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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Jettagli16v on March 06, 2009, 08:43:54 am
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Hooray for me!
I really feel like one of the club now!
This is moved over from the testing glow plugs thread that I jacked bacause it is no longer a glow plug issue.
Car ran great for the 6-8 months I had it..
Started every time, never an issue (at least not related to the engine)
Monday when I got in the car, it would not start.
she turns over fine, but will not catch.
Thus far I have done:
1) 4X New Bosch Duraterm's
2) Vince Waldon's wiring pimping
3) New battery
4) Rebuilt starter
Next step is compression test.?
I have never removed the lines before so I bought the VW #3035 line wrench tool. I also bought a Harbor Freight Diesel compression tester kit.
Anything special to know before removing the lines and injectors?
(I know I should watch out for spray when I crack the lines, but are there any other concerns reguarding the pump and / or lines?)
Thanks in advance!
-Brad
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Replied to your other thread regarding injector removal...
You don't need to worry about spray when removing the lines unless the engine is running, and even then there isn't much. I doubt there will be any appreciable pressure in the lines. Just unscrew them using any suitable flare nut wrench and you're good to go. There's no need/reason to remove the retaining clamps that bolt the lines together - your best bet is to just remove all 4 as a set.
Oh yeah, a troubleshooting step I don't see below - forgive me if we've covered this in the original thread, but I'm guessing this hasn't been checked yet. Try loosening the lines at the injectors a bit and cranking it over. Wrap a rag around the lines where you've loosened them... You should get some fuel discharged from each line when cranking, if you don't the problem is on the pump side of things. If you do, then the problem is either timing or compression.
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When your doing your compression test make sure to unplug the fuel cut off solenoid. That way there will be no fuel present at all.
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keep the injector lines clean. keep everything clean! any dirt in the injection system is VERY bad.
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All great tips, thank you so much.
I will start by cracking the injector lines and verifying fuel spray at each.
That is true, I have not yet done this.
Any idea on what to expect (volume of fuel?) is appreciated.
After that, assuming I get fuel from each line
(do them all together or seperate?) then I proceed to compression?
And also, aside from cleanliness,
there is no real procedure to remove / re-install injector lines?
Thanks guys!
-Brad
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Thanks for the tips...
No copper washers or anything on the end fittings?
Ill be cracking my first line in an hour or 2!
Wish me luck!
-Brad
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MORE IMPORTANT- be careful not to break the head while removing the injectors. use a breaker bar on the socket and push against the head as opposed to pulling away from it. If the injectors are tight, you can easily break the injector boss and then you will be looking at a scrap head .
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Caveman:
My girlfriend loves that pic of the cat...
Is that actually your cat, or a pic from www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com?
Either way its funny, and made her laugh!
Off to crack the lines with the assistance of the aforementioned girlfriend!
-Brad
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yes it's from that site. way too funny .good luck with the job
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OK,
I have cracked all lines at the injectors and when turning the car over for 4-5 seconds, I see maybe two spritzes per second come out of the middle of the nut.
Can anyone enlighten me - this confirms that fuel is getting to the injectors, but does that rule out the pump as a culprit of the no start?
Assuming that meant that the pump was (apprximately) working,
I went ahead and removed all the lines in preparation for a compression test.
I was able to get them all with a 17mm line wrench and a crescent.
I covered all 16 open lines (8 on the inj lines, and injectors and pump) with aluminum foil to keep things clean.
I have hosed all of the injectors with PB Blaster,
and will continue to do that every couple of hours.
Ill be working both jobs tomorrow, no chance to do anything more than hit it with PB in the afternoon.
Sunday after work, I will take the injectors out and do a compression test.
Do I need a special socket to remove the injectors, or will a regular deep one work?
And, Other than spraying the injectors for 36 hours before removal, any other tips?
At least I keep making good progress,
and thanks to all of you taking the time to read this and offer any sage words of advice.
-Brad
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I don't know if there is a regular deep socket that will work on an injector. maybe someone can tell you otherwise ,but as far as i know it takes a special one.
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thanks,
ill grab a socket over the weekend,
pop them sunday and run a compression test.
at this point, i suppose my best case scenario is a blown headgasket, as a metal one and ARPs were already in the cards, just at a later date...
and while I am there, ill have to do rings and bearings if everything else looks good.
-brad
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more good forward progress.
All injectors came out without rendering the head useless!
It took the 1 1/16" craftsman deep socket, a wobble extension and a 24" breaker bar.
Also removed all heat shields. Came out after a good spray of brake parts cleaner.
I wrapped them all in aluminum foil as a precaution (the injectors, that is).
Compression test hopefully tomorrow after work.
what kind of numbers should I see?
Presumably the bentley is accurate?
She says 493 psi = new, 412 = wear limit, with a max differential of 73.
And of course the engine is cold, and all the oil is down in the pan.
Should I turn it over for a few seconds before beginning the test?
Thanks,
Ill post up compression numbers when I have them.
-Brad
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I wouldn't be alarmed if they are all at least 350 psi. With it cold, some of the hydraulic lifters might have bled down. I usually test all four and then test the lowest one again to see if it comes up any. Definitely more accurate to do after it's been running.
Andrew
I've noticed the 1.5's usually have 500 psi if they are in good shape, I had 2 like that. I've had two 1.6's rebored with new pistons and the most I've seen from them is about 475. All engines had resurfaced heads and new valve jobs. The 1.5's weren't even rebored, just new standard rings. I could never understand the difference especialy with the longer stroke on the 1.6.
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I use a Craftsman 1-1/16" 6 pt deep. 27mm is the metric version. It has to be deep enough to clear the return barbs.
Andrew
And also the pump on #2, I couldn't get my 27 in there and still had to adapt it down to 3/8 to clear the LDA with the extention, definately don't want to try to torque on an angle depending how far the pump advanced towards the engine. Also some heads like this Top Line have less clearance around the injector bosses and won't let the 27 I have in there, standard 1 1/16 deep well fits real nice everywhere.
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Andrew:
Any differences on the Mech head vs Hydro?
(I mean as far as compression numbers... There certainly are differences!)
And presumably the injectors are only this difficult to remove the first time,
they should only be torqued to 45lb/ft or something like that!
Compression tonight!!!
Thanks!
-Brad
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Well,
things aint exactly looking up at the moment...
First (totally cold) compression was:
100, 50, 0, 150...
I did smile, when, on the first cylinder, as soon as I turned the key, I saw a triple flaming salute from under the hood...
(the other 3 paper towels which were keeping stuff out, and had soaked overnight in PB B'laster, got set aflame by the <brand> glow plugs and spat out when I turned the key.. me heart sinks everytime flaming balls shoot out from under the hood.)
Ill try a few more times...
-b.
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WOW.....
Cylinder: ONE TWO THREE FOUR
Round 1: 150 50 0 100
(10 minute break)
Round2: 195 120 80 80
Round3: 210 130 150 60
I am pretty sure the best thing to do at this point is go ahead and take the fuel injection and intake manifolds from a gas engine, and convert it to a 1.6T gas engine... yeah, it'll be running on 3 cylinders, but whatever, number one will be hitting well!
Any other suggestions?
-Brad
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did you use any oil in the cylinder with any of those tests??? those numbers are low even for a gasser!!! :(
and why the heck is 4th getting lower, but 3rd is being resurrected? :lol:
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I put nothing in the cylinders at all...
Bentley says you ought not do a "wet" test on a diesel, as it may ignite..
I wish that were a concern!
this was totally dry, and the car has not run in a week.
However, after the first 2-3 seconds of turning it over, my oil pressure light does go out...
Any suggestions on the next direction?
Just yank it all apart and look for the broke ***?
Thanks!
-Brad
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I put nothing in the cylinders at all...
Bentley says you ought not do a "wet" test on a diesel, as it may ignite..
I wish that were a concern!
this was totally dry, and the car has not run in a week.
However, after the first 2-3 seconds of turning it over, my oil pressure light does go out...
Any suggestions on the next direction?
Just yank it all apart and look for the broke ***?
Thanks!
-Brad
with numbers like that i suspect burnt valves. or broken piston rings. i don't think you have to worry about lighting the engine up by putting oil in the engine. those numbers wouldn't even light up diesel properly atomized in the cylinders... as for the amount of oil i think less than a teaspoon. if compression numbers go up, then its the rings. if not, then its the valves (which are my best guess)
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I cant thank you guys enough for your sage advice.
The thing that still throws me is that the car ran GREAT one day and then just did not start the next.
Ill try the test again tonight with a tsp of oil in each before the test.
Is a timing failure still on the table as an option?
Thanks,
-Brad
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Andrew:
Thank you so much for the help...
I had not yet checked the timing belt,
as the belt and tensioner are only 10k old.
But at this point, I certainly will.
Ill look for intake restriction,
but I think it unlikely (aside from bad turbo) because I have a 3" pipe with a K&N on it....
(Ill spin the turbo too, but that ought not contribute to low compression)
The thing that throws me is that it ran great the day before,
and the problem is one that is common to all 4 cylinders..
(In my head I am ruling out rings, unless they all broke simultaneously, and burned valves?)
THANKS!
-Brad
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And after confirming the timing belt and pulleys are still OK,
no intake restriction, and a free turbo,
am I good to tear this thing apart,
or should I try to find the tools to do further testing (leakdown) to confirm the problem?
I am assuming my problem will be visible to the naked eye.
-Brad
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And after confirming the timing belt and pulleys are still OK,
no intake restriction, and a free turbo,
am I good to tear this thing apart,
or should I try to find the tools to do further testing (leakdown) to confirm the problem?
I am assuming my problem will be visible to the naked eye.
-Brad
even if the timing belt looks okay it might have jumped time. you'd need to pull the valve cover, and set the engine to TDC by looking at the flywheel.
i'm gonna go out on a limb here... but you have an '85 engine, with mechanical lifters right? so possibly you need to get your valves shimmed as well? they usually don't just go suddenly though... more like a slow death.
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[quote="jtanguay
even if the timing belt looks okay it might have jumped time. you'd need to pull the valve cover, and set the engine to TDC by looking at the flywheel.
i'm gonna go out on a limb here... but you have an '85 engine, with mechanical lifters right? so possibly you need to get your valves shimmed as well? they usually don't just go suddenly though... more like a slow death.[/quote]
Tonight, I will roll the motor to TDC,
at the cam,
and confirm that my pump and flywheel are still in line.
(assuming they are....) my timing is good, and
Im pulling the head. (I regret the GP job now)
Jtanguay, I think the valves may totally need adjusted (shimmed) but I also agree with the theory that I am looking for something major and catastrophic. The car went from running great one day to not starting at all the next.
I am also still hopeful that the 19PSI was running may have killed the headgasket... or is this just wishful thinking?
Also, are there any special instructions towards protecting my IP from damage due to the elements? It will be sitting for at least a week or so, and I want to minimize collateral damage.
Thanks!
-Brad
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I am also still hopeful that the 19PSI was running may have killed the headgasket... or is this just wishful thinking?
Also, are there any special instructions towards protecting my IP from damage due to the elements? It will be sitting for at least a week or so, and I want to minimize collateral damage.
make sure the openings are blocked off. plastic should do and it should be clean. making sure there is no air inside the pump by filling it with some ATF will also help. air is the real killer of pumps. unless it was really dry.
theres a slight possibility that your head gasket is gone. but they don't blow when the engine is off. so if it ran fine when you parked it, it should run fine after. did you install head studs, or just the head bolts? did you torque them or did you get a shop to do it? were they re-torqued after 1000km?
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Damn... This moved form a glow plug thread to a no run thread, and its looking like that may become my motor build thread!
I currently have small pieces of aluminum foil covering each of the 4 outlets, and a big Tapcon screw in the return line from injectors.
I can find something better to seal the 4 outlets, like a vacuum cap of appropriate size.
If the pump is sitting for a week or 2, (already 3-4 days) should I fill it with ATF?
which hole do you fill in?
Also, JT,
Headgasket and bolts are of unknown age and condition.
That is one of the reasons I think it is suspect... it may even be original (the ODO on this car reads 80.000 mi, but it was n/w when I bought it, and the guy I bought it from said the car had 180k on it..... so I know nothing!)
Again, I know extra boost can trouble headgaskets and bolts, and I set it at (what I thought was) a conservative 19PSI, but people certainly give you funny looks when you tell them you just added a MBC and turned it to 19... Silly gassers!
Off to find TDC and verify timing!
-Brad
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well, i guess good news is relative at this point,
but my timing is all fine.
Camshaft lock drops in,
and then my 7/16" socket drops right in its hole, in the pulley
and the flywheel was 5mm off until I bumped it, and then it is perfect.
Therefore, We go inside the cylinder... (thats right, you guys are coming with me!!)
I just dropped 53 Willys a line about the whiz-bang MLS gasket for my motor.
Also seemingly banging my head against a wall to get the ARPs for under $130. Ill pull the trigger on those soon.
The worst sentence I ever say is "while we are there"...
I said that about my 1974 VW thing about 5 years ago (needed floorpans), and I plan to take it off the rotisserie this summer. (but in my defense, I work 50-70 hrs/wk consistently, and then also play with vws)
-Brad
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And I have really been missing this lately:
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/Jettaseat.jpg)
(Thats the cockpit of my poor TD Jetta)
Recaro, Schroth and VW is a nice combo!
The only interface I have had with that seat in a week is being careful not to get my greasy hands on it when turning the car over for troubleshooting!!
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well, i guess good news is relative at this point,
but my timing is all fine.
Camshaft lock drops in,
and then my 7/16" socket drops right in its hole, in the pulley
and the flywheel was 5mm off until I bumped it, and then it is perfect.
Therefore, We go inside the cylinder... (thats right, you guys are coming with me!!)
I just dropped 53 Willys a line about the whiz-bang MLS gasket for my motor.
Also seemingly banging my head against a wall to get the ARPs for under $130. Ill pull the trigger on those soon.
The worst sentence I ever say is "while we are there"...
I said that about my 1974 VW thing about 5 years ago (needed floorpans), and I plan to take it off the rotisserie this summer. (but in my defense, I work 50-70 hrs/wk consistently, and then also play with vws)
-Brad
I got mine at Summit Racing at Christmas for around $100 I believe it was. Probably one of the best things you can get for these motors and their gasket problems.
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Thanks, Ill try summit.
-Brad
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Well, I just bought the ARPs from Summit.
Just the head studs.
I will wait to see how deep down the rabbit hole I go on this,
before considering rod bolts, or mains.
Next thing is HG.
I am waffling on getting the one 53Willys had made,
or just AAZ...
I can get a new Victor Reinz AAZ gasket at $37...
(all of those are MLS, right?)
-Brad
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Also,
I have access to a 1.6 NA longblock,
but am unable to find all of the differences between NA and TD in the 1.6.
I know the Oil squirters are not present on the NA,
but I know the CR is also the same..
Are the squirters the only difference?
(and I thought you could retrofit squirters with a lil machining to the block)
If that is the case, I may buy the motor, and send that head out to have it checked and reworked, just to expedite things.
Head hopefully comes off today!
Thanks!
-Brad
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Also,
I have access to a 1.6 NA longblock,
but am unable to find all of the differences between NA and TD in the 1.6.
I know the Oil squirters are not present on the NA,
but I know the CR is also the same..
Are the squirters the only difference?
(and I thought you could retrofit squirters with a lil machining to the block)
If that is the case, I may buy the motor, and send that head out to have it checked and reworked, just to expedite things.
Head hopefully comes off today!
Thanks!
-Brad
apparently the crank is a little bit stronger on the TD, but the later hydraulic versions might just use the same crank in both N/A & TD. drilling the oil squirters isn't really that simple, but would be a solution to your problem. at that point you might as well just punch out your block and install new pistons & rings.
i still think that your sealing issue has to do with the valves... so a little bit of head work, and then you're off to the races.
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That is my second best scenario..
I would love to leave the block alone,
and have a very good cylinder head guy locally.
Anyone upgrade the valvetrain on the mechanical lifter engine?
I know the mech head is the revver of the two, and I know
Techtonics makes some stuff for the mech. head.
-Brad
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That is my second best scenario..
I would love to leave the block alone,
and have a very good cylinder head guy locally.
Anyone upgrade the valvetrain on the mechanical lifter engine?
I know the mech head is the revver of the two, and I know
Techtonics makes some stuff for the mech. head.
-Brad
don't know if you can really upgrade it, but i'd imagine for a nominal price, anythings possible :lol:. one thing i'd recommend with your engine is running something like ZDDP or lubro moly's anti wear additive. that should keep the lifters fresh and in spec for longer. best part about those engines is the power they make, and the fact that the valves don't stick. worse thing is the noise, and the maintenance. maybe in the future i'll switch over.
so fingers crossed that you have a blown head gasket and or leaking valves (much cheaper than getting a whole new block)
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Well,
I pulled the head, and saw......
Nothing major!
(I kind of wish I could see the issue!)
The head bolts felt as though they required slightly uneven force to remove.
The pistons look great, and cylinder walls on 2&3 are great! (I'm too tired to turn the bottom end over tonight and look at 1&4)
All of the valves seemed to drop down flat, the cam turns smoothly,
Typical tiny cracks between the valves, consistent with pics I have seen here.
I did however, find a bunch of small metal shavings in the low spots in the head...
Anyone hazard a guess?
Now I will try to get the head stripped (maybe tomorrow)
and get it to the head shop as soon as I can (Mon or Tues)...
Hopefully they can find something!
Any other things to look for?
Sorry, I wish I could post pics, but my camera seems to have no flash now.
Thanks!
-Brad
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pics would really help. how does the head gasket look? are there any gaps in the metal rings?
make sure to have the head pressure tested and checked for flatness. if it passes both of those tests, then it should be good aside from guides/seals.
if you have a feeler gauge that would be beneficial in determining the piston to wall clearance. that way we can see if your engine is within spec. this is a great time to refresh the motor with new piston rings. doing so will also determine whether you have a broken ring or not as well. a good way to squeeze some extra life out of an old motor :)
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if the head is not trashed, and just needs resurfacing,
or maybe some exhaust valves,
Ill likely do new Valve stem seals,
new rings and Rod bearings (leave the crank and block in the car)
And along with the ARPs and whatever I can figure out for metal HG,
(have not yet heard back from 53 Willys to see if his HG is up and running)
I should have a pretty decent package for reasonably short monies.
(Any other stuff I should do while I am here?)
Ill work on pictures.
Try to take some during the day.
And ill borrow or buy a feeler gauge and we can see whats what on the bottom end.
I know I also need to measure piston protrusion now so I can get the HG on the way.
Thanks again,
-Brad
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Got pictures:
Any thought or opinions?
Sorry if the pics are too big, I thought detail would be preferred!
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine1.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine2.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine3.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine4.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine5.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine6.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine7.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine8.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine10.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine11.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine12.jpg)
This is as good a shot as I could get of the "glitter" in the head.
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/JettaEngine9.jpg)
As always, any help is appreciated!
-Brad
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is it me or does that look like theres some nasty ring ridge there? and the HG does look a little suspect in this case... do you have a feeler gauge, or a caliper gauge to test the bores?
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There is a slight "ring ridge"
if by that you mean a little ridge in the cylinder, probably about where the oil ring stops at full travel.
It is very slight to the feel, but I know that can be significant when multiplied by two
I am trying to get my hands on a caliper to measure the bores.
A feeler gauge I can easily get for cheap, so Ill try to get one.
Thanks!
-Brad
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I will be able to clean it and make it look much better, but I am confident there is a perceptible ridge in the metal, and it is not just buildup.
Working on getting a Micrometer...
so much money spent on tools so far! (and I havent even gotten deep tool-wise, yet)
I guess the cost effective thing to do is keep it forever!
-Brad
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I got the head stripped down except for the cam,
and Ill be dropping it off at the Cylinder head shop Monday.
Man, that thing is dirty!
If the head is keepable, Ill be looking to do valve stem seals and guides,
and whatever else it needs.
If it is badly damaged, I would love to look for an AAZ head.
Put big valves in it, and have it extrude honed....
but I digress.
more later,
Brad
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It appears that there is rust on some of the metal surfaces of the HG. Was this there when you took the head off? There is also an area of the first closeup of the HG at the left front where the surface looks almost as if there is carbon/combustion across the sealing surface. There are a few areas that look to me as if there wasn't a 100% seal.
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Yes, I agree about the black marks over the sealing rings for the cylinders.
(and thanks for taking the time to look and help me!)
It is difficult to tell, as despite my best attempts, the head did not come off "clean"
(or in one pull)
I had the bright idea to take the head without removing the turbo and manifolds, and when I got the last head bolt out, I tried to pick it up and about gave myself a hernia.
After 10 minutes or trying to lift it from every angle, and setting it on an off the block many times, I called my buddy to help lift.
Unfortunately, that means that I cannot really rely on the HG for data.
I can however count on the low compression,
and know that if my head and HG and block all hold air, the motor will run again!
Thanks,
BRAD
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OK,
I am sorry, but I have never been here on a motor before.
(well, I have replaced visibly failed components, but not much measuring!)
I now own a feeler gauge, and dont know where to stick it!
I am presuming I am measuring the gap between piston top and cylinder?
or rings and cylinder?
A little advice here would be appreciated!
THANKS!
-Brad
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OK,
I am sorry, but I have never been here on a motor before.
(well, I have replaced visibly failed components, but not much measuring!)
I now own a feeler gauge, and dont know where to stick it!
I am presuming I am measuring the gap between piston top and cylinder?
or rings and cylinder?
A little advice here would be appreciated!
THANKS!
-Brad
get the feeler gauge, and dip it in a bit of oil and then stick it in between the piston and cylinder wall. go until you find the biggest size that will fit in between, and then that is the gap. alternatively you could simply use a caliper gauge to measure the cylinders. with the caliper gauge you want to measure both front & back and then left and right so you can see if there is too much ovaling of the cylinders. a little is okay but too much is bad.
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Sweet, thanks,
Ill get out there in a few to see what I got!
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OK, Just a quick minute with cylinder #1 and #4,
I found #1 took a .406mm
#3 took a .356mm
that is what would slide in between the cylinder wall and piston, but not past the first ring. The way the leaves of the gauge slid into the gap, I was trying to be careful not to mar the cylinder wall.
I will go back and check 2 and 3 in a minute.
-Brad
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OK, Just a quick minute with cylinder #1 and #4,
I found #1 took a .406mm
#3 took a .356mm
that is what would slide in between the cylinder wall and piston, but not past the first ring. The way the leaves of the gauge slid into the gap, I was trying to be careful not to mar the cylinder wall.
I will go back and check 2 and 3 in a minute.
-Brad
well so far its looking good... #1 had the best compression, but the most cyl wear...
76.48mm pistons work in 76.51mm bores, so you have a clearance of 0.03mm with a maximum wear limit of 0.07mm. hmmm seems like you're way off on the clearance, but you can get away with honing the walls and installing new rings. getting the block bored out and new pistons will set you back quite a bit... and isn't a small job.
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OK, so I definitely should not be able to get that particular leaf of the feeler gauge in the gap at all, then? (it doesnt go in too far!)
well so far its looking good... #1 had the best compression, but the most cyl wear...
And by looking good, you mean like we can keep the pistons and just do rings?
Thanks, JT!
I totally appreciate your help!
Ill get back with numbers from all sides on all 4 pistons.
I also suppose to be fair I should try this in the middle of the cylinder, so my "ring ridge" does not make things look better than they are?
-Brad
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OK, so I definitely should not be able to get that particular leaf of the feeler gauge in the gap at all, then? (it doesnt go in too far!)
well so far its looking good... #1 had the best compression, but the most cyl wear...
And by looking good, you mean like we can keep the pistons and just do rings?
Thanks, JT!
I totally appreciate your help!
Ill get back with numbers from all sides on all 4 pistons.
I also suppose to be fair I should try this in the middle of the cylinder, so my "ring ridge" does not make things look better than they are?
-Brad
just installing new rings isn't the "right" way of doing it, but the right way costs a lot $$$ and is very involved... most of the work is just stripping the motor and then re-assembling. on my old 1.6TD i had new rings put in, and it made a big difference with the way it ran and lowered oil consumption.
yea... the ring ridge will give you false readings. and it should be removed. with the readings you're showing, i wonder if you couldn't just buy oversized pistons and run it without boring it out?
maybe i was being a bit optimistic when i said it was looking good... as in the cylinder with the most wear should have shown a lower compression PSI. there are a few variables that can control that though... one of which being a head gasket failure.
if the feeler gauge bends enough then you can stick it in. the oil will help from damaging the components. it should be able to gently slide in without much effort at all.
-
The head is now at the head shop.
For $100 they clean it, dis assemble it, and check it for straight and cracks.
He was familiar with the cracks inbetween the valves, and said as long as it does not go through to the port, they will just peen them to keep them from spreading.
I trust them, and if it needs guides, they will install, and I want new valve stem seals regardless.
They also may have some help on a custom made MLS gasket. They know of a few companies who can make them.
Now, my only concern is the block.
I need to figure out how deep I am going: Rings and bearings, or punch it out and go up on pistons. I may have a good line on NOS oversize pistons, which may help lessen the blow.
Is the feeler gauge the best bet towards determining the block's condition,
or should I get a micrometer to measure the inside of the cylinder wall?
And, my ARP's showed up today... very cool!
Thanks,
BRAD
-
The head is now at the head shop.
For $100 they clean it, dis assemble it, and check it for straight and cracks.
He was familiar with the cracks inbetween the valves, and said as long as it does not go through to the port, they will just peen them to keep them from spreading.
I trust them, and if it needs guides, they will install, and I want new valve stem seals regardless.
They also may have some help on a custom made MLS gasket. They know of a few companies who can make them.
Now, my only concern is the block.
I need to figure out how deep I am going: Rings and bearings, or punch it out and go up on pistons. I may have a good line on NOS oversize pistons, which may help lessen the blow.
Is the feeler gauge the best bet towards determining the block's condition,
or should I get a micrometer to measure the inside of the cylinder wall?
And, my ARP's showed up today... very cool!
Thanks,
BRAD
the feeler gauge is an okay method to measure the clearance, but isn't the best.. the micrometer is the best and provides better accuracy.
before you go and buy new pistons, make sure to take all measurements of the cylinder bore (side to side & front & back) and take the largest number to determine which size piston to buy. take into consideration the labour involved in taking the engine out and dismantling it and then re-assembling. if you go that route, change the intermediate shaft bearings as well.
it all depends on how much you want to spend, and how long you intend on keeping the vehicle. i would only invest that kind of money on something i plan to keep.
-
Well, I will have a "cylinder mic"
by the end of the week.
I really dont want to rebore and go up on the pistons,
my plan was never to have this be the one and only motor ever in the car.
However, at this point, I just need to get my car back, and will do what I must to accomplish that.
Part of me just wants to do what I need to do in the head,
ARPs and MLS,
and do rings and rod bearings and hope for the best.
Am I crazy?
-Brad
-
Part of me just wants to do what I need to do in the head,
ARPs and MLS,
and do rings and rod bearings and hope for the best.
Am I crazy?
-Brad
nope. i had rings done on my old 1.6 and it worked out fine. the pistons were pretty sloppy in the cylinders too... probably as bad or worse than yours, but it ran good and i boosted it to 20 psi regularly.
even on my 1.9TDI longblock i bought i just did a re-ring. thing is, that the block was still within spec (came from Europe, where they use high quality oils... and much better diesel) so that was awesome.
i think your best option (if you want to have a fully fresh 1.6TD) would be to source a 1.6TD with really bad compression and then punch it out to 3rd oversize with new pistons, and then transfer over all your junk including the head you are reworking. put the old head on your current block and sell that to recoup some money, or even just rebuild it and sell it and recoup more money. i was trying to do that, but i got screwed over royally because of where i was storing the stuff :(. there are deals to be had, but the problem is that you need to be there when they happen. :lol:
-
My biggest issue is the cost of a darn 1.6 longblock!
I have been unable to find them below $1000 (many can be had betweek $2k-$3k!), and
that is just crazy to me!
(I remember when you could not get rid of a diesel block for $100!)
I have been steady looking for a cheap MF code block,
but they dont seem to be out there.
If I am spending a grand, I would rather spend it on my engine than another.
Ill mic out the block, and if it is close, probably go for the rings and bearings.
Thanks!
-Brad
-
wow.
I saw it and hesitated for a moment ("well, I can put it on the card...")
and thought better of it.
My strong hope is that my engine is not that bad off.
but then again, i had hoped not to have to take the head off,
and then i got over it.
-Brad
-
Act fast (not mine, no affiliation). That's about the cost of the parts and machine work for a rebuild, say nothing of the labor.
small link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-1-6L-Turbo-Diesel-Engine-Factory-VW-Remanufactured_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1171Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem120389841505QQitemZ120389841505QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
wow! yea i don't think you really can do much better than that all said & done. it seems pricey, but well worth it, and you can trust the OEM parts/quality.
they said that the pics are from a 1.9TD, but they are in fact from a 1.9TDI :lol:
-
I totally agree, but recent events have really strapped my car money.
Anyone want to buy a 1992 Jetta gas car at $600?
runs and drives fine, with coilovers, but not much more.
That would free up plenty of capital...
-
And Hmmm.....
I can get rod bearings from WorldPac for $12, same day,
but I cannot get a ring set...?
Probably should contact Myke?
-Brad
-
ok,
Ill hold tight until I mic the cylinders,
and then see what you guys think.
I called my buddy and he can have a 3" cylinder mic for me thursday...
I guess Ill just go ahead and pull the pistons and rods,
and look for visual things.
Ill try to get on that tomorrow.
thanks,
-Brad
-
i wonder if he can get oversized rings to work? that would surely make the ring job last longer. at least that would get you by for a while.
-
im liking the sound of that idea!
The head shop says they may also have a line on getting an MLS made for the MF code block and head.
They said they would call me in a few days with the report.
-Brad
-
Oil is drained and the pan dropped.
I may be feeling up to pulling pistons and rods tonight,
we shall see...
-
I got some good news finally:
The head shop got back to me today, and said the head was in great shape.
Totally fine except for 4 bad exhaust valve guides (he says it is common for diesel)...
They will have it together next week (have to order the guides).
$272 labor + $16 for all guides. not too bad!
They are also trying to find me an MLS gasket,
from a headgasket supplier, appropriate for a "MF" they are also not fans of plugging or welding the head to do an AAZ, so well see what they come up with!
(ill keep you all posted there)
BUT,
this means that the head was not the issue, which leaves me with:
Headgasket or Block (rings or cylinders)...
Pistons and rods will come out tomorrow,
and Ill get some pics up.
Thanks!
-Brad
-
i'm going more with head gasket... the rings would have to be completely shot to hell to give 0 compression. i think zukgod had a broken ring and his car still ran...
i'd expect something in the range of 350 psi if it was previously running good, but with sloppy pistons.
so what is the head shop doing for that price quote? just valve guides? or that and lightly skimming the head?
-
That is the flat rate for "custom head work"
which includes:
complete disassembly, cleaning of, and magnafluxing the head,
Inspection of each part per specs,
reassembly with any new parts needed,
and lapping the valves.
They will ensure the head is totally flat as well.
They guarantee the whole head for like 6 months.
I totally agree with the head gasket theory now.
(unless I pull out the slugs and all rings are gone, but then I would have a decrease in performance...)
Good reason to do the MLS and ARP treatment. I really really want to gain entry into the "30+PSI" club...
a question:
I'm thinking I should replace the oil pump as the motor is old, and I have a nice freshened motor to take care of now.
Is there a good upgrade part here? ARP sells bolts for that too, are the stock ones a concern?
Thanks!
-Brad
-
Here's a few shots with the pistons out...
they look OK, (cylinders and pistons)
but I really don't know what I am looking for.
Still trying to get my hands on a loaner cylinder mic.
The second ring on cylinders #1 & #2 was broken, but still in place.
Tell me what you guys are thinking...
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/engine/block1.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/engine/block2.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/engine/block3.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/engine/block4.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/engine/block5.jpg)
*Should I be worried about the slight depression I tried to hi light here? Right on the front, at the crown of the piston.
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/engine/block6.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/engine/block7.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/engine/block8.jpg)
Thanks!
-Brad
-
did you number the rods & all rod pieces or keep them together? (they will not fit the wrong pieces)
it looks to me like you need some new injector nozzles. from all the burning on the pistons.
-
OH CRAP!
I am supposed to keep them together?!?!?!
.... Just kidding.
I lightly scratched the number on each piston, and kept the rod caps in the correct orientataion.
Should I send the injectors out and have them done as well?
I have no limit to the amount of money I am willing to spend on this old piece of crap.... If I spend 5X the cost of what I bought the car for, that makes me really happy!
(actually, I am just kidding about that one, and dont let me griping keep you from giving me accurate info which is only meant to assist me!... I just get bummed sometimes!)
If they need to go, I think Giles or BlkBoostedTruck are the go-to guys, right?
Upgrade the nozzles as well?
Thanks!
-Brad
-
OH CRAP!
I am supposed to keep them together?!?!?!
.... Just kidding.
I lightly scratched the number on each piston, and kept the rod caps in the correct orientataion.
Should I send the injectors out and have them done as well?
I have no limit to the amount of money I am willing to spend on this old piece of crap.... If I spend 5X the cost of what I bought the car for, that makes me really happy!
(actually, I am just kidding about that one, and dont let me griping keep you from giving me accurate info which is only meant to assist me!... I just get bummed sometimes!)
If they need to go, I think Giles or BlkBoostedTruck are the go-to guys, right?
Upgrade the nozzles as well?
Thanks!
-Brad
good thing you kept the parts together and marked them. i didn't know that at first, but learned quite a bit when i stopped by the machine shop doing my block/head :lol:
with the current exchange rate Giles might be about the same price as Duane. either guys should be able to fix you up. genuine bosch nozzles are what you want though. with new nozzles your engine will run smoother and not eat away at your pistons. nows a good time to also inspect the bottom end bearings and check for any wear. they're not too expensive, so its good for peace of mind to have them replaced.
if you plan on owning the car for a while, or another vw in the future, then you might want to get ARP rod studs. otherwise you'll need to buy new rod bolts (stretch) and they aren't that cheap considering its a replacement item... i think removing the rod bolts 3-4 times would pay for the ARP rod studs.
-
I already bought the ARP's (from Summit Racing)
so they are going in.
I was going to do the rod bearings (slight wear)
but leave the crank in.
My current parts list:
-ARP 251-4701 (already have)
-MLS gasket (still looking!)
-Rings, rod bearings, associated gaskets (getting with Myke for these)
-Good as new head.
Let me know if you think Ive got it covered.
Im still trying to get a cylinder mic, but I also will assemble if I cannot get one.
The car ran great, and cylinder wear is certainly a slow progression. I am still looking for a catastrophic thing.
-
Update:
The head will be back form the head shop monday.
(4X exhaust valve guides, and 8X Valve stem seals)
Is there an easy way to remove the timing belt cover on the motor side?
I have most of the hardware off of it, but the cover is still retained by hardware that seems to go thru the injection pump?
If that does not come off, Ill have to remove the T-belt tensioner stud to get the head on with the new head studs.
Suggestions?
-Brad
-
you don't need to have the head studs installed to put the head on. just take an old head bolt (and cut a slot in it to remove it) and cut it so it only sticks out a little bit so the head gasket stays aligned. install the head studs and remove the old head bolts and install those studs, then torque 8)
removing that metal piece can be quite a PITA, and should be avoided whenever possible.
did you get the cylinders checked with the caliper gauge? or buy new rings? don't forget the possibility of running oversized rings to keep you going a bit longer.
-
That is the flat rate for "custom head work"
which includes:
complete disassembly, cleaning of, and magnafluxing the head,
Inspection of each part per specs,
reassembly with any new parts needed,
and lapping the valves.
They will ensure the head is totally flat as well.
They guarantee the whole head for like 6 months.
I totally agree with the head gasket theory now.
(unless I pull out the slugs and all rings are gone, but then I would have a decrease in performance...)
Good reason to do the MLS and ARP treatment. I really really want to gain entry into the "30+PSI" club...
a question:
I'm thinking I should replace the oil pump as the motor is old, and I have a nice freshened motor to take care of now.
Is there a good upgrade part here? ARP sells bolts for that too, are the stock ones a concern?
Thanks!
-Brad
You really should try to get that bore measured to see if you can use an oversize ring first. The first size piston for a re-bore is .020 or .5 m/m larger from all the suppliers I've seen. I don't know if there is anything lower than that available and you're surely not worn to that step yet. I know for more popular engines you can get bearings 1 or 2 thousandths or so undersize but I think rings go no less than .010 in oversize. Someone else may know the answer but either way it needs measured if you go other than the stock size ring. Good luck getting into the 30 psi. club, I'd b happy if I could just get into the 10 one right now and everything I have is new or rebuilt including the turbo itself and 500 psi. compression. :cry:
-
Thanks guys!
I am replacing the ring set,
because of possible cylinder wear, (no mic available, im just running with it anyway!)
and the broken rings on #1&3.
Rod bearings and bolts are a consequence of piston removal.
I am also working on the theory that something catastrophic happened to prevent the car from running.
It would have never driven on those compression numbers, and the car ran very well before it stopped. It also ran well, because I was pushing 19PSI thru what appears to be a very tired stock original (?) head gasket.
I can only figure this is a headgasket failure, no obvious signs of other damage.
That is why I am not worried about the cylinders.
It may bite me, but this is (already) what the budget allows.
money goes quick here (inside the motor).
There are a few things I am not doing that I should:
1) rebore and upsize pistons
2) IM shaft bearings and seals
3) main bearings (im not even pulling the crank!)
This is a driveway job to hold the bottom end together for a year or 2.
Then Ill build a block, but Ill build it to a higher level.
My head is like new,
my ARPs will come with me to the next block.
I also need a giles super pump, and turbo upgrade, but......
one thing at a time!
-Brad
-
If you can I think the IM shaft seal is about 7.00 roughly and very easy to do if you have the pulley off, I would, but that is just me. If you haven't done the crank bolt either then I would do that and put the same seal in there and then you won't have to worry about leaks there. If you are rebuilding in a short bit then save the seals for then I guess.
-
for Florida temps, you should be just fine with a re-ring. with the lower compression numbers, you should be able to run higher boost, but you'll have increased blowby.
the int shaft bearings are a very good idea, but they should be okay for the next 2 years.
-
The wear limit for piston to cylinder clearance is .003". I would be very surprised (unless that picture of the ridge at the top of the cylinder is very deceptive) that he has far surpassed that. If he is out of that spec then overbore and new pistons are the solution.
Just out of curiosity is there an oversize ring available other than the .020 which is the 1'st rebore size that I see everywhere. I've heard of people in the past on other engine types to take a .010 oversize ring and file the end gaps to the right spec and use them but I don't know if there even is such a thing for these engines. If it was mine I'd just rebore it anyway as far as that goes and have the new pistons on top of it with the right clearances everywhere including the ring lands. They might not be worn but by the time they are cleaned out they can be really off spec. I've even seen people use hacksaw blades in them and then worry about small scratch somewhere else :lol:
-
Wait, new hangup on re-assembly:
Con rod bolts & nuts are listed as a stretch bolt,
but not available from any of my wholesalers..
Any ideas?
Just go ARP, or re use??
Thanks,
Brad
-
Wait, new hangup on re-assembly:
Con rod bolts & nuts are listed as a stretch bolt,
but not available from any of my wholesalers..
Any ideas?
Just go ARP, or re use??
Thanks,
Brad
go ARP if you intend on rebuilding in the future. buying the stretch bolts about 3-4 times will probably equal the cost of the ARP's. do NOT re-use the stretch bolts unless you want a rod to punch a hole through your block!!!
-
Well, good point.
I do not, in fact, want to have a nice inspection hole to watch the crank spin, so I will opt for the new bolts.
I can find originals on line at like $60-70,
so Ill be buying the ARP rod bolts ($100) and oil pan bolts too ($20), just for kicks.
I am having a bit of a hard time cleaning out the ring groove
(lots of carbon and oil in there)
any insight beyond a broken ring and some brake parts cleaner?
Bummer about the bolts,
another week delayed BEFORE I can order the HG....
On a better note, though, Giles just got done with my injectors yesterday, and they should be back in a week.
Thanks guys!
-Brad
-
dammit, this sucks.
Totally dead in the water.
My work's STUPID BUSY season kicked off the last 2 weeks,
so my hours go from like 45-55 and I am always spent when I get home.... (retail swimming pool store)
I havent even ordered my conrod bolts yet!
(ill do that as soon as i leave here)
Im going to scoop up the oil pump bolts as well.
Then hopefully next week I can do the bottom end assembly.
Any advice on a "Ridge reamer"?
-Brad
-
you could try a propane torch to burn out the deposits in the ring lands. only a few seconds though as to not overheat the area. i'd go heat then penetrating fluid and then heat (keep cycling it)
but someone might have a better idea.
-
Thanks, JT!
One more question:
Based on Myke_W's advice, I am going to re-assemble without replacing rod bolts.
Any other folks back me up on this move?
I am worried, because I think if I thought I should replace them, and do not, that they will fail (and take out the block)...
But if you guys say you have done it in the past with good results, Ill ride with it.
Also, Injectors showed up today from Giles!
Hooray!!!!!
Thanks!
-Brad
-
Thanks, JT!
One more question:
Based on Myke_W's advice, I am going to re-assemble without replacing rod bolts.
Any other folks back me up on this move?
I am worried, because I think if I thought I should replace them, and do not, that they will fail (and take out the block)...
But if you guys say you have done it in the past with good results, Ill ride with it.
Also, Injectors showed up today from Giles!
Hooray!!!!!
Thanks!
-Brad
after reading about someones nice 1.9 block being ruined by a rod going through it, i wouldn't take the chance, but to each their own. the rod bolts are pretty damn expensive though, and i'm kinda kicking myself for not going with ARP. the peace of mind of knowing i can remove them anytime for whatever reason and as many times as i want... well is empowering :lol:
VW says to replace the bolts so I did it. but they also say to replace all kinds of other bolts that don't really need to be, such as the camshaft bolt.
if you do decide to re-use them, just make sure you follow the right torque and 1/4 turn.
-
Now I am even more nervous.
My issue is that stock bolts will be over $100 from the dealership,
and not available from local parts suppliers.
ARPs are $110,
but I cant find anyone with them in stock!
(or at least anyone I feel comfortable giving my CC# to!!)
I am going to assemble the bottom end with new piston rings and rod bearings tomorrow and Fri,
to check piston protrusion
(i dont even have my Taiwan (ala 53 Willys) gasket on the way yet!)
After measuring, and ordering the HG,
Ill have a week to kill.
Any suggestions for finding the ARPs?
-Brad
-
I got mine from headbolts.com
fast service and good shipping etc...
-
Done.
They ship USPS, so I guess 3-5 working days?
I hope they actually have them in stock,
not just take the money and order them.
I figure, why go through all this and not replace rod bolts...
I talked to my friend, who advised me to buy the 3 notch gasket now and measure the protrusion later and hope we are right.
Probably a safe assumption, as I am pulling a 3 notch off, and the car ran great before.
Damn, im gonna end up spending a grand on this thing,
but it will run Right!!
The worst part is the wait..
Off to Gasketstogo!!!!
-Brad
-
this is frustrating!
I dont have a microphone for my computer!
I can call the guy (@gasketstogo.com), and he says "Hello?"
but he wont respond in the chat.
(who knows if I am even working the damn program right!)
Ill have to just email him and go from there!
-Brad
-
Well,
I have established contact with John at gasketstogo.
I am ordering a 1.61mm (= 3 notch)
gasket in MLS....
let the good times roll!
-brad
-
i don't remember my rod bolts being $100 even from the dealer. i wish i could find the receipt... they are pretty damn close to that figure though!!! which is why i'm kicking myself for not waiting and going with ARP :(
-
I could get the bolts at the dealership for $120,
and online for like $60-70,
but still had to go ARP....
John @g.t.g. will be making my gasket this week or next,
and shipping it straightaway!
Then ill really have something!!
-Brad
-
for the price of those custom gaskets i'd rather just use a piece of rubber to block that hole. either way it doesn't really see any real pressure. but from what i've been hearing, AAZ gaskets can range from $30-60 so its a toss up really.
if only there was a higher demand for these special gaskets, the price could come down.
-
I was of the impression that because I have a mechanical head and block,
I need to plug a drain (albeit an unnecessary one)
in the head and block.
I would rather not permanently modify the head or block, if it is possible.
Also, there is a slight decrease in compression due to larger bore?
I spent weeks reading 53Willys, ZukGod1, and as many of the headgasket threads I could find with mech head and block.
I hope that is accurate.
Otherwise I just wasted $120!
-Brad
-
i forget who did it, but someone put rubber to block the oil & coolant port, and was successful.
-
I would totally rather spend $150 and be sure,
than $40-50 (AAZ) and some permatex and crossed fingers.
Based on the way 53Willys had to torque that thing down,
I will never have a headgasket concern again!!
Now I have a month to get Everything else in order.
I want to be in a position to get the HG, slap it together and get back to Driving!
So far all I have done is polish the first half of my Downpipe!
(but it looks niiiice!)
-Brad
-
Here is the pile of parts I currently have in my dining room:
Totally gone through head, guaranteed true w/ new exhaust guides and valve stem seals,
Injectors rebuilt by Giles,
ARP Head studs
ARP con rod bolts,
New oil pump, Pan gasket with windage, rubber valve cover conversion,
Piston rings and rod bearings
Just waiting on the headgasket,
and then on to assembly!
Keep your fingers crossed for me though,
Im certainly not out of the woods yet!
-Brad
-
HOORAY! HOORAY!
It is a glorious day when John from gasketstogo.com sends you an email and tells you that your MLS headgasket is done and will leave Thailand tomorrow!
(but then it is also my 10-14 day notice to get back to work!! I gotta get it moved to the shop for assembly...)
I really miss my car!!
-Brad
-
Update:
Received the gasket form John two weeks ago,
to find he accidentally made one for 1.9 AAZ....
He was really really cool about it and offered to refund my money right then,
but I opted to wait for the proper gasket...
Other than that, I am chomping at the bit to re-assemble!
-Brad
-
The right gasket arrived last week,
and its time to assemble!
Long day today.
did not get started until 7Pm,
but I got the block surface cleaned,
and used a set of honing stones and then a ball hone to smooth out the cylinders.
Cleaned everything a million times,
checked my compression ring gap:
#2 was within spec, and the others were not to the wear limit, (good sign)
And checked the ring play and all were within spec.
Tomorrow, I am shooting to at least have the head on the block.
Wish me luck!!!
-Brad
-
Update:
(If anyone is listening)
I got a good chunk of work knocked out on the engine rebuild between Thurs, fri, and sun after work.
So far:
-Honed cylinders & Cleaned block surface
-Measured ring gap with compression ring: no cylinders yet to the wear limit
-Installed a full set of piston rings
-Installed a full set of rod bearings
-Pistons & Rods installed, torqued.
-Measured piston protrusion on cyls 1+4: All in the 3 notch range (measured at 4 places on the piston)
-Installed AAZ Pil pan gasket & Windage pan
-Installed new HD oil pump (Myke_W)
-Installed ARP racing head studs
Head prep:
-Cylinder head decked, new exhaust guides and all valve seals replaced.
-Installed new Bosch glow plugs
-Installed Giles rebuilt injectors
-Intake manifold installed
-new studs installed for rubber valve cover gasket conversion
I took 2-3 pictures, but am too tired to post them now..
Late this week
(Thursday / friday, my weekend)
Ill be installing the headgasket (MLS)
and head,
and then hopefully, have a running turbo diesel again!
Question of the day:
How do you go about breaking in your rings?
I was wondering about disconnecting the LDA and turbo outlet hose,
and running normally aspirated for 2 tanks of gas (~800 mi)
to break everything in easily...
Too much? too little?
Thanks,
-Brad
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you're better off keeping the turbo functioning, but limit the boost to around 10 psi.
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For sure...
I can easily follow that break in procedure to the letter. ;D
And keeping it at 10 PSI is easy, just remove my MBC.
So while my intuition was to take it easy on it,
you say I should go ahead and dump some fuel in there, eh?
Also,
I have taken a gamble, and wagered my block.
I have re-used the original rod bolts,
because of the added time and expense
of the machining to install the ARPs I bought.
I torqued all evenly to 22 lb/ft.
I plan to re-check rod bolt torque after the first few miles, and then few hundred miles,
and then again after that.
And I am also going to start building another (better) block soon,
and use those rod bolts there.
Thanks again, Andrew and JTanguay!
Wish me luck!
-Brad
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(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/th_P6210007.jpg) (http://s556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/?action=view¤t=P6210007.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/th_P6210006.jpg) (http://s556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/?action=view¤t=P6210006.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/th_P6210005.jpg) (http://s556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/?action=view¤t=P6210005.jpg)
-Brad
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can't wait to hear it running! i hope those rod bolts hold up :) with stock boost they should... its probably high boost and high rpm's that really do them in.
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HAHA,
Well,
I did not add the ARP head studs and MLS gasket to the mix for stock boost levels....
we shall see what happens..
(the only new parts I really have in the block are rings and rod bearings, after all)
anyone have a decent MF code block laying around, cheap?
-Brad
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(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/th_P6210007.jpg) (http://s556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/jettagli16v/jetta/?action=view¤t=P6210007.jpg)
-Brad
Such a familiar sight! ;) I loved that stage.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/Car%20Stuff/th_DSC04955.jpg) (http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/Car%20Stuff/?action=view¤t=DSC04955.jpg)
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Well,
as much as I loved that stage, Eddie,
I installed the headgasket and torqued the head (per 53 Willys' spec)
tonight.
I coated both sides of the HG with Aviation Permatex,
and torqued to the given spec,
and called it a night...
Now I need to:
install the rest of the accessories (Exhaust mani & turbo, inj lines, etc...)
and she will be ready to run...
Guys:
Since I dont have a block heater,
and have no desire to acquire one,
Ill be running it to warm it up for the retorque. (if possible)
Should I just run it in place to build temp,
or follow Libbybapa's break in procedure and re-torque after that?
Seems like a lot of stress for her to go through before being properly crushed & torqued.
Hopefully I will have all the rest done by the end of the week!!!!
I miss that car like you guys dont even know!
The 1.6 NA does not really fill the void......
Thanks!!!
-Brad
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on the last page it said you torqed the con rod bolts to 22lbs. I was thinking that it was closer to 35lbs, maybe even 32lbs. I just got ARPs and they are different that is why I don't know for sure.
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No, you read correctly.
Based on the Bentley's info
I went to 22ft-lb, which is 30 nm.
Also, one friend always helping me is my buddy Tom,
who started working at a VW dealership in the late 60s,
and he said he has seen far more issues come from overtorquing a rod bolt
than under. (assuming they are all even and consistent torque pulls)
I will also come back and re-check, and see if any have backed off at all.
If so, Ill go back to 22ft-lb + 1/4.
Still hoping to have her running this week,
but work will cramp my style, making me work Fri,
one of my days off....
Damn 4th of July sale, why do we have to celebrate our independence?
I wish we were still British at this point!!
-Brad
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Without a great way to warm the engine at rest,
Ill have to drive it around to warm it up for the re-torque.
I guess Ill go through Libbybapa's break in procedure,
and then let her rest while I re-torque,
assuming it even runs...
Maybe I'll re-assemble it and still have no compression!
Wish me luck, should be turning over tomorrow!
-Brad
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Another good day:
Injector hard lines on,
Glow plug wiring on (Why did I not remember to do that in the opposite order?......)
Exhaust manifold on,
EGT probe re-installed,
Front coolant flange cleaned (wow, that alum. gets pitted badly!)
and new O-Ring installed.
(Short day of work: just 2-3 hrs available today...)
My to-do list keeps getting shorter!
things left to do:
-Injector return lines (all new)
-Side of head coolant flange (need gskt)
-Turbo, oil lines & DP
-Oil pan bolts
-Timing belt
-Turn it over and see if it blows up!!!
If I was not working tomorrow,
she would be running by then....
And do we all agree that I can run around the block for 10-15 mins to seat the rings,
before the great re-torque?
Thanks!
Wish me luck!
-Brad
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Yeah,
I am torquing the head based on 53 Willys'
procedure.
(which involves going to 95 ft-lb,
warming the engine to normal operating temp,
and then re-toruing to 110..)
The way you just described is the ticket:
warm it up sitting there,
retorque,
and then go have some fun seating the rings....
And I guess Ill just leave the boost where it was: 20..
Things are really looking up:
Work decided they did not need me tomorrow morning,
so off to the shop I go to finish this debacle!
-Brad
-
Another good (half) day:
-Torqued oil pan
-Installed Turbo
-removed rear engine mount to properly route turbo drain
-installed turbo oil feed line
The only thing I have left to do is
install T-belt and turn her over!
Hooray!
-Brad
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Another great day!
Last of the kinck-knacks installed,
Timing belt installed,
rolled it over 6x by hand, (the only time I wish I had a gasser is when turning this beast over by hand!)
and all marks are dead nuts. (or within a RCH, but not even close to a tooth)
I will either turn it over in a minute,
or wait for my friend to come up to the shop tomorrow,
to have an older, more experienced pair of ears listening....
Cross your fingers for me!
-Brad
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ITS ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!
Holy crap,
I cant believe I did not make a single mistake major enough to prevent it from operating!
I warmed it up, idling, with little throttle inputs,
and re-torqued to 90 and then 113 ft-lb (to account for the extension I had to use to get my short socket into the head)
And then proceeded to drive it around and have fun!
I tried my best to hold to Libbybapa's procedure,
but it ended up being a 15 minute drive of random 3rd and 4th gear pulls (1/2 throttle or so),
followed by at least 5-10 seconds of no throttle, coasting.
It feels quiet and strong,
It starts by the second revolution of the engine,
and dies immediately when the ignition goes off. (read: great compression now!)
After 5-10 minutes,
My water level light went on, and water temp was running a little higher than usual (EGT = fine)
but my reservoir only had 1" of water in it when I got back.
Hopefully after topping off the reservoir (once it cools down), those issues will be solved.
One slight oddity:
Now, my glow plug light does not go off at its usual interval (5-10 seconds) when starting.
In fact it does not turn off until you crank the engine.
No worries, Ill happily play with that later,
BECAUSE MY JETTA RUNS!!!!!
*** I owe all of you a very special debt of gratitude,
as I could have possibly assembled this engine without you guys,
but not anywhere as well as this one is put together (Namely, ARPs, MLS, and sage wisdom)
Special thanks to: Libbybapa, JTanguay, 53 Willys, and Vince!
Ill get working on some pics or vids...
I really miss the sound of that Turbo!!
Thanks again!
-Brad
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Good job :), I've worked on mine for three weeks before and was very glad to get it going so I can hardly imagine the joy after FINALLY running after being down as long as you've been.
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i don't think you lose any torque with a 1" extension?
glad to hear she's up and running though! make sure that you burp the system to get all the air out or else you risk wrecking all your hard work! i burped mine by running it without the rad cap on until it got up to temperature, then revved it to get the coolant flowing real good. you can usually avoid having to do that by just filling the rad first using the upper cooling hose, and then re-attach it and fill the engine up.
some advice i'll give you, is to try to keep your speeds low, and check the oil level always for the next 1000km or so. its better to be safe than sorry :) in my stupid (younger) years i ran my '86 jetta up to 180km/h to keep up with traffic on the highway... this was a few 100km's after a simple re-ring job. when i got home the oil was at the bottom of the dip stick!!! :o
a little off topic, but seeing as how i have to change my coolant, i might try that new stuff that changes colour. has anyone tried it? i like the idea of using a colour to know exactly when its time to change the coolant for engine longevity. or should we be using the diesel specific coolants?
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i don't think you lose any torque with a 1" extension?
If the extension is parallel to the socket then there is no significant change in torque. If it runs perpendicular to the socket (lengthening the torque wrench) then it will change your torque values.
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Full report:
Everything is flawless...
The thing starts faster then any car I have ever had,
and the battery and starter and GPs are all new,
so that is a pretty good reference point.
It has not missed a beat,
(nor consumed a drop of oil)
in the 70 miles I have put on her thus far.
Im probably going to double-check the head stud
torque this week,
and then leave it all alone.
First Oil change,
Ill go back and check the rod bolts
(damn windage tray!!)
Knock on wood, not a single leak,
not even on the initial warm up,
only at 95 lb-ft.
Aircraft Permatex has to be a great help there.
I really need to do my pump now... (by that I mean Giles has to do my pump now)
I can only imagine what that must feel like!
Again, thanks to all!
-Brad
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Andrew:
from me to you,
thank you so much.
I turned the wrenches,
but you (and the rest of the gang)
were certainly the brains behind the operation.
Thanks again!
-Brad
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glad to hear that oil consumption isn't an issue ;D the honing must have been real good and your break in style as well ;)
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feels great knowing that you did it and it runs well, huh. good job on letting another diesel live for another 25 years. ;D
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Driving the car is easily the best feeling in the world,
and I am so gentle and careful with the engine now.
But I still drive the balls out of it.
I also came down from a Max EGT of 1450
to 1250, due to Gile's injector rebuild (?)
so she is running safer at full tilt now...
Now that this is sorted,
time to get to work on the turbo upgrade!
Im going to do an ATP exhaust manifold, (Already have)
(non-vw) T3, (looking... have you got one?)
and gasser intake, (have)
because I know 20 psi is about as far as you
want to go with the stock intake manifold.
Then things should get interesting...
Also, my 85 Golf is a 1.6 NA,
but has an MF code longblock in it.....
So I make the NA a TD,
and the TD a bahn burner!
-Brad
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try to go VNT ;D
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Ill have to do some looking there...
I already have an ATP hi-flow exhaust manifold
for T3,
(And all the VNTs I have seen are one with the exhaust mani)
but I have heard good things about the VNT with Diesels..
They are supposed to be quick spool and big boost, right?
-Brad
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Ill have to do some looking there...
I already have an ATP hi-flow exhaust manifold
for T3,
(And all the VNTs I have seen are one with the exhaust mani)
but I have heard good things about the VNT with Diesels..
They are supposed to be quick spool and big boost, right?
-Brad
yea very quick spool and big boost :) best of both worlds. getting the linkage to work just right is a bit tricky though.