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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 2383 GTD on August 16, 2005, 10:16:16 am
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OK, I finally had some free after I tuned 4 cars, finished a 99+ front end conversion on my FD, and a few other random things to devote time to tuning the diesel.
I recently installed a new pump I put together, and the results are quite amazing. Even with all the changes the motor and turbo system has, it is nearly unbelievable how much the power there is left in the motor, with more fuel. Anyone that is on the fence about 10, 11, 12 and beyond mm head, should seriously consider it, as it is money well spent. Swapping heads is also very straightforward, and can be done by anyone.
I am still in the process of optimizing the timing, but thus far, the idle is better, power is smooth, and under normal driving, the smoke level has been reduced significantly. This is also considering there was little smoke in normal driving before the new pump. One thing is clear; it is time for a bigger turbo! The turbo spools like mad now, and the external wastegate is super loud, and I've not yet even given the engine full power. Not a problem, however, as I have a turbo that flows more than double the one I have now (a T4).
I have a few photos to take, and if anyone is interested, I can post them.
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What did you use for a cam plate? I'm still trying to find a cummins/1.9 TD cam plate.
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I have a few photos to take, and if anyone is interested, I can post them.
Post 'em up.
As well as your complete current state of tune 8)
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I did the same thing with my 88 jetta TD with similar results. Prior to that the engine was rebuilt, new injectors were installed, and this did nothing other than cure an oil burning problem and hard starting. Then installed the rebuilt pump and what a huge difference. All of a sudden I had this peppy little race car. I was just shocked. Best thing to do to an old diesel I think is replace the pump.
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2383 - thanks for the info. :) Yes I'm interested in pics as well!
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Here are a few photos of the turbo which is going on the car soon. The background is for size reference. The engine compartment needs a bit of cleaning, so, I will take some pics of it later. The head and cam plate are out of a 6 cylinder motor.
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid182/p17f3137b5581f75b4cef5655d12e5cb5/f2c33898.jpg)
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid182/p0b90a3a4b8608abb712e62f80d437ddf/f2c33887.jpg)
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid182/pc46898359dbda6e624f766c5afbdb11b/f2c3388e.jpg)
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid182/pfd3d28009de1439ea56eb5d2eb56d7b6/f2c3387f.jpg)
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid182/p6052509aee0da2d5864b3f03a1694a5a/f2c33875.jpg)
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid182/p9ed7ed1a328d6f8f9a61ccf31b271c44/f2c3386c.jpg)
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That holset is huge, man... Is that off a Powerstroke or cummins pickup diesel or something? Also, I am curious how much boost you are planning to run with it. :twisted:
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I got a few PMs about the photos, so I will try to answer the questions. The red car is an R1 RX-7, with the 13B-REW motor in the background for size reference. The plug in the photo with the red wire, is for N1 (shaft speed, turbine rpm).
The wheel is from Work Wheels, and the size is 18*10 with a 275/35/18 tire on it.
I am not really sure what the turbo is used on, it is brand new, but I think it is used on trucks in Europe. It is a VGT turbo, which means it has a variable geometry turbine. The way Holset achieves the variable a/r is extremely simple, with only 1 major moving part. I will try to find a website with a photo of how it works. If you notice the color of the compressor wheel, it is not the usual "bright" aluminum color. This turbo has the titanium compressor wheel option.
Jake, I will run as much boost as the pump is good for! From initial calculations, it will yield about 75% more fuel. I am also using a larger FMIC, that has the dimensions of 25*13*4 inches respectively.
That holset is huge, man... Is that off a Powerstroke or cummins pickup diesel or something? Also, I am curious how much boost you are planning to run with it. :twisted:
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Update:
I got a few more things sorted out with the pump. I did a few test runs before, and things were going well. After a removing the pump a few times to verify measurements (which were all dead on and highly important) and to make sure everything was operating as it should, I figured it was time to dial in the timing. I think I have it where I want it for now, but I may add a bit more advance, and see how it performs. This new setup demands everything is in place exactly so. With no precedent to work with, changing and setting up the heart of this pump was tedious and time consuming, but it is now very rewarding. Also, as usual with anything difficult, once you've done the process, looking back, it is easy.
I've not revved it up all the way, nor floored it, but given the engine a greater amount of throttle than in the past week, and the power continues to impress me. The throttle response is also improved, which is testament to the much greater overall flow of fuel. It still amazes me with how small the current turbo feels now in terms of lag (not small, T4), and how loud the wastegate has become :twisted:
It might really be time for a blow off valve...
More updates coming soon 8)
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Update 2:
Things are going really well with the injection pump. I had time over the weekend to test the car out more. The timing set optimally now, which took a bit of testing and measuring. Mileage seems to be up a noticeable amount given the miles traveled vs. quantity used, but I've only gone through about 1/2 a tank. Everything is looking great.
Another added bonus of this new pump is the very nice bump in low end torque! This is not simply from the timing set differently from the previous pump, as that pump was optimized as well. Even from just above tick over, the extra torque is there. Of course, near full load was tested as well. The power is unbelievable. Extreme caution must be observed in the rain to maintain yaw, as wheel spin is available any gear or speed tested up to 120 mph. At low to medium speeds, the car feels like it is going to takeoff in dry weather.
I need to get a new EGT gauge, and then I will do some full load, high rpm testing. Then, I will try to figure out a way to fit the Holset on the car, as space is an issue. This web page shows more or less how the VGT mechanism works. The vanes are a two stage variety, as for the first half of the height of the vanes that interacts near the inside of the volute, is about 1/2 the area, compared to the rest of the length of the vane. Also, when the vane plate is fully open, the vanes do not interact at all with the flow of the exhaust gasses (the web page’s macromedia flash is not fully correct). As shown on the website, the vane plate can squeeze down to only a few millimeters (measured).
http://www.holset.co.uk/files/2_5_1_5-variable%20geometry.php
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Well how about that. :) I was wondering how Holset's variable geometry turbos worked. I know Gail Banks likes them. :) That's really a slick idea, as it eliminates the weak point in the VNT design by not having all of the vanes pivot. How does the actuator work? In the simplified animation, it looks a lot like a normal wastegate. That would simplify boost control quite a bit! :)
That engine aught to twist itself right out from under the hood when you're finished. :D Looks great.
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
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Maybe I have ADD, but I'm not exactly sure what type of TD engine you're tuning. Is it a 1.6L TD, 1.9L TD, 2.4L TD, or... ? Anyway, this thread is very interesting!
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He's got a 2383 cc motor I'd bet. :wink: (A 6-cylinder version of the 1.6lTD)
Looking forward to hearing how that huge variable vane turbo works!
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How does one come across a 6 cyl? If it's the same displacement, is it a shorter stroke (more boost!!!) or smaller pistons?
By chance - does anyone know the weights of the 1.6TD? I've been wondering about weight distribution in the rabbit lately.
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The 6-cylinder 2.4 liter diesel has the same bore, and same stroke as the 4 cylinder 1.6 liter and the 5-cylinder 2.0 liter. The motors in this family share many parts, including pistons.
The 6-cylinder IDI turbo-diesels were found in some volvos (the engine was made by volkswagen for volvo.) The 5-cylinder IDI diesels (both naturally aspirated and turbo) were found in the Audi 5000.
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Thanks for the comments guys, I too cannot wait to install the turbo, as I've been looking for another suitable VGT for years. It should sound pretty crazy as well, from the interesting aero design of the turbine wheel, and the map width enhanced/ported shroud compressor housing. The goals of the project are much, much more power potential, better fuel economy from decreased pumping losses and proper load dependant boost pressure.
lord_verminaard, when I was buying the turbo, I selected the geometry control to be pneumatic, and the titanium compressor wheel. They have several options with this being another http://www.holset.co.uk/files/2_5_1_7-actuation%20and%20sensor%20systems.php With my previous experience with VGT turbos, controlling this one should be easy, especially with the shaft rpm feedback.
Jake is right, this is an inline 6 cylinder, 2.4L engine in a Volvo 240 chassis.
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can't wait to see some pics!!!!
Are all 240's a solid rear axle setup? Or are there models with IRS?
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There is are a few videos of the car doing a burnout with the old IP. I will see if I can find where they are hosted.
As far as I am aware, 240s came with a 1030 or 1031 (turbos, etc) dana 30 solid, 4 link rear axle with LSD as an option. Many LSDs will fit this rear, and are available inexpensively. It appears to work fine for drag, the track, or even rally racing.
IRS was available on 760s ( I think), 780s (again I think), and a few other models.
In addition, due to the torque characteristics of an inline 6 (the torque output never falls to zero, unlike a 4 cylinder), the motor is very friendly to the transmission and rear end.
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OK, I found one:
http://www.chesh.co.uk/moviefiles/244burnout.mpg
You might need to download an mpeg2 codec, or a codec pack.
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Just a quick update:
Things are going really well with the pump, and I really wish I did this years ago! Best mileage so far was 51.6 MPG, and the worst compared with the old pump, well I did not measure this yet, but I am sure it is possible, since the potential fuel delivery is so much higher. I've also added a fuel cooler, just in case, which seems to dump a nice amount of heat on longish trips. For the winter I may bypass it, depending on the measured temperature differential.
The Holset; well I am trying to find the best way to fit it, as it is not a trivial matter. The compressor housing is a bit larger than a large frame Garrett H housing which is over 10" in diameter, and the turbine housing is just as large. The mass is about 60 lbs. Hopefully, I can figure out something soon, as I really want to see what the motor will do on the street, and I might schedule a dyno session.
In the interim, I have a 3K K29 ready to roll, that I will try out hopefully this week if I have time. I bought it new, and when I tried it last year I could only develop ~18psit, wastegate closed fully. This is due to the very large turbine a/r and turbine wheel. Both allow for good mass flow and of course whp. I forget the actual major and minor wheel diameters, but I know that both the compressor and turbine wheel majors are over 3". I will measure them before the turbo is installed. It will be interesting now to see how much boost the turbo will develop with the increase in fuel :twisted: and the power.
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I just noticed that the stock D24T came with a 10mm plunger. So did you go to an 11mm or a 12mm? :) You're getting me excited to try out a 10mm plunger in my 1.6lTD.
I'd figure that a larger plunger would need less advance than a smaller plunger. Is that what you found?
Also, do you have a baseline mileage figure with the old pump for comparison?
thanks much for the update!
PS - it sounds like that holset has about the same mounting requirements as a large subwoofer. :lol:
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Yup, the d24 turbo, na, auto all came with the 10mm plunger. I'm pretty sure I'm using a 14mm.
I agree, the larger plunger should give more advance, if you keep the injectors and other variables constant. I changed too many things to be able to give an accurate answer, especially the cam plate, which is nice and aggressive. What I do notice is that for a given change in pump angle, the resulting change in timing is greater than it was with the stock pump. Also, the mileage before was in the mid to low 40s.
I had a bit of time the other day, and I slapped on the K29. I measured the turbine wheel with my new digital caliper (minor = 65.4, major = 75.7, trim = 75), and found it to be larger than a P trim t4 wheel. I did not have a chance to measure the compressor wheel’s major axis, but the compressor minor is about 61mm. If I remember right, the major is about 80mm measured using a meter stick. I have no idea what the a/r is for the turbine housing, but it is nearly as large in diameter as a TO4E compressor housing is (~8"). Also, whilst changing the turbo, I think there might be a way after all to fit a VGT turbo. I have another VGT which is an IHI G8V that is good for ~1000hp, just like the Holset, and has a slightly smaller overall diameter compared to the Holset.
The exhaust sound pressure level is higher as expected with the larger turbine wheel and housing, but it sounds fantastic. At around, and above 4K rpms, there is a veritable melody coming from the exhaust. Also, the power band has shifted about a thousand rpms up, which is fine with me. When the turbo starts to come online, it is insane.
I only really had time for a quick test last night, but I was easily able to hit 30 psi (previous max was 18 before the pump) where I let off, for my boost gauge only goes to 30 psi. I did not even floor it. I got wheelspin at 70mph, and before I knew it I was going 90+ mph, so it is safe to say with that little test the car is much faster. Now, if only I had the VGT on there I would should have better bottom end than the stock turbo, better midrange, and way more top end potential than the K29! More testing to come including a preturbine pressure test.
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Awesome! Great report. What are you doing for head gasket and pistons? You using stock in this area?
Looking forward to hearing what this baby is capable of. :twisted:
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I got wheelspin at 70mph
Now that's what I'm talkin about! :shock: :twisted:
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Awesome! Great report. What are you doing for head gasket and pistons? You using stock in this area?
Looking forward to hearing what this baby is capable of.
Thanks Jake, I've been thoroughly enjoying the larger turbo, and I actually have had a few good races with it (more on that in another section). The head gasket is stainless steel, and the pistons are coated German Mahle's. Around town it is very chill, and with a downshift there is excellent power. On the highway, it is a beast :twisted: and this turbo sounds crazy at 30 psi. Something to note, 30 psi on a t3 != 30 psi with a K29. I really wonder how much mass flow the engine sees now :shock:
I got wheel spin at 70mph
Now that's what I'm talkin about! :shock: :twisted:
Its pretty crazy. Also, there have been a few occasions, where I've had to watch it around bends, not even turns, just slight bends in the road. If the wheels are not pointed totally straight, you are going sideways, and in a hurry. In the rain, I really stay out of boost, as I am not trying to end up chilling in the trees. There is more than enough NA mode power with the new injection pump. I am getting the hang of the power curve, so when the turbo hits, and it hits hard, I can anticipate wheel spin, and back off a bit. The boost will go from a few psi to 30 in a heartbeat.
I should have a chance soon to measure backpressure, but I imagine it is quite low. At cruise (70mph) on a flat road, the boost is just less than 1 psi for reference. With the other turbo it was ~4 psi. This is with a massive, conical k&n style air filter (over 1 foot in length) and a 4" silencerless exhaust.
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sounds sweet..did you have the stainless head gasket made up or is it stock?...mls gasket?..when you did the pump did you swap injector nozzles?..any pics of the csar now or pics of the engine compartment itself?...
Thanks
deo
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2383GTD, is that the HX40 turbo? I see on Holset's website that the HX40 appears to be the smallest one with the VGT and Ti compressor wheel options.
I also see that it's rated at 175-350 hp on a 7-10 liter engine. Lessee now, you have a 2.4L engine that can turn up to (I'm guessing) 6000 RPMs. Multiply the RPM times the size and you have equal air flow to a 7.2 liter engine turning 2000 RPMs...just right! Very cool! 8)
I see broken motors in your future! :lol: :shock: :wink:
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Deo, it is a custom head gasket. The nozzles were swapped a few years ago, with something just a bit larger than the 1930s (i think they are 1930s) that come stock. I can snap a few of the car, but I will take a lot when the car is finished. There should be some photos of the motor in the old chassis, and I will see if I can dig them up.
VWRacer, it is an HX55V, that flows 99lbs/min. The HX40 may be a better size for moderate mods. However, the turbo was not cheap at all, and I did not want to be limited in the future, and need to buy something larger later. The turbine housing can really sqeeze the a/r way, way down, so it should be quite responsive, yet have very serious mid and top end power capabilities. Also, the compressor housing has the anti-surge vents, combined with the Ti compressor (for high temperature loads, and high axial loads) should have a very wide and happy mass flow range. With the new pump, I have plenty of fuel to drive the Holset :twisted:
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Geeze, that just sounds evil! :twisted:
I love it! Keep the reports coming! :lol: