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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: JBR8517 on March 03, 2009, 10:44:30 pm
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Well this being my new favorite site to visit I've finally decided to step up from just spectating and actually post something.
I am preparing to embark on a somewhat major overhaul on my motor due to some issues that have developed in the past few months and just wanted to have some input on anything I may have overlooked and a few concerns I have.
This is a somewhat unique job considering the motor is only 5000 miles new, after a seize a year ago I swapped a fresh 1.6 hydro TD long block but without the turbo (greater strength and cylinder squirters!) . I have had a terrible mystery oil leak (1 qt or so each day I drive it). After replacing the cam seal, crank seal, oil pan gasket, valve cover gasket, and front block off plate I am at a loss, thus I will be replacing all the seals/gaskets on the motor. On top of the leak is a valve knock/tap that has been increasingly getting worse. The final issue is bad smoking, the IP is rather old as are the injectors but no matter how precise I am with timing I cannot seem to get the smoking to cease, and its bad.
I am pulling the head off to inspect valves/lifters/cam and replace any necessary seals/gaskets related. I also plan to add ARP Head Studs (251-4701, someone confirm that please) and an AAZ metal gasket (any modifications needed?).
While the head is off I will be porting and polishing the manifolds and head, does anyone who has done this have any warnings as to clearances with coolant passages and such?
Plugging the oil drain, I've seen this on countless threads but am unsure as to its necessity on a hydro head, clarification?
Re-ringing, should I do this while I am in there, perhaps the cause of the smoking?
Thanks for the advice ahead of time, I'll be posting pics as soon as I pop the hood in the morning.
Edit: Any recommended sites for the AAZ gasket as I've been having trouble locating on US sites.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv320/JBR8517/MyVW001.jpg)
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv320/JBR8517/MyVW008.jpg)
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv320/JBR8517/MyVW004.jpg)
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I'm 95% sure the AAZ gasket goes on the hydro 1.6 with no issues... I've never done one myself though. The oil drain issue only comes about when using hydro parts and non-hydro parts together. The big thing however is the MLS AAZ gasket is MUCH more sensitive to how flat the head is than the fiber stock 1.6 gasket. You need to make sure the block deck and head mating surfaces are ABSOLUTELY flat.
For getting the gaskets you might be better off ordering one from Canada - you can get them here: http://www.autopartsonlinecanada.com/
If I were you and I had the head off I'd be pretty tempted to throw new rings in... Sure beats pulling things all apart later on!
With regards to the tapping / smoking what condition are your injectors in? Both of those are symptoms of a faulty injector that isn't closing properly. You might want to try cracking the fuel lines loose one by one while the engine is running and seeing if the smoking/knocking goes away when one particular injector line is loosened (loosening the line prevents it from building enough pressure to pop - wrap a rag around the injector to catch the fuel!)
With regards to the oil leak, any signs where the oil is coming from?
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I'll add in the extra 5% that vanbcguy is unsure of. It's bolt on. As mentioned though, the block and head need to be straight.
Before you go tearing the motor apart, I think you should do some troubleshooting. Oil pressures, compression and a leak-down test.
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With regards to the tapping / smoking what condition are your injectors in? Both of those are symptoms of a faulty injector that isn't closing properly. You might want to try cracking the fuel lines loose one by one while the engine is running and seeing if the smoking/knocking goes away when one particular injector line is loosened (loosening the line prevents it from building enough pressure to pop - wrap a rag around the injector to catch the fuel!)
Just got back in from checking the injectors, seems as the motor bogs down, the tapping reduces significantly. I would assume that this concludes one of two issues, either more than one injector is bad (probably pretty likely) or its the valvetrain, since the tapping never actually ceased just reduced.
burn_your_money, I'll be heading to the local parts store to see about getting a comp. tester and a cheap oil pressure gauge (is there any other way to check pressure that you are referring to?) I'm at a bit of a loss as the majority of my tools and my beloved Bentley are 500 miles away in storage, so its off to the store.
Just curious as it is unfamiliar to me, would the block/head be likely straight if there is only 5k on both?
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With regards to the tapping / smoking what condition are your injectors in? Both of those are symptoms of a faulty injector that isn't closing properly. You might want to try cracking the fuel lines loose one by one while the engine is running and seeing if the smoking/knocking goes away when one particular injector line is loosened (loosening the line prevents it from building enough pressure to pop - wrap a rag around the injector to catch the fuel!)
Just got back in from checking the injectors,
Did you crack the lines one by one?
Just curious as it is unfamiliar to me, would the block/head be likely straight if there is only 5k on both?
Depends if it was over heated... It can get warped the first 10 miles if there was no coolant ;-)
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With regards to the tapping / smoking what condition are your injectors in? Both of those are symptoms of a faulty injector that isn't closing properly. You might want to try cracking the fuel lines loose one by one while the engine is running and seeing if the smoking/knocking goes away when one particular injector line is loosened (loosening the line prevents it from building enough pressure to pop - wrap a rag around the injector to catch the fuel!)
Just got back in from checking the injectors,
Did you crack the lines one by one?
Yes, right to left one by one, should I have done is otherwise?
I don't recall any overheating incidents, a few close calls while working out some other issues this past summer but if the needle wasn't on center the ignition was going OFF, still haunted by the last motor seize.
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It would be wise to install a timing cover.
Agreed, it and a new tensioner/belt are on the to-do list with the gaskets.
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My money is on injectors for the smoking/tapping... They'll pretty much eat your engine if you run it with them in bad shape for long enough...
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Well I replaced the injectors and retimed the pump, and it ran great until warm at which time I decided to retorque the head and perform the compression test...
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=141011#141011
Please help.
Compression test results were relatively linear but all on the low end.
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Wow, sounds like you are having problems. Your doing the right things working through them. Doing the injectors was a big thing. Having one stick patially open can cause parts to strt melting and wreck the engine. They were rebuilt or bought at a reputable injection shop? What was the pop pressure set at?
What did you get for numbers on the compression tests?
What color is the smoke you are getting? Did replacing the injectors eliminate the smoke, or has it changed?
When you replaced the injectors, did you install new heat shields? They are a one time use item.
The IP bolts are tight and have not worked loose?
How long did it run well before you retorqued? Did you drive it around or just let it idle up to operating temp?
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Thanks for the motivation, I need it. :evil:
The injectors were ordered from a local parts warehouse, listed as rebuilt Bosch and calibrated to 130 bar.
Compression test numbers are posted on the other thread, but were below the minimum wear numbers.
The smoke is now a thick blue/gray but when I had it running before the retorque and last comp test it was eliminated.
Heat shields were replaced with a fresh set.
I am actually thinking the IP bolts may have loosened, I feel like that wouldn't cause the RPM stick but I'm not sure.
I had it running for about 30 minutes, just idling in the garage, no driving time but once warm I did give it a few revs and it behaved well.
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Well the blue smoke is oil smoke, white is fuel. No smoke until you retorqued and then oil smoke and hanging rpm with rough idle :?
Something is causing oil to burn :?
Does your IP have the cold start lever? What position was it in when you did the timing? I think I remember reading something about that on the forum. Someone will chime in on it I am sure.
Did you use new headbolts?
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Ok here's what I have after a lengthy yet enjoyable reading session of my bentley. Blue smoke at cold startup is a tell tale sign of injector trouble, any other situation is usually oil consumption but I think this time I'm lucky.
IP Timing is 0.95 mm right where I left it. I timed it with the cold start in, so no worries there. When cranking by hand I hear no contact between valves and piston, and no seizing or any other issue.
What I think may have something to do with it:
When installing the injectors I had trouble getting my deep socket to seat fully on the injector lower body, thus I gave each a little hammer tap. I noticed that after doing this my line nuts were rather difficult to thread on to the upper body. Spare me the lecture on that one as I know my mistake and its consequences now.
Solution:
Remove the injectors and inspect. Once apart can I assume that when reassembled and torqued to spec there is no disruption to the calibration? If there is any thread damage to the upper injector body at the line end, can I use the upper body from my original injectors with the internals and lower from the new. Also can I yet again assume the calibration to be fine with my hybrid new/old injectors if using all new internals and lower?
Thanks for the help so far, looks like I'm calling it a night for now.
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Solution:
Remove the injectors and inspect. Once apart can I assume that when reassembled and torqued to spec there is no disruption to the calibration?
You can say that with about 95% certainty.
If there is any thread damage to the upper injector body at the line end, can I use the upper body from my original injectors with the internals and lower from the new. Also can I yet again assume the calibration to be fine with my hybrid new/old injectors if using all new internals and lower?
No, definitely don't do this. It's almost a guarantee that they will leak and that the pressures will change. If the top threads are damaged just run a die over them. I think it's M12X1.5 but you should double check that.
If the injectors aren't leaking you probably didn't damage anything and I would just leave them alone (in regards to rebuilding them). More then likely you just bent the return nipples when you were hammering.
White/blue smoke can also be retarded timing. For fun, try advancing it up to 1.05 and see if it clears up any. If it's clacking really bad, or having a hard time reving time it back to 0.95.
For simplicity's sake you should try and keep all your related issues in one thread
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Yes I apologize for the double thread, my 4am logic was to post on here as a follow up to the work and the other thread for the issue itself... :oops:
Well as recommended I cleaned up the threads and reinstalled the injectors. Everything seems OK now, no smoke once she warmed up and after 30 min of drive time it makes much more power than I've ever felt. The knocking has also disappeared.
The compression numbers are still low so in due time I will be doing rings and have everything checked but until then she should get me back to school, at which time my bicycle becomes my DD.
Thanks for the help!
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I'm glad you got it straightened out and listen to Tyler on what he said about the injectors, that's what his line of work is. I switched a set one time same bodies with new nozzles and they made so much noise you couldn't stand it. Another thing to double check when removing injectors and doing compression tests is to double check to make sure one of the original sealing washers isn't still in the hole when you put in the new ones. I use an old one under the compression adapter doing the test and the engine idled kind of rough a whle back afterwards and sure enough I let that one in the hole when I put in the new ones. It probably messed up the spray pattern with 2 of them. Yes try putting the timing up to around at least 1.0 and then try more after you see what this does, it really makes a difference including easier starting as well, I think it actualy helped my mileage also, I'm glad you have the dial indicator, it's just guesswork without it.
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Another thing to double check when removing injectors and doing compression tests is to double check to make sure one of the original sealing washers isn't still in the hole when you put in the new ones. I use an old one under the compression adapter doing the test and the engine idled kind of rough a whle back afterwards and sure enough I let that one in the hole when I put in the new ones. It probably messed up the spray pattern with 2 of them.
Wow I'm surprised you didn't have any leaks, but good catch nonetheless. I fortunately am confident as I had 4 old heat shields on the work bench when I had completed the work.
Yes try putting the timing up to around at least 1.0 and then try more after you see what this does, it really makes a difference including easier starting as well, I think it actualy helped my mileage also, I'm glad you have the dial indicator, it's just guesswork without it.
I love that tool, it gets more use then I ever thought it would when I originally bought it, I can't imagine timing without it.
The work seemed to hold up last night and is now 500 miles older than it was yesterday. My fuel mileage and power was significantly improved for about half the drive when I began to notice a difference as my ability to stay with traffic diminished so did my fuel gauge. Pulled over and popped the hood, revealing diesel in an interesting spray pattern throughout the engine bay, one of the lines had sprung a leak at the collector (clip holding the lines in a group). After many failed attempts over the next 200 miles I arrived, washed the engine bay and parked the car. :cry: Happily I commuted to school today on my bicycle, which rarely fails me :wink:
Guess its just my luck, needless to say new lines are on order and hopefully there won't be any unforseen problems with such a simple job.
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Unfortunately a bit too late for you, but whenever you move the pump, always loosen all 8 nuts at the ends of the lines, and also the clamps at the same time. This prevents the lines from being stressed.
Glad to hear you got it sorted out. So you just cleaned the threads and then reinstalled the same injectors and voila, problem solved?
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Unfortunately a bit too late for you, but whenever you move the pump, always loosen all 8 nuts at the ends of the lines, and also the clamps at the same time. This prevents the lines from being stressed.
Sheesh I feel pretty foolish for not having thought of that, I often wondered why it was so difficult to move the pump.
Glad to hear you got it sorted out. So you just cleaned the threads and then reinstalled the same injectors and voila, problem solved?
...and soaked them in lacquer thinner and blew them out really well. Installed a new set of heat shields. I suspected a clogged injector, perhaps with some fragments of the gunked threads, to be one of the problems.
I do still have a hunch, from the compression test mostly, that I have bad rings, perhaps leading to some mild oil consumption which could be acting as an alternate fuel and may have been built up on the cylinders from just being idled during the prior warm up ultimately causing the sticking RPMs. Hey all I said is its a hunch. :idea: