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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: A Guy on August 11, 2005, 12:31:12 pm
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Hello group. I'm a newbie to this group. I was directed here from another VW group. As this one is diesel specific, I hope I can solve my delema.
I have a 91 Golf with a 1.6L. It just turned over 200 000Km. It runs well and smoothly with only a small puff on start up.
My problem occurs on the highway and so far only when in fifth gear. Suddenly without much if any warning the car will take off and at the same time emit a massive cloud of smelly, thick smoke. All I can do is take my foot off the gas and let it burn out. The engine usually races for a second maybe two and then all returns to normal with the exception of the choking motorcyclist behind me :oops: . I want to know why this happens and what I can do to fix it from happening. Today it happened again on my way into work but this time it lasted a second longer than normal. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.
thank you in advance.
Greg
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It's happening from oil getting into the combustion chambers and being burnt as fuel instead of the diesel. If not addressed and it runs away without you catching it, the motor can over-revv which can cause expensive engine damage.
Easiest fix which might work (you could try) is improving the crankcase breather system. This thread has some ideas along those lines:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1490
If the problem persists even if you've removed all blowby oil vapors from being introduced into the air intake (easy enough to try), the piston rings probably aren't scraping enough oil off of the cylinder walls and it's time for a piston re-ring, if not an engine rebuild. Other possibilities of oil getting into the combustion chambers are bad intake valve seals, or bad turbocharger compressor seal (if you've got one of those.)
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Finally! now I feel like I'm getting somewhere. thank you. I noticed similarities from the pics the kid took of his dads mods but I'm lacking the turbo so theres way more room and way fewer pipes. I'll have a look tonight and see what I can figure out. Thanks again for the info. :D
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The kid? I think he's talking about you, Jake! :mrgreen:
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No disrespect intended :oops:
I had a closer look last night and noticed I don't have the same hoses due to the fact I'm not running a turbo. I have one hose that comes out of the top of the valve cover then runs down under the air box where it splits at a 'T' horizontally and drops down into the intake at two points side by side about 6" apart. This is the only breather hose I have(from what I've noticed so far). WHat can I do with this set up to eliminate the engine runaway? I have already removed the hose and cleaned it out. I have not removed the valve cover to see if the hole is blocked at the entrance point. I continued to get runaway after I cleaned the hose.
Thanks for the replies thus far.
Greg
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Hey now, just because I help my dad with his car doesn't make me a kid! :lol:
Cleaning the hose won't do much. If you really want to insure you aren't getting oil into the intake, remove that crankcase vent hose and block off the entrance points on your intake manifold. You might want to route the hose carrying the crankcase vapors down low underneath the car as it will be emitting oily (and stinky) vapors, opposed to letting it spew oil vapors high in your engine compartment. Then you can drive it on the freeway like that and see if it fixes your runaway problem. If that helps, you could buy and rig up a better crankcase vent filter.
You can also add a crankcase vent hose to the side of the block, as shown in previous thread.
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"If you really want to insure you aren't getting oil into the intake, remove that crankcase vent hose and block off the entrance points on your intake manifold"
When you say "remove the hose at the crank" are you referring to the valve cover output or am I not looking in the right area :?:
Thanks
Greg[/quote]
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He's talking about the valve cover hose that you described going to the intake.
Block the intake holes and run that hose somewhere else. Take it for a drive and see if it still takes off on it's own.
You probably still have the cam splash shield on yours right?
Pull the valve cover cap and see if there is a piece of black plastic just under the valve cover.
There are small restrictors inside those crankcase vent holes, in the intake. I've never heard of anyone having consistant runaway problems with a 1.6D. I thought these restrictors would limit the amount of crankcase gasses allowed into the intake.
Normally the pressure inside the block becomes great enough to push oil out the dipstick, due to the restriction in the intake ports. I've drilled these restrictions out and got the oil to stop coming out the dipstick and still didn't get it to runaway.
Anyway, pull that hose, plug the intake crackcase vent holes and let us know what happens. Remember to run the vent down low to limit the fumes coming out your hood when you come to a stop.
How's your oil level? When the 1.5 was running away, I lost alot of oil as it was being used for fuel.
How's your fuel filter? A bad fuel filter can let air into the pump and weird things can happen.
When my car ran away, taking my foot off the gas didn't stop it, shutting the key off didn't help. I had to step hard on the brakes and bring the car to a complete stop. Then every time I started it, it would run away again ... till the oil in the intake was burned away. Then I could start it and drive on ... till I hit 60mph and it would happen again. I got quite a parade going all the way home from New Mexico and if I got going 60, it would take off and leave them all in a huge cloud of smoke. People pulling over, thinking I blew the engine but I would just wave them on, ha.
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Thanks for the clairafication. I don't know if the splash sheild is in place. I'll look. I get oil coming from the dip stick too. I thought it was because of the runaway causing it to over rev thus more pressure...
I haven't checked the fuel filter. I don't think I can inspect it. I'll have a look and possiblty just change it but the car runs very well aside from the runaway. At what frequency should i change the fuel filter for future reference.
I completely hear you about the parade of cars and the stares. I've gotten some very displeased looks as the finally catch up and pass me. The truckers laugh as they seem to know what's going on. The motorcyclists hate it! :oops:
I'll have some time on sunday to do some work and I'll update. Thank you for all the help.
Greg
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I put a vaccum gauge on the fuel line and when the pump starts pulling near 3" hg., I change the filter.
No point changing a $10 (or more) filter till it needs it.
When there is enough pressure to push oil out the dipstick, it can also push seals out. I saw the I-shaft seal pushed out on the engine previously mentioned and wondered why ... till I got the engine in and started.
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I put a vaccum gauge on the fuel line and when the pump starts pulling near 3" hg., I change the filter.
No point changing a $10 (or more) filter till it needs it.
When there is enough pressure to push oil out the dipstick, it can also push seals out. I saw the I-shaft seal pushed out on the engine previously mentioned and wondered why ... till I got the engine in and started.
he's lucky he's not running a turbo. Blowby on turboed engines with worn out rings can be quite impressive.
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You have to be brave to try this solution...
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/vwforum/viewtopic.php?t=325&sid=d6e7fa3912ee7408c391e888bba82e7f
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Ok so I ran the bypass and I have logged just shy of 300 Km at speeeds between 110Km/h 125km/h. No runaway. This is good I think because it only happened around these speeds. If I go this week (1500kms)with no runaway I will install the can with the steel wool that was posted previously.
Also, I looked in the valve cover and there is a splash shield and I could see a small hole in line with the vent. Is this what was drilled out? Did it help the oil from coming through the dipstick?
Thanks all! Please keep you fingures crossed for me.
Out!
Greg
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I could see a small hole in line with the vent. Is this what was drilled out?
I'm not sure where you saw a small hole.
The restrictors I'm referring to are in the intake, where the crankcase vent line connects to the intake manifold. Comes from the valve cover, splits into 2 lines and enters the intake. Pull the hoses and look down the intake ports. You'll see that the gasses escaping the block are limited by restritions in these ports.
Drilling out these restrictors in an '85 Jetta diesel engine I was messing with stopped the oil from coming out the dipstick. Take note that this engine did not have a runaway problem, like yours might. The engine I worked on lasted 2 more years before compression got too low to start. Yours might take off like a bat out of hell if you drill the restrictors out. I always wondered if these holes were used to limit crankcase gasses from entering the intake, preventing runaway. This might explain why your runaways were controlled. After drilling out the restrictors, I took the car for an 80mph drive to see if it would runaway ... it never did till the day it died (required a pull start).
Since yours might have been actually running away, yours might take off uncontrolled if the resctrictions are drilled out. If it does, letting off the accelerator won't stop it.[/quote]
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Gotcha. I had looked into the exhaust on top of the valve cover. There is a plate directly below and there is a pencil sized hole in this plate. I'll look in the holes in the intake on my next day off (when I'll do the fix) presuming my runaway problem stays solved.
The car is running very well. I'm over 400k (keeping with traffic) with no runaway.
I'll keep an eye on the oil coming from the dipstick in the meantime.
Have a great day folks.
Greg
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I'm over 1000K with no runaway :D
I have noticed though , when I pull up the hose that I have running from the valve cover vent to have a peek that there's a good coating of oil. :?
Why is the oil there. THere should be mostly if not completely vapours escaping that hose. I get some good drips on the ground every time I park. I figure that the fix stated above with the ABS plastic housing and steel wool will keep the problem solved but it seems to be a "bandaid" fix compared to actually "fixxing" the problem. Is this possible without too much headache or cut knuckles?
Out!
Greg
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Mate, the only way to fix it is to rebuild the motor! New rings or rebore, depending on how bad it is. Venting will only improve breathing and stop so much of the oil being drawn into the air intake. My Golf's modified breathing has lasted me for months now and is still OK....But I know I'll have to rebuild eventually. (I have the parts waiting!)
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Ya, That's what I figured. Will I have to overbore or will I be able to simply hone the cylendars? Hopefully she'll hold out 'till spring when I do my SVO conversion. CAN"T WAIT :!: 8)
Thanks for the info guys.
I wish I could get my hands on one of those Nissan Patrols. I have a Pathy but it's a pig on fuel and has the aerodynamics of a brick. Needless to say since I got my hands on this little VW it seeing practically no road time. I know she's sad :lol:
Out!
Greg
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I agree totally with "toomanycars", this sounds like a clear case of bad rings. I had a similar problem on my 1.6D, oil would pour out of the dipstick tube, and if I removed the oil filler cap while the engine was running it would nearly blow it out of my hand, from all of the cylinder pressure leaking past the rings into the crankcase (oilpan) and causing excessive pressure in the crankcase ventilation system.
I hope this helps alittle A-GUY. I think by removing your crankcase ventilation hose, from your intake manifold, you have stopped the engine from running on your blowby(excessive oil vapours), but as you are seeing, it's leaving oil spewed wherever you have allowed it to vent to. It's going to come out until you fix the real problem, which is likely the rings.
I have seen however, a cylinderhead do this, where the combustion pressure leaked past the ring of the headgasket into the oil gallery, because a small piece of the cylinderhead was chipped or blown out, not allowing the headgasket to seal properly.
Good luck A_GUY, hope this helps a little bit.
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Remember to watch your oil level.
The oil that used to get burnt is still leaving the engine.
On my runaways it went through alot of oil.
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So I'm over 2000 K's w/no run away. The probolem is I seem to be going though more oil. I'm thinking rings etc. but on two different occassions I went though my oevrflow of coolant. Now I was driving a little faster than normal130+. I saw someone mention the head gasket could be causing the prob with the oil and this would make the loss of coolant make some scence. :? Coments Please.
I'm also leaning towards do the fifth gear change as I am interested in prologing the life of this engine and I do 70% of my driving at highway speed. The car seems best at 110km/h. This is hard to do as I often need to sit around 120 and sometimes a little higher :D. How much of an RPM drop will I get with this conversion. (I think it's larger by 7/100ths) And finally, is it relly a 2-3 hour job? I asked a lot here. Sorry if i should have started another topic. Let me know. Newbie and all :) Thanks in advance group
Out!
Greg
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Well I had time to do the can with steel wool fix. :D Pretty straight forward. That is untill I was on the highway this morning when the golf ran away again :evil: . I was able to stop it and realised the minute it happened that I had the in at the top and the out at the bottom and realised the errors of my ways :twisted: . Swithched the hoses up on the side of the road and I swear it runs better :? . I'm sure it's just me but I'll get a better idea on the way home.
Out!
Greg
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Well I hate to burst you bubble but there is NO WAY your car is going to start in December...you should it fix now before the winter while there is still a chance. Used motors are plentiful in this area under $500. You could swap your trans while your at it too. I had a problem with oil leaking out not runaway (too much pressure for the silly little hose) I would not start below -15C without a block heater. I rerouted the hose but starting was an issue. Nothing more frustrating then a car that won't start without power! Thankfully hills are plentiful were I worked last winter. I scrapped the car as soon as I could find a replacement. Your not doing the enviroment any favour leaking out all that oil either.
Greg
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Thanks House of Diesel.
Is there a way of determining if I just need new rings and not reboring? The rings I'm not worried about doing but I don't have the experience to rebore. I know there are attachments for drills that will do the job but I also know if it's not the right pattern I'll be S.O.L.
I'm very leary of used engines mostly from experience. I would prefer a minor rebuild and then get a few hundred k out of this little misser. Plus I will be converting to VO. I thought after Christmas when business slows down would be the best time but now with these frick'n prices I might do before our Christams season.
What Trans would you suggest concidering I have a N/A 1.6. I have a jetta I can pull parts off of and it has a good GTI trans in it but I figured the gearing would be too high for this little engine to move. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I would ideally preffer a lower rpm so I can travel faster on the highway without putting too much strain on the engine.
BTW even with this "fix" I still get the occasional case runaway - each day - at leat each way to and from work - still only above 120km/h - only on the highway.
Can someone give me a parts list to call for ie. rings, head gasket, pan gasket etc.
Out!
Greg
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Thanks House of Diesel.
Is there a way of determining if I just need new rings and not reboring? The rings I'm not worried about doing but I don't have the experience to rebore. I know there are attachments for drills that will do the job but I also know if it's not the right pattern I'll be S.O.L.
I'm very leary of used engines mostly from experience. I would prefer a minor rebuild and then get a few hundred k out of this little misser. Plus I will be converting to VO. I thought after Christmas when business slows down would be the best time but now with these frick'n prices I might do before our Christams season.
What Trans would you suggest concidering I have a N/A 1.6. I have a jetta I can pull parts off of and it has a good GTI trans in it but I figured the gearing would be too high for this little engine to move. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I would ideally preffer a lower rpm so I can travel faster on the highway without putting too much strain on the engine.
BTW even with this "fix" I still get the occasional case runaway - each day - at leat each way to and from work - still only above 120km/h - only on the highway.
Can someone give me a parts list to call for ie. rings, head gasket, pan gasket etc.
Out!
Greg
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Thanks House of Diesel.
Is there a way of determining if I just need new rings and not reboring? The rings I'm not worried about doing but I don't have the experience to rebore. I know there are attachments for drills that will do the job but I also know if it's not the right pattern I'll be S.O.L.
The "by the book" way to determine if an overbore is needed is to remove the head and do some measuring of the cylinder wall taper, piston wear, and piston-cylinder bore clearance, and also inspecting the cylinder walls at this time for any critical or unusual wear. If the bores are excessively worn, a re-bore with new oversized pistons is in order. However, a lot of folks buy a little extra time for their motors with a quickie re-ring job, which can be accomplished at home leaving the block installed in the chassis.
Boring cannot be done by a DIY mechanic at home; it's generally an operation that gets farmed out to a machinist with the specialized boring equipment.
If you are just replacing the rings, you need to "deglaze" the cylinder walls to get the new rings to seat in and to seal. This can be done with the block still installed in the chassis and a hand drill deglazing attachment.
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What kind of "down time" am I looking at. I have all tools with the exception if a set of ring expanders.
Thanks,
Greg
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Most of the time I see rings that are sloppy in the piston grooves.
Which means time for new pistons ... bigger pistons and a rebore.
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I talked to my parts supplier and he said that it was a complete waste of time just doing the rings. He said crank bearing rings gaskets crank pulley(it's due) etc. What gives? Is he trying to soak me or is this info true? I need some solid advice as I am currently stumped.
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To re-ring your motor, you're going to have to remove the rods from the crank. It is not much extra cost to replace your crankshaft bearings at that point with new ones, although if the engine's ever been rebuilt you will need to order the proper thickness bearings (the thickness is printed on the backs of the bearings). How is your oil pressure? If it is not up to par, you might as well inspect your thrust bearing (get feeler gauge set for this) while you've got the pan and oil pump removed. You can also check your oil pump gear backlash and end play if it does. Specs are given in Bentley. (You do have a bentley manual by now don't you? Don't even consider doing this job without one!) Replace a worn out oil pump with a new one. Also if you suspect excessive main bearing clearances, you can check those with plastigage once you've got the oil pan off. You'll definitely need to replace the head bolts, head gasket (with proper thickness), valve cover gasket (unless you already upgraded to reusable rubber version), and oil pan gasket (unless already upgraded to reusable rubber version.)
You'll want to change the manifold to head gaskets for any manifolds (intake or exhaust) you end up removing from the head. Removing at least the unweildy NA diesel intake manifold will make the head easier to lift off and onto the block. It is also not much additional work to replace the timing belt and tensioner if they could use it, when you have the head off as well. As for other seals and gaskets to replace... you got oil leaks that need fixing? If not, you're probably OK leaving your cam seals, main seals, etc undisturbed. You'll also need to set timing on your camshaft and your diesel injection pump after you put the head back on the block.
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What kind of dollars am i looking at just for parts if I do it myself vs if I pay to have it done. I have a line on a rebuilt 1.6 but the price is stiff.
Those who know please let me know how many empties I'll need to return to pull this rebuild off. :)
No, I haven't purchased a Bently Manual yet. I know-I know! :oops: I normally use Haynes but haven't been able to find one for the golf diesel. :? any suggestions for a retailer in Canada even better in ottawa.
Peace! and thanks for the replies.
out!
Greg
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I'd say for your "mexican rebuild", you're looking at around $100-$200 US in parts. Plus extra for tools, depending on what you need. There are a bunch of places on-line you can price out parts at yourself. For example, www.worldimpex.com. There are many other parts sources that can quote you on-line (do some searching around.) Or you might check with altrom, as they supply many engine internal parts (although be warned they generally don't sell directly to retail): http://www.altrom.com/
Also check for yourself, but mechanics generally charge labor and mark up on parts as well. I'd guess maybe 8 hrs work, so at $60/hr, that's a few hundred dollars in labor. The total cost could push $1000 US. A mechanic also likely wouldn't warranty the work since it's not being done "by the book" (which would be to pull the whole engine, ship it off to an engine rebuilder to have it "properly" rebuilt and reinstalled, all to the tune of more around $2000+ US.) But then you'd have a rebuilt head, new fresh pistons and block and crank, the longblock should be entirely in "new" specs, and you should have peace of mind it will be good for hundreds of thousands of miles.
You could also pull the engine, remove all the accessories, have the longblock rebuilt by a specialist engine rebuilder, and then reinstall it yourself along with all the accessories. When I had my 1.6lTD longblock rebuilt a few years ago, I recall the price for the rebuild being about $1000-$1200 US area.
Edit: using the search (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/search.php) feature of our board (don't forget to try the search feature before asking questions here), I found a thread on canadian parts suppliers:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1382
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Thank you. Very good info. I've done a search on what to look for when purchasing a motor but all info seems to petain to an engine that's in a vehicle. I have the opportunity to p/u a complete rebuilt unit but it is out of the car. how do I check?
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Can anyone give me some tips for checking an engine that is out of a car? I have an opportunity to p/u a rebuilt 1.6 but I don't want a tonne of hassels when I could just rebuild mine( for more money of course) I know..I know what's peace of mind worth?...........
Thanks for the tips.
Greg
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A leak down test works on an engine that's out of the vehicle. Do a search on here for more info on leakdown testing.
Put a wrench on the crankbolt and turn it clockwise. If it turns hard and springs back, compression is around 400 psi. or greater.
It shouldn't turn over easy, if it springs back between peaks, you have real good compression.
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Thank you for that info!
Some things I've noticed as of this week. I have not had to put any oil in the car this week. :? I normally keep it topped up but at the beg. of this week I said screw it and left it at half. I'm still at half and I've put on over 1000Km's at 120km/h. However, I have noticed oil sitting on top of the intake so my guess is valve cover gasket is now the weekest point. Oh, also, no runaway in over 2000Km . I am loosing antifreze though. It seems to be the driving at 120Km/h. I'll try to wake up 15 min earlier and do my trips at 110km/h :twisted: . I'll let you know what I find with the engine.
Out!
Greg
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I have a 200,000 mile hard use 1.5 Rabbit diesel which DID do the run away thingy. Even with the factory fix it still would take off on me.
We installed the plastic cover over the cam from a 1.8 gas, put the valve cover back on, and guess what.....
flat out at 2 hours it still was not ready to take off :wink: