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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: truckinwagen on February 05, 2009, 05:51:49 pm
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my rabbit took a dump, slipped its timing and bent a valve one hour after a full professional head rebuild, so unwilling to spend another $250 on head work I decided to rebuild the head myself, and twincharge it while I have it apart.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P1020015.jpg)
its a mech head on a hydro block, its getting an ABA camshaft with an adjustable gasser cam gear modified with the diesel outside, ported, but not too much(I didn't feel like putting lots of energy into the head as it is crap anyway)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P1150003.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P1150009.jpg)
I did a raintray delete for some added space in the engine compartment as well as removing the brake booster and putting in a buggy master cylinder.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P1250005.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P1250009.jpg)
I installed rear discs from a 'rocco as well
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P2010008-1.jpg)
I hope to have the head rebuilt this weekend, I have all the valves ready to be lapped and I peened the precups to hold them in
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P2010002-1.jpg)
my plans for the motor right now are simply to get it running again, I have the ABA camshaft to get in and working as well as a Cummins injection pump to modify the pulley on, currently the pulley I have has the wrong offset, but I have a friend with a lathe that I hope will help me out with getting all of the pulleys figured out.
eventually I will have a K24(on the motor right now) feeding a G60 supercharger(bought but not here yet and in need of a rebuild) with a large intercooler in between to protect the supercharger from the heat that the turbo will be generating at 25+PSI as well as water/meth into the intake manifold to help control EGT's
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P1250001.jpg)
I will be flipping the turbo over and running a modified gasser manifold to help equalize the pressure across the cylinders.
the project is moving slowly right now as the car is in a friends shop and I can only really work on it on the weekends for a few hours at a time, but with any luck I will have it fired back up in a month or so.
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why do people peen the precup in since it can't fall out unless its broken?
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it can fall a little, crushing the HG underneath it causing it to come in contact with the piston, no good.
I peened it just in case since it only takes a minute and cant hurt anything
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i would get that head planed... but since its crap don't bother.
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Well i'll be the first to say COOL! this will be a fun build to watch, keep the pics coming!
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what are you thinking of doing for the supercharger when the turbo overcomes it?G60 intakes have that extra port on the throttle body to divert pressure,maybe use that somehow
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Isn't a Supercharger just going to be a differential device? It would probably work similar to compound turbos with no need for a bypass, wouldn't it?
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Your planning on filing down the pee'ns where the gasket surface is right? 8)
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I am going to take a sanding block to the head to flatten out the peen marks and the other crap on the surface, I will be careful to end up with a good flat head, and yes I would pay for resurfacing, but the head is ***, so I will save my money for a new one sometime.
because the G60 is a positive displacement supercharger it will compress the compressed air from the turbo further similar to a compound turbo setup, generating higher boost pressures than either the turbo or supercharger could without taking them outside their efficiency ranges.
I will keep updating as things happen.
-Owen
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I am going to take a sanding block to the head to flatten out the peen marks and the other crap on the surface, I will be careful to end up with a good flat head, and yes I would pay for resurfacing, but the head is ***, so I will save my money for a new one sometime.
because the G60 is a positive displacement supercharger it will compress the compressed air from the turbo further similar to a compound turbo setup, generating higher boost pressures than either the turbo or supercharger could without taking them outside their efficiency ranges.
I will keep updating as things happen.
-Owen
That's really cool. I didn't know that.
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why do people peen the precup in since it can't fall out unless its broken?
I've seen pics of several that have fallen in whole.
Andrew
I have a one in my shed that fell out whole, and the engine needs a full rebuild and oversized pistons as a result :evil:
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eff man. How old was the head?
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because the G60 is a positive displacement supercharger it will compress the compressed air from the turbo further similar to a compound turbo setup, generating higher boost pressures than either the turbo or supercharger could without taking them outside their efficiency ranges.
A local legend in these parts did a twincharged G6016vT back in the day... he was using the g60 to pre-spool the turbo.... when I had seen the title I figured that was the route you were going to take....
regardless.. a very cool build....
I'll be watching
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:lol:
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well, I got all of the valves lapped, but when I went to re assemble the head I realized that AutohausAZ only sent me four f the eight valve stem seals I ordered, so I was forced to go down to Crapa(because I dont want to wait for more to be mailed to me) and buy the only seals in the state for $3 a piece.
they turned out to be super cheesy, more like a plastic bushing than a rubber seal, I will take some pictures soon and post them.
I will be putting these ***ty seals in the head because I just want the damn thing to run, we will see how well they work.
other than that not much progress other than getting a GTI cluster with a tach to modify to use a sender from a electronic speedometer, which will also be getting a pair of gauges installed in between the tach and speedo where the warning lights used to be(gauges are so much better than idot lights)
more soon!
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also i am looking into stronger rods as i believe you are too, the closest one i can find is a g60 rod which is a 136mm length and 22mm wrist pin, our cars need a 24mm wrist pin, i wonder if theres enough meat on them to bore out an h-beam rod to 24mm. but who is crazy enough to spend that much on rods to hack them up. just throwing that out there
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Our rods are already cast and of high grade. You would need to be making serious power to need to upgrade them. I would consider ceramic coating long before i looked for better rods. You would need some fancy stuff to be an upgrade.
Or so i've read on here anyways....
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unless your making crazy low RPM torque, you don't need stronger rods.
i'm curious if the 3 cyl TDI that has the same bore & stroke as the 1.6 motor has interchangeable rods? i'm sure they would be capable of withstanding low end torque... which also brings up the feasibility of the 1.6TDI :twisted:
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well, the whole reason I am going twincharge instead of just a big turbo is low end torque, so we will see how long the stock rods last.
there is one company making high strength rods for the diesel but they cost $800, so I will be looking other places first, I am talking to a newer company making rods and they might offer diesel rods soonish, but I am not going to hold my breath.
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Not sure on sizes but there are several aftermarket options for air cooled vw rods. Also check small block chevy rods there are several sizes avaiable and they are cheap due to the popularity of them. What are the specs of your rod? I'll look to see what i can find.
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Not sure on sizes but there are several aftermarket options for air cooled vw rods. Also check small block chevy rods there are several sizes avaiable and they are cheap due to the popularity of them. What are the specs of your rod? I'll look to see what i can find.
they're 136mm center to center, 24mm wrist pin, 50.6~mm big end, and they're 24.9mm wide
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http://www.appletreeauto.com/detail.aspx?ID=15340
http://users.cs.fiu.edu/~jstric01/images/VW/vw_type_iv_air_cooled_2.htm
Looks close enough to make em work.
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I'd look for I-beam rods instead cause they handle boost better than H-beams. H-beams are better for high RPM.
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well, it looks like those rods have the right size pin, but the big end is too big, and neither site says what the length is, but that is a conversation that can continue as I have no short term rod plans
here are the pics of the valve stem seals I got for $3 a piece:
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P2090033.jpg)
I really don't like them, they are a hard plastic and shaped more like a bushing than a seal, but we will see how well they work, because they are going in the head.
my buddy who's garage my car is in has talked about letting me into his shop on weeknights to work on the car, so I might have more progress than I though in hte next few weeks.
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yikes, those are pretty crappy, no springs on the seals. material looks kinda low end too :(
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yeah, I don't like them at all, they are hard plastic and more like a bushing than a seal, but its what I got, so we will see.
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fyi - the reinz / crp ones look like this
(http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~mw105397/dubdoctor/parts_site/idi_images/valveseal.jpg)
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yeah, I have four of those, I thought I bought eight, but only four shipped and I cant wait to have anther four shipped to me, or afford to ship them overnight.
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the ones i bought from prothe look exactly like myke_w's picture there. except orange.
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I would much rather have the rubber ones, but the stupid NAPA ones will have to do for now.
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no more progress yet, I have been busy pulling parts off a free car for my friend before it goes to the crusher, we are turboing his 8valve gasser in his GTI.
I got a crossflow head and all of the engine wiring/ECU for him.
I figure its the least I can do for him since my car is sitting in his shop right now.
but I will try to get the head ready to go on this weekend
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got the head back together, it is a piece of junk and I am only going to run it until I get a new one rebuild(this time hydro to match my block)
I am not re-lashing the valves as I hope to be running this head for less than three months, the lash is not bad, but will be loud until I get the new head put together.
this weekend I will finish plugging the extra holes in the gasser intake and get the head and manifolds installed.
I have the injection pump and pulley at a machine shop to enlarge the tapered bore to fit on the Cummins pump, gonna cost $160, which is gonna hurt(I am already having trouble keeping gas in my wife's car) but there doesn't seem to be any way around it.
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I wouldn't be too quick to condem those NAPA seals yet, most likely the white material is teflon and they do have a spring around them. Perfect Circle used to make those type of seals and they worked very well, especially on Chevrolet motors that only used that little O-ring.
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yes they are teflon, but the problem is that the inner diameter is smaller than the valve stem, and the rigid tendency of teflon means that they got kinda mangled installing them, they will still probably seal pretty good, but they were a real pain to install.
in the future I will do what I can to get the rubber ones instead
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Just a tip, the valve seals you are using from Napa are Teflon. Two drawbacks as opposed to the stock, you really need a special tool to install them as they are usually very tight and not as flexible as the factory seals. Also while they are very slippery and under high stress hold up far better than any rubber seals, they will "leak" more oil into the cyls.
Unfortunately you only had one source of parts and you really, really needed them NOW. I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me, last minute, hurry up, oh just make it work. Great project and can't wait to see the finished product.
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yeah, I am getting a hydro head from a guy here on the forum, which I ill take my time rebuilding, doing it right.
the head I have now is just a "get the thing back on the road" kind of thing.
the car will probably just be turbo for a while because I recently admitted that I am poor, and the rebuild parts for the G60 supercharger are expensive!
but hopefully the pup gear will be done today and I can start re-assembly on saturday
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well, the car should be on the road tomorrow, I had everything done only to find out that I had a dead battery, dropped a cell.
so I bought a new one and will throw it in the car tomorrow.
so first firing of a motor that has been out of commission for a full year will commence tomorrow!
I will bring my camera and take pics/video of the beast in action.
unfortunately the supercharger will have to wait until next season when I get my new motor built up(1.5 crank with AAZ pistons in a sleeved 1.6 block)
more updates to come!
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I pulled the motor on mine today, but before I did, I wanted to see if it would start after 6 months sitting and a tank of summer diesel.
Started on the first crank.
Oh how I missed your loud, shakey goodness.
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yeah, this should be harder though, brand new IP and dry injectors/lines.
I primed the pump with a vacuum gun, but there is always some air trapped in it somewhere.
I really hope I get more than the hour of running time before catastrophic failure like last time :D
I also need to finish bleeding the brakes, every time I bleed brakes from dry I say this, but Damn it sucks!
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if you leave the lines cracked it will prime straight away. After being drained and sitting for many many months i just connected the lines all up and spun the IP with a ratchet. It primed very quickly. like ... 5 minutes of turning it with a ratchet and then 15 seconds of cranking.
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thats my plan.
will still take some time cranking and will run rough for a while.
nothing primes a motor like running it!
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nothing primes a motor like running it!
or an electric lift pump :lol:
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I have one of those too, but they wont get all the air out of the injectors and lines the way that running the bastard will.
its really not that bad, just a little smokey for a bit.
oh, yeah, I also need to build my downpipe! right now the turbo outlet is pointing at the inner fenderwell.
the downpipe is going to be tricky as I have to clear the framehorn and the tie rod as it curves back and around towards the tunnel, very limited space for a 2.5 inch pipe.
very doable though.
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PICS!
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dont yell at them man.. he's busy
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well, no dice.
first up my starter was bad, wouldn't even turn on the bench, so I threw a gasser starter on it we had lying around(not as good I know, but it was there) but it will only turn the motor at 200 RPM, is that fast enough to start it? would it be because its not a diesel sterter?
I might just have to go buy a new diesel starter to get it turning fast enough.
next up, just cranking is pressurizing the coolant enough to burp out of the overflow with the cap off(WP and Alt not turning because I need to get a belt 1/2'' shorter) so I need to pull the VC off and torque the studs more( they are torqued down to 80ft-lbs right now with ARP moly lube) I think I will go to 95 ft-lbs and see if that will hold.
any ideas about why it is turning so slow(200rpm)?
do I need to just bite the bullet and buy a new diesel starter?
pics of the beast will be posted later when I have my camera cord.
-Owen
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well, no dice.
first up my starter was bad, wouldn't even turn on the bench, so I threw a gasser starter on it we had lying around(not as good I know, but it was there) but it will only turn the motor at 200 RPM, is that fast enough to start it? would it be because its not a diesel sterter?
I might just have to go buy a new diesel starter to get it turning fast enough.
next up, just cranking is pressurizing the coolant enough to burp out of the overflow with the cap off(WP and Alt not turning because I need to get a belt 1/2'' shorter) so I need to pull the VC off and torque the studs more( they are torqued down to 80ft-lbs right now with ARP moly lube) I think I will go to 95 ft-lbs and see if that will hold.
any ideas about why it is turning so slow(200rpm)?
do I need to just bite the bullet and buy a new diesel starter?
pics of the beast will be posted later when I have my camera cord.
-Owen
did you install an mls gasket? i think 80 ft-lbs isn't enough to 'crush' it...
and with good compression and good glowplugs, 200 rpm should be enough to start your car.
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I torqued my mls to 80 or 85 lb-ft and started it got it warm a few times idling. No cap on the coolant res then went 1/4 turn tighter when the engine was warm. got 1000 miles of easy break in miles (till latley) no probs. I wanna run 20 psi so bad.
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yeah, I was pretty sure I would need to torque it down more, but I was hoping that it would hold coolant so I could warm it up before I retorqued it.
it seems to be turning over lots slower than it used to, I will probably buy a new starter anyway just to be sure, as I don't want to be running a gasser starter forever.
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so here she sits as of now, still not running.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P4030004.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P4030006.jpg)
here is the injection pump that I have about $1000 into buying and making work
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P4030012.jpg)
my 18 gallon sears cruise tank
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P4030014.jpg)
and the cool stuff I scored from a guy selling his collection!
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P4030016.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P4030017.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P4030018.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P4030019.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/P4030020.jpg)
hopefully I can get this damn thing running before I go to Dutch for the summer!
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well still no go, I torqued the studs down to 100 ft-lbs and it is still pouring coolant out the front and burping out the expansion tank.
still wont start either, although I suspect the fuel system still needs priming.
any ideas about how to get the HG to seal?
I might see if I can get a fiber HG just to get this damn thing on the road.
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If it's not holding coolant at 85 ft lbs at idle it won't at 110 ft lbs. Sounds like the head is warped.
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I have used a Wurth Sealant in the past that has worked great, but it's in my tool box at work so can't remember it's exact name.
A local engine builder had a head gasket problem on a race car in endurance racing, it would go after 3 events. They done about 3 gaskets and eventually tried this stuff and never done another. :lol:
I can get the name Tuesday(Monday your time :) )
Oh but I agree with above, sounds like something is warped............
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well, at 110 ft-lbs it stopped pushing coolant out of the head, but it still pressurizes the tank(not bad, enough to burp out coolant when I remove the cap)
I agree, something is probably bad, but right now I dont really care that much, I am going to be building a new motor for this thing anyway.
all I really want is for it to fire up so I can get it out of my buddies shop before I leave for the summer.
if it will fire and hold enough coolant to get it across town, I will be happy.
-Owen
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well, still no fire yet, I have already cracked loose the injection lines to prime them, all four have fuel spurting out when loose.
still cranking for 30 seconds and let sit for a couple minutes(dont want to fry my brand new starter) but still nothing.
hopefully it will fire up soon and I can take it for a shakedown run today.
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hey, you should try and get an intake mani off a 85 or newer 8 valve. they have the intake on the other side. then you could shorten up your boost pipes a ton. and it would simplify plumbing so much. i put a mk2 intake on my car first, but didnt like it at first because it was kind of close to the shock tower, but then i put the mk1 intake on it thinking it would be better to plumb, but i ended up taking it back off and putting the mk2 unit back on. im not trying to push you to change it, but it would probably be a ton easier to plumb.
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well, still no start, I pulled the head to replace the HG for a fiber one(a little more forgiving in the flatness department) only to find that I was sent a TDI HG not an AAZ one, there is no provision for sealing around the prechablers, which might have been part of my problem.
I am at this point fairly sure that the motor was loosing too much compression out the gasket to fire properly, as the fuel system was timed and primed properly and the starter was turning it plenty fast.
so CRAPA has a fiber gasket coming for me on monday, we will see how that pans out.
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If it still doesn't fire with the fresh gasket, make sure your pump isn't timed 180* out. It won't fire like that.
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dont you have to have the cam plate in upside down to make it timed 180* out? cause theres only one mark on the pulley, and it has a key way.
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dont you have to have the cam plate in upside down to make it timed 180* out? cause theres only one mark on the pulley, and it has a key way.
But there are two locking pin holes on the sprocket. You're right there is only one mark, but it seems to be an awfully common occurrence in these "no start argh!" situations.
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no, I have it timed with the mark not the hole.
I am pretty sure that it is just the gasket, I will try again on monday when I have a fresh one.
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well, new gasket is on, and holding.
its a fiber gasket and torqued to 90 ft lbs, no more pressure in the coolant.
still hasn't fired, but the fuel system is still bleeding and my battery was tire from all the cranking, so I put a charger on it and will try again tomorrow.
I hope that my problems are solved!
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i know this may sound stupid.. but is it a hydro head? if its a mech. head and you haven't checked the intake and exhaust valve clearance the valves won't be closing all the way and it will be letting out all the compression.. don't ask how i know this.. it was a bad day.. i'd check that!
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it is a mech head, and the lifter clearances are out of whack, but there is too much gap between the lifter and cam, not too little.
I checked the lash, and found it to be out of spec, but decided not to get new shims because this is just a stop gap motor until I get my big one built so that the car is drivable.( the lash is not that far out)
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well, I narrowed it down to injection timing.
I put two batteries on series to spin it over really fast(hoping it was just poor compression from a fresh rebuild) and no dice.
so I did some tests to make sure that my injection timing was not 180* out, and it is right on.
the pump is timed to 1mm, but since this pump is not for a VW(from a cummins) I really have no idea where it should be set at, so I am going to play with the timing(advancing it a couple degrees and trying it out, retarding it a couple degrees and trying it out)
and if all else fails I will get my buddy to tow it and get the motor spinning real fast to work out any air that might be in the system and get the compression up nice and high.
-Owen
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well, I did some research, but couldn't find much on the timing spec for the VE Cummins 4BT.
the plunger should be in the 1.25mm range at TDC, but I have no idea at what injector break pressure that is for.
anyone have any more specifics about the cummins VE pump timing?
I think I am still going to just experiment with the timing to get it to start and then just time it by ear, but some specifics of the proper timing spec would be great to start with.
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well I got it to run!
I played with the timing on the cummins pump for half a day, got nowhere, tore the pump off and threw a spare N/A pump that I knew nothing about on it(got it from a guy who had it stored in a five gallon bucket)
the car started right up, struggled for a while as the air got worked out, but now it starts quickly, ides and revs fine(haven't been able to test it out on the street as my brakes still need to be bled)
the car is putting out alot of white smoke still(needs to be more advanced perhaps?) but I am just happy that it runs.
now I get to leave it at my buddies place for three months when I go to dutch next week.
got it started just in time to let it sit all summer. Yay!
-Owen