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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: autoholic on March 20, 2009, 02:06:40 pm
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Well, 1.6TD #2 is complete so I'll have the samurai back in action soon. This time I used ARPs, high volume oil pump, pan baffle, in addition to everything else that is new.
I still need to figure out what to do about an IP. I gave my rebuilt IP to my friend and am stuck with his problem IP that I had apart several times, nothing seems to be wrong, sick of working on it.
I found these IP's on ebay, I bought it brand new for 160. The shaft is larger and it has no advance lever, but the advance set up will accept the lever. The IP is for an Onan Generator. The only diesel engine I have seen in an Onan generator is an cummins, Onan or lister petter (the Onan and Lister's use unit injectors), none ever had VW industrial that I am aware ( I used to work for an Onan distributor). I was hoping it was a 4BT pump, but according to the #'s it is a 9mm and I think the 4bt's are 12mm?
Do you think I can make this work for my 1.6D (NA motor w/ turbo) I'm not looking for big power, just a strong, reliable runner.
Here are the numbers:
NEW OLD STOCK from Onan generator surplus.
VE PUMP
Bosch diesel fuel injection pump. Name plate is stamped: Made in Germany specifically for Onan.
NR. 0 460 494 213
VE R 315
147-0462-20
011 (circled) 752 08575
Any help appreciated, I think more are still available if anyone is interested.
~Mark
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Can you post some pics? I think I would cut my losses and get a 1.6TD pump. Does it start at all? Does it draw fuel? There's going to be a lot of questions for an unknown application pump. I think someone like Giles could eventually set it up to run a VW engine but I think it would be cheaper to just find a used 1.6TD pump.
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What confuses me is that it has the 20MM shaft size, but the # says it is a 9mm pump. I thought all 20mm shafts would be 10mm and up?. Maybe I am looking at an inaccurate chart. I bet this is simply the same pump as 1.9 Vw industrial, in some odd Onan application.
What do you think, good deal for 160? it is brand spanking new in factory packaging.
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Its not installed yet. I would go with a 1.6TD pump, but they are not so easy to find. I'll be picking up a TD Quantum soon, which I can rob the pump from, but I'd like to leave the car alone. I just thought for 160 it was worth grabbing this mystery pump since it is brand new.
I'll pull the top off and compare throttle linkage/gov for starters.
I think they are still on ebay (search VE injection pump)
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http://cgi.ebay.com/BOSCH-VE-4-CYL-INJECTION-PUMP-ONAN-147-0462-20-NOS-OBO_W0QQitemZ140304674088QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item140304674088&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
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What confuses me is that it has the 20MM shaft size, but the # says it is a 9mm pump. I thought all 20mm shafts would be 10mm and up?. Maybe I am looking at an inaccurate chart. I bet this is simply the same pump as 1.9 Vw industrial, in some odd Onan application.
What do you think, good deal for 160? it is brand spanking new in factory packaging.
OK, I dug around some more and found that the larger shaft can be a 9mm (and that 17MM shafts can be 10-12MM) so I guess that is what it is, a 9MM pump w/ 20MM shaft.
That thing is a bargain for 160!
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Also check if this is a short shaft. If it is a short shaft you will have difficulty fitting it. It is possible but not simple.
tdi 20mm shaft have # 2 466 100 029. This pump have # 1 466 100 318 shaft.
This is the same shaft used on 5.9L, ford 6BTAA engine from 1998 engine. Are those pump short shaft?
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0 460 494 213 = VE4 / 9F 1000 R315
9mm plunger
Mechanical
1000 = upper pump nominal speed (1/2 of engine rpm)
R = clockwise
315 = type code
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Interesting, thanks.
I think it is a long shaft, seems the same as my other pumps (they're not in front of me right at the moment though)
I guess I need a Tdi pully? I'm anxious to see the linkage and gov,
changing the linkage (and doing gov mod) will not be a problem, but I am not sure how to actually adjust the Gov. On other VE pumps i have worked with I just set it to where it was originally. I guess i can compare the adjustment to another pump. I'll need to spend more time researching old posts.
So at this point I'll be using a 9MM NA pump (turned up a bit of course), a 1.9 camplate, gov mod, new 155bar TD injectors, adjustable boost reg (so I can turn it down on long hills if I need) The engine is a rebuilt NA 1.6motor with turbo. (the old motor was completely rebuilt running great, then I cracked the block when retorqing the head at under 500 miles)
Think this will work OK? I'm looking for a little more power then stock, but really want longevity. This thing is pretty much trail rig only.
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I removed the top and found that this industrial IP simply had a spring on a lever for the throttle linkage. I replaced this setup with the regular automotive type (and did gov mod) which was simple enough. I had to use the throttle shaft, return springs and lever from the automotive IP also, which was a shame since the splines on my old pump throttle shaft are kind of beat up. All went together fine though, job was simple enough except setting the lever and springs is always my least favorite part of working on these!
I think it'll work fine, I just need a pully and to time it. The engine is back in so I'm getting close now.
One thing I did not decide to change was the advance piston, so I will not have an advance lever (since the piston that is in it has no provision for the lever). I never really use it anyway, I'll just make sure I time it right and run it. I can always change this later if I want.
The Spring is Blue, and I left the shims as they are, seems a bit lighter then the automotive spring.
So the length is the same as the other pumps I have, it is not shorter. does this mean an AAZ or early Tdi pully will fit?
We'll see how it works soon enough. For 160 I'm still happy with the purchase of this pump. Sure is nicer then all the old junk I have.
Also, I took the other pump apart yet again since I was going to use the 1.9 camplate. I was looking at the camplate and noticed that the max lift on the highpoints of the plate are NOT 90* apart. I am wondering now if the IP problem I was having with my friends pump was a defective cam plate?!?!?! That'd be a B! I had that thing in and out so many times!
I'm gonna measure it out/compare it to another to determine if this plate is defective.
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It is the short shaft. The TDI sprocket will not work, in fact there is not any stock sprocket that will work. Easiest is probably to have a 1.6 sprocket machined to accept the larger shaft. You will also need to swap in a 1.6 governor spring assembly, control collar lever assembly and fit the cold start. IMO it's a great deal for someone wanting to make a VW genset, but the amount of modification necessary for auto application makes it unappealing to me.
Andrew
Why do you say its the short shaft? it's the same length as the 17MM pumps I have. I'm not sure what pulley to buy.
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It is the short shaft. The TDI sprocket will not work, in fact there is not any stock sprocket that will work. Easiest is probably to have a 1.6 sprocket machined to accept the larger shaft. You will also need to swap in a 1.6 governor spring assembly, control collar lever assembly and fit the cold start. IMO it's a great deal for someone wanting to make a VW genset, but the amount of modification necessary for auto application makes it unappealing to me.
Andrew
Why do you say its the short shaft? it's the same length as the 17MM pumps I have. I'm not sure what pulley to buy.
Or maybe the 20MM pumps should have a longer shaft then the 17MM?
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yeah, with my 4BTA pump (short 20mm shaft) I had to get a local shop bore out the small shaft pulley.
it cost $160 for the shop to do it, and many shops wont even try.
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Well that sucks, I thought that since the length was the same on this pump as my other pumps, this would not be a "short shaft" So The 20MM shaft pumps should be longer then the 17MM shaft pumps to use a factory sprocket, OK.
I did read through the FAQ's regarding this, but it was not clear to me that the 2oMM shafts should be longer than the 17MM to use a factory sprocket, that is; the short shaft 20mm is the same length as the regular 17MM.
Not sure what I'll do now, maybe go back to the other pump, since it seems that the problem with that one was simply that !%!%!$@##!@$%!% cheopo cam plate!
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OK, so I'm hunting down a MK4 pully/hub set up, seems like the only practical option. If anyone knows WTB please advise. Thanks.
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I'm also going to look into having my pulley machined to fit, but yea it does seem tricky (plus mine is not in the best shape so I would get a better one if I were going to go through the trouble of machining it). I think I would be better off simply machining a MK4 pulley, which will not involve re-creating tapers and critical dimensions. I'll see if i can find one soon, I'm losing hope though, I have a feeling the hub part is gonna be hard to find, then there is the hassle of initially timing it right with no key.
I'm still hoping to use this pump as of now, since it is new and it is all Bosch. Alot of trouble to end up with a 9MM NA pump!!! but it'll be better then a $160 paper weight! I have plenty of paper weights as it is!
Libbybaba, you mentioned that I would need to change the control collar lever on this pump too? it sure looked the same as the other pumps I have. Is there (probably ) something else I am not aware of?
Thanks again
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You could simply make an adaptor to make the shaft longer at a machinist shop.
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Well, I ended up finding a nice 1.6 pully I forgot I had. I had it machined to fit the 20mm shaft and all went well, expensive at $165 though! The place ended up making a broach to plunge into the pully, so next time around it would be alot less money! If anyone ever needs to have this done, you can contact Race Metal Smiths in WRJ VT and mail your sprocket to them (Ph# not in front of me at the moment) Really good shop. The place happens to be located right next to NE diesel injection, where I learned more about this pump.
One question; someone at an online VW place keeps insisting that a MK3 TDI pully will work on this pump, I told him no - if the folks on GTD say no, then the answer is no!!! GTD opinion is the gospel man!
So the pump is on but I forgot I lent out my timing tools to a friend who finally got them back to me today, so tomorrow I hope to fire her up!