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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Jettage1 on February 12, 2009, 03:00:39 pm
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I have two issues, (well, regarding my Jetta anyway...) they may or may not be related:
The facts:
1. New IP - Giles modified, now with LDA (unlike stock ECO pump)
2. New timing belt, water pump, rebuilt injectors, new heat shields, new glow plugs.
3. Engine timed following Bentley and Vince's how-to. If anything, it's slightly retarded now, prob. just under 94.
The issues:
1. Intermittent noise - usually louder when cold, but intermittently loud when at operating temp. (Sometimes very loud, sometimes not there at all.) A staccato "TACK-TACK-TACK-TACK" sound. Always louder at idle, just off idle, and when I'm lugging it up under load. Gone at higher rpms - say 2,000 +. This noise wasn't there before I did all of the above work.
My guesses: a bad hydraulic cam follower / lifter? I plan to pull the valve cover this weekend & check them. Second choice: stuck injector, except that (a) they're new, and (b) the screwdriver test didn't reveal one dramatically louder than the other. The two at the end away from the belts were a bit louder though. According to Giles, the IP has an aggressive advance curve, so maybe this is part of it, but I do have the timing fairly low...
2. Smoke is inconsistent - that is, I can have some days where when the car is up to temp, no matter how hard I flog it, I just get a light haze out the back. Other days (like today) there is much more light grey or even dark smoke, even under lighter throttle. I have no idea what's going on - seems to me it shouldn't change like this...
All ideas, postulations, proffers and wild a$$ guesses welcome!
And thanks!
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My first guess was a defective injector, but while you are checking the lifters, if you pull the cam, check your valve springs. While one bad one will always give the same symptom, 2 or more weakish ones will cause intermittent problems. And also check how the lifters are in the bore. the lifters may be good, but maybe you have one or more bores worn out. As the lifter turns, it gets oil, sometime not.
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When you say the lifter bores might be worn out, do you mean they would be oversized and/or out-of-round? How do I tell? Is it that the lifter would be loose / rattly in the bore?
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The worn ones i've seen were oval, but very hard to tell. they were on taxi's that had a very hard life, running 24 /7 and not always with the best oil. If i remember ,it's obvious when they are worn. When they are good, the lifter should have some drag going in when they have oil on them. The springs will be obviously harder to tell without removing them.
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i don't really know too much about diesel timing and the effects on the engine.. But aren't ECO pumps supposed to be timed to a stock setting of 1.00mm, and performance setting of 1.00-1.05mm.
Would having the pump set at; "If anything, it's slightly retarded now, prob. just under 94." Cause an issue?
That should be way retarded for an eco pump. Try adjusting the timing maybe? before tearing in to the engine.. I dunno if that's the problem.. but it sure could be.
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If it didn't do this before the new parts I would start there. Also if it sat for a month or more without moving I would suspect sludge in the oil and would get it hot and change it, it won't hurt.
The intermittant smoke would seems most likely to be the injector not working correctly. Again if it sat for a while the fuel could be crap as well. Just some things to think on.
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Cave - thanks for the extra info. If I dig down below the cam, I'll check those things as best I can. Engine has 210K miles, so some of my issues may just be long term wear...
Hi Jeremy - yes it's retarded for an ECO (take that anyway you like... :D), but mine is a Giles performance build with an LDA (which the ECO didn't have). When I found that it was noisy after the install, I backed off the timing to see what effect it might have, esp. since I wasn't dealing with a stock pump anymore...I had read that too much advance could cause excess noise.
And theman53 - thanks for your ideas. I hadn't thought about the oil, but I am due for a change, so I'll add that to my checklist. I like your thought about the injector causing the intermittent smoke. If I can get the noise to really hammer at idle, maybe I'll try the injector crack test (open each line in turn) and see if the noise changes. My last fill-up could have been as much as a month ago. I run veggie (carefully!) so I don't burn my diesel tank very quickly. I did recently add a glass in-ine filter (mainly for observation purposes) so I'll monitor that & see how the fuel is looking.
Thanks for all the input... I'll mess around on Saturday and report back... Keep it comin'!
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Update: damn thing makes me crazy. Did get the oil changed at least. When I took it out & got it warmed up, for part of the drive it was smokier under load, and also noisier at idle. "Good", says I, & headed home to do some testing. But while headed home, the smoke was less and when I pulled in it was almost as quiet as a gasser.
Aaaaargh!!! How am I supposed to fix it when it's waffling all over like this?
:evil:
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sounds to me like the injectors might have been sticking? or they just needed to be broken in a little?
keep driving it, and don't baby it. it might just need an italian tune up :lol:
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sounds to me like the injectors might have been sticking? or they just needed to be broken in a little?
keep driving it, and don't baby it. it might just need an italian tune up :lol:
Maybe so, but it's been doing this for a couple of weeks... The injectors were rebuilt by Giles & installed with the new IP...
Sometimes when a vehicle is frustrating, it is cathartic to just wring the snot out of it! :lol:
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Don't baby it. it might just need an Italian tune up :lol:
Hey man, that works on alllll engines; big, small, gas, diesel, 2 stroke or 4 stroke.. Every engine benefits from a good rippin' IMO :lol:
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Don't baby it. it might just need an Italian tune up :lol:
Hey man, that works on alllll engines; big, small, gas, diesel, 2 stroke or 4 stroke.. Every engine benefits from a good rippin' IMO :lol:
I would have to agree with this statement. Most engines, especially Diesels, HATE being babied. I found this out the hard way with my Daytona, since the PO babied the hell out of it. I get it and proceed to drive it like any normal person w/ a Turbocharged Gasser. :twisted:
*cough* anyway, now I'm wrapping up changing the Intermediate shaft, oil pump, and bearings....
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I agree too with givin'er some pedal. Before my rings seated it was loud as hell and sounded like death. I think (with the any engine) you need to get the rpm up (when hot) quite frequently to ensure the oil gets EVERYWHERE.
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All that is good and the more you throttle tune it as I call it, if something is completely screwed then you will know it sooner than later :lol:
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Are you running it on veggie oil when it's doing this variability? That could be part of the issue. We had a '74 Mercedes that we were running on veggie oil, and it would get as quiet as a gasoline engine when it was idling on veggie... and typical mercedes clatter when on diesel. The smoke also changed from black smoke on accelleration with diesel, to faint gray smoke all the time, but much less black on acceleration when on veggie oil. For testing purposes, maybe keep it on a tank of B20 for a while to see if that's the difference.
Z
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Hmmm... Good point. I'll have to pay attention to that variable & see if there's any consistency there.
As I think about it now, I start on diesel (cold) so it's noisy b/c of the temp. Smokes grey when cold (not at idle) unless I'm very careful with the throttle. Warmed up & running on veggie, sometimes smokes under load, sometimes not, always light grey. Can be noisy or not on veggie, especially noticeable is the rhythmic TAP - TAP - TAP, but it doesn't hang around. Usually by the time I get home and have switched to diesel for the shutdown, the noise is gone. :(
But I have wondered if the veggie makes any difference. Maybe it's causing an injector to misbehave???
The other thing I'm wondering about - since I got a Giles performance pump, should I be expecting more smoke than when running a stock pump? What do others experience?
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If a lifter is (going) bad or an injector is sticking, would either one be consistently bad, or can they come and go?
I hope to pull the v.c. this weekend and check the lifters. Am also going to check the timing one more time.
I did test the injectors (cracking the lines) and the only thing I noticed was that the car ran worse with each one cracked. Also, when it is running noisy, the screwdriver test doesn't seem to indicate an injector. The noise seems to be mostly under the valve cover.
If I do replace lifters, should I just do 'em all? And do I need to worry about how the cam mates with the new lifters? Maybe use assembly lube or something?
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I'm going through the same thing right now, and kind of coming to the same conclusions. I've had the tapping now through my original injectors, a new set of Prothe injectors, and my original injectors with replacement Bosch nozzles so I'm pretty darn sure it has nothing to do with them!
I haven't really figured out any way to "test" my followers other than swapping in new ones. On the upside they're reasonably cheap - less than $8 each! I might just do it for the hell of it...
Anyone know what the proper break in process is for new lifters? Do you have to do anything special like when you put a new cam in?
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I believe that testing the lifters (followers) involves having the engine up to operating temp, shutting it down, and removing the cover. You then push on the lifter with a non-metallic object (i.e. stick) and see how much they deflect. Going from memory, I think it shouldn't go down more than 1 mm. Bentley outlines the process...but it's at home so I can't look now.
btw, vanbcguy, does the tapping ever get greater or less for you (when the car's hot), or is it consistent?
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I have noticed that enough oil blows back from the crankcase return hose into the intake that it slowly runs down the intake tube. Not enough that it actually drips out somewhere, but still...
Could it be that some of the smoke is resulting from that "recycled" oil being burned?
The car does have the plastic baffle on top of the cam towers, btw. There is some smoke/oil mist that blows out if you remove the oil fill cap when it's running...
Probably a long shot.
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bump... vanbcguy - did you ever check your lifters? What did you find?
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Hey, sorry, hadn't seen the thread again for a bit...
Mine seems to have gone away. All I can attribute it to is doing an "Italian Tuneup" or two. After driving the car hard for a day or two the tapping went away and hasn't come back!
I think the bit of oil in the intake tube is pretty much normal. My ABA gasser does it too, a lot more so than my diesel. With the ABA it's not unusual to find oil stains on my air filter.
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So I pulled the turbo - taking the advice of folks who said that some of my smoke issues might be turbo seals.
Good thing I did - the shop doing the rebuild said that if I'd have run it much longer it would have grenaded. The shaft looked good, but the housing was galled & had to be bored out & sleeved. They saw a fair amount of oil on the compressor (intake) side. Some of that might be blowby - I may look at a catch can too.
Anyway, can't wait to get it back on the car & see if some of my issues go away.