm
kkk turbine:
blades: 12
wheel diameter: 59mm
exducer bore diameter: 49.5mm
findings: except for one additional blade on the kkk turbine, the turbine sections have nearly identical specs.[/quote]
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I just noticed the X axis of the map that I posted earlier was calibrated in kg/s, instead of the usual lb/min.
Jack Bombay recalibrated the 1.6 TD T3 map with an X axis of lb/min, and I want to post his work here beside subsonic's map, so the X axis is common to both.
(http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t3-45.gif)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/car%20pics/T3map7.gif)
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Nice! Thanks.
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im pretty sure thats all prothe does, just uses a merc cold side on a VW turbo..
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I did not know he was doing that. Just for the sake of the conversation, the comp does not need to be a merc unit. That was what I happened to have on the turbo shelf sitting next to the t3. Any larger comp wheel or housing in the t3 family is open to the conversation.
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im debating on what sort of turbo to put on my car next. but it needs to be something. think a t3 like the one you set up would work very good? spool time be a little longer cause of the huge wheel?
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I have never run it so I dont know. It will still have the .36 A/R turbine which should have pretty quick spool. I posted in the gtg section for the dyno day that I would send them the merc comp housing and wheel if they wanted to give it a go on the dyno for actual comparison testing.
In checking out the two different compressor maps, there is not a huge difference. There is some for sure, but nothing like if you went to a t04.
If someone with a good setup with guages etc wanted to run it on the dyno I would be interested to see the side by side differences. Might need to turn up the fuel some to take advantage of greater flow.
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i have plenty of fuel for sure. my car pours out some black smoke at low speeds if you arent careful on the pedal.
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so if a k24 have a similar configuracion than a modify t3 ,why not buy a k24?
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Yes, I k24 is bigger by a small amount. I was just asking the question about the t3, because there appears to be more t3 compressors available to experiment with then there are kkk compressors.
I figured that it might be a economical upgrade to try. You would not have to change much on the engine. The dowpipe would stay the same as well as the manifold and oil lines. I am sure there are some nice comprssor variations that would work well for paricular setups.
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Thats the reason i'm going to use a Turbo Dodge T-3. Its got a .43 A/R on the Comp side so it's a bit better flowing than the VW T-3. Plus its free!!!! :D :D
But seriously, the T-3's are super easy to find. All sorts of OE's used them; Ford, Saab, Dodge, Mercedes Benz, and VW. Plus, there are all sorts of different housings that were used. They just seem a bit more cost effective.
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I think if you are decent at reading the maps, and you know what you want your engine to do, you can find a compressor that will offer improvements. Besides if you can find a unit that is of a newer design, perhaps the wheel itself will offer gains by improved design compared to a 24 year old wheel. Not saying the stock wheel and comp housing are bad, just looking for those small gains.