VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: kaneb on February 21, 2009, 07:55:45 pm
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Im about to attempt this right now, anyone else done this before? I found a mk2 diesel cluster at pick n pull. I need to use the tach as my diesel never came with one, it came with the clock. I would like to swap the entire cluster and just re-wire it. Trying to figure out where the mk2 match up with the mk1. I have the wiring diagram for the mk2 cluster. I dont have a bentley to look up the mk1 diagram. Just curious if anyone would know possibly?
I really dont want to spend 70$ for a bently for one diagram. As my mk2 bently covers the diesel pretty well already.
Kane
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PM me with an email address and I'll send you a pdf I have of an 83 Rabbit schematic.
It's the old style of documentation (wires every which way rather than the current Bentley method of current tracks) but might be enough for what you need.
My humble suggestion: post your final diagram back here... I have a feeling this could be a really useful part of the FAQ, particularly given how MK1 clusters are getting rare. :wink:
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pm'd--Thank you
Very good idea ill for sure do a write up, i thought it was common thing happening, turns out i was wrong!
Kane
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I will be going the MKII route as well, so I will be interested to see how this turns out. I'm also curious as to how well it fits in the MKI dash..
Good luck!
Also, check on the vortex, there may be a write-up on there...
try this search engine, it's much better than that retarded one that's on the site.
http://vwvortexsearch.webs.com/
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Since my rabbit never came with a tach is the wiring still in the harness? Or do i have to wire it in off the w terminal off the alt.? According to the schemtic the red&black wire is for the tach. But there is nothing connected at the w terminal on the alt. do factory tachs not read off the alts? Just if you install an after market tach in?
I have part of the cluster wired in. Just trying to figure out a couple more bits like the tach, clock and oil pressure light.
Kane
P.s i will post some pictures and such on how i did it. I also pushed back the odometer from 389,000 to the 164,000 my rabbit has on it.
Any help or ideas appreciated!
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OK so I guess all i need to plug the tach into is the w on the alt? Also, is the W powered or should i run a fuse or not really since its more of just signal power?
I believe the cluster is actually out of a 1990 jetta. I didnt look at the date on the car at pick n pull. But for the tach on a 90 jetta the signal wire is red. So i guess ill run that to my W terminal and hopefully i have a tach. The 91-91 had the tach i believe with 2 red and white wires and 1 green.
I have been looking up different wiring diagrams all day piecing this thing together. But getting closer.
Kane
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I will be doing the same in 3-4 caddies. Or I'll use a cabby cluster with a ford crank position sensor as a feed for the gas tach.
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Tach is working. Alittle more work and it all should be good.
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how was the fit? Thats the only thing I'm concerned about at this point.
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They look pretty much the same so fitment im not to worried about. I don't actually have it completely finished since we hit a little cold snap and my garage isn't heated. Ill post it all up when im done, keep your eyes peeled.
Kane
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I was just wondering.. would a gas cluster with a tach work? or would it need mod? Also will anything happen if i plug an aftermarket tach in to the w terminal? sorry for the hijack :)
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hey, if you finally get a mk2 cluster to fit in a mk1 dash, let me know. im gonna swap over the 140mph cluster out of my jetta soon.
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I was just wondering.. would a gas cluster with a tach work? or would it need mod? Also will anything happen if i plug an aftermarket tach in to the w terminal? sorry for the hijack :)
Yes and no...
I have a gas cluster that isnt hooked up in my car at the moment, but I didn't feel like trying to get it to work when I could do something like this for under $100. Plus the my diesel tach has the correct rpms and only goes to 5000 where as the gasser tach goes to 7000.
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There's a couple of ways to get the gasser tach to work...
- build yourself a sensor reading the IP pulley - I think Vince has some instructions out there somewhere
- buy a Dakota Digital tach converter - it reads the 'W' terminal on the alternator and outputs a gasser-like tach signal
Either option will work for any 4-cylinder gasser tach be it factory or aftermarket.
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I was just wondering.. would a gas cluster with a tach work? or would it need mod? Also will anything happen if i plug an aftermarket tach in to the w terminal? sorry for the hijack :)
A gas tach will work with modification from what i read. Aftermarket diesel tachs should work VDO makes one and from what i remember when i was looking it up you have your signal from your w terminal and then you just run power to it.
Kane.
P.s. im still working on this still waiting for some nice weather.
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Quick question.
Have a couple issues. I have rough schemtics for putting this thing in so im doing a bit of guessing and trial and error ha. So the tach works good, fuel gauge and coolant gauge, glow plug light is good, turn signal alt/battery light is good.
My issues right now are. The coolant light blinks, the oil pressure light still have to get it figured out. The dash lights dont come on with the head lights they shut off, high beam blue dash light on with low beams, and off with high. Also nothing at the clock. I'm wondering if it's ground issues i'm having, wrong wires spliced in. Maybe since its mk1 sensors and mk2 cluster reads it differently? Anyways ill get it figured.
Im hoping i can get everything in this cluster to work as it originally did in a mk2.
Kane
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Can you put up any pictures please of the wiring maybe we could troubleshoot this together because I will be taking on this task tomorrow.
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its warmed up hope to get back at this today.
Nate--ill try...maybe write up my schmetics for you. as long as you robbed a cluster out of something the same year as i did.
You know what year your cluster came out of?
Kane
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Hi Folks:
I did this swap a year ago (85 JettaTD cluster in 81 RabbitD) and it succeeded but my issues where related to the Bentley Manual mis-representing the wire positions in the mkII harness(es). I traced the pins around the back of the cluster and got everything straightened out ok. You may have to do the same with some of those idiot light issues. They are probably wired up incorrectly. I found the the coolant level sensor in my TD cluster didn't read the sender in my engine.
I was amazed at how well the cluster "locks" into the rabbit dash! Those side pins brace against the dash's brackets and there are no screws required in my case. The little tab on the top edge of the cluster presses up the on the dashtop modling and pressfits the cluster in to it's seating. I had to use force to get it in there but it seats very well. I found that the left-hand cluster harness interfered with the steering column support but there were only three of four conductors going to it anyway and when the harness as "chopped" down it fit well enough. Also the mkII style speedometer cable's "socket" (to fit the mkII speedo) interfered with the Rabbit' frame behind the dash because the cutout for the speedo cable didn't line up quite right or didn't give clearance. I cut a notch out of this framing with a sawzall and that was that.
Also, the mkII clusters are designed for mkII final drive ratios (3.66 or 3.94) with a proper toothed speedo pinion. If you are using a 3.89 R&P box, you're mkII cluster shouldn't read right. Conversely, if you have a newer mkII 5sp box in your RabbitD, your stock cluster shouldn't read right.
My alternator didn't have a W terminal (it is a reman Bosch, Motorola-style alternator). I simply installed one into the alternator and a wire to carry it back to the clkuster. You can see the six diodes through a slatted cooing cutout in the back of the alternator so I poked a soldering iron and a wire in there to connect a pigtail to one of the nodes between a set of opposing diodes. This node is one of the the stator coils. This is what a W terminal is normally connected to inside. With that, the tach works and the dynamic oil pressure warning system works because I have an AAZ engine with two oil pressure switches.
Also, I hooked the hand brake switch to the shift-up light. The brake warning light is in the cluster on an '81 so is not provided elsewhere. With no shift-up relay in my car it was a no-brainer to splice that in.
So that is some of my experience. I wrote a nice schematic for this swap, but that was how I wired it the first time before I discovered the Bently current flow diagrams were giving me back pin positions. I never made an updated schematic after that, I think.
I recommend this swap if you have the time screw with all these things. The mkII look is much more refined and the tach rocks even if it isn't totally accurate due to belt variations. It's pretty close anyway.
-Brendan
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There's a couple of ways to get the gasser tach to work...
- build yourself a sensor reading the IP pulley - I think Vince has some instructions out there somewhere
- buy a Dakota Digital tach converter - it reads the 'W' terminal on the alternator and outputs a gasser-like tach signal
There is a third way (http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3741), convert the gasser tach to W terminal input. Works a charm
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There's also another way...
Full CE2 Swap! :twisted:
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Thanks guys. Still in the midst of playing around and have some other things on the go. I was hoping to just buy a new speedo cable...or will that not work from what i read?
blacknoise- if you don't mind would be nice if you could throw up a schemtic of hows is or a pic just so i can see how route. Even though your cluster is different being an 85.
Everything is pretty much operational except i have to figure out why the dash instrument lights work fine when the car is off and i turn on the head lights, but as soon as i turn on the key the instrument lights go out. After that i have a couple more things to play with and i shall be on my way. Just finishing up some interior pieces for the car and it will be going all back together and back on the road.
Kane
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There's also another way...
Full CE2 Swap! :twisted:
I read about that somewhere on vortex. Thinking maybe i should have one that and based my whole car off a mk2...re-wire everything. Maybe eventually.
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how much harder is it swapping in a CE2 cluster? i want to take the cluster out of my 92 jetta and put it in my rabbit. im pretty sure the mounting will be easy if he said it kinda just kinda presses in. modifying the cable holes behind it is a no brainer also.. but what about wiring up everything? it only has one plug from what i understand (ce1=2 plugs, ce2=1 plug). i dont have access to a bently. but i did find a decent diagram for my jetta online and printed it out. would wiring diagram from a chilton be worth looking at? or is it not gonna have a detailed instrument cluster portion?
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There's also another way...
Full CE2 Swap! :twisted:
I read about that somewhere on vortex. Thinking maybe i should have one that and based my whole car off a mk2...re-wire everything. Maybe eventually.
That's the route I'm going. I will try and take all the pictures I can of the swap, and do a write-up on it.
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yea, no thanks.. i like my car, but not that much. the wiring in it right now works too good to justify taking it all out. its the first VW ive owned without wiring issues. and besides its not gonna be anywhere near plug and play. unless you did a full mk2 dash swap. is that possible?
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Oh it's totally possible. Just a bit of work involved. If you have the wiring diagrams and the tools to alter the dash mounting go for it. I've seen mk4 full on interiors in mk1's alot of alterations though.
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yea, no thanks.. i like my car, but not that much. the wiring in it right now works too good to justify taking it all out. its the first VW ive owned without wiring issues. and besides its not gonna be anywhere near plug and play. unless you did a full mk2 dash swap. is that possible?
I think you're making it sound harder than it really is. A MKII Dash swap is not needed.
Have a look through this:
http://www.selenengineering.com/xCE2Conversion.aspx
this swap used mk3 wiring, but if you were to use mkII wiring, it should be much simpler.
A majority of the wires are the same color, so splicing in the mkI connecters, switches, lights, etc. should be pretty straightforward. Just approach everything patiently, and have mkI and mkII bentlys handy.
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KaneB- what model/year car do you have and which mkII cluster are you using? I have the mkI Diesel Bentley in front of my and I can scan you the current flow diagrams you need. I also have an mkII Bentley for the cluster pinouts. I can get those out today. I will consult my schematic I still have for my swap and send them, but it is outdated due to some incorrect pin designations I was following (against my instincts of wire color)
-Brendan
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KaneB- what model/year car do you have and which mkII cluster are you using? I have the mkI Diesel Bentley in front of my and I can scan you the current flow diagrams you need. I also have an mkII Bentley for the cluster pinouts. I can get those out today. I will consult my schematic I still have for my swap and send them, but it is outdated due to some incorrect pin designations I was following (against my instincts of wire color)
-Brendan
I got a rough schemtic it was hard for me to see though through vince(thanks vince) But had a hard time making some of it out. So yeah it might put me ahead of where i am. 83 Rabbit is a 1.6 NA which i made a TD. the mk2 cluster is out of a 1990. I couldn't find a wire to match up to the mk2 J243 which is part of my problem. The other is the instrument dash lights...which could also be a fuse since i think i did short something out blowing a fuse.
But yea maybe someone else taking a look would be able to make some more sense of it as well. That would be awesome.
Thanks--Kane
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OK Kane. I can supply you an 83 schematic later in the day if you still think that helps, but I don't have the Bentley for the late mkII here in CA. I only have an earlier Bentley which covers 85. I have that same late TD cluster which I pugged into my 90 Jetta NA. I expect the single harness makes things easier for mounting, but I honestly don't remember which side it's on.