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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: dieselwagen on January 26, 2009, 06:48:09 pm
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noticed diesel fuel leak on the backside of the diesel pump [opposite the timing belt]. (4)17mm nuts are tight. the underside of the pump is wet.
it tried to wipe the pump as dry as i could and will look again tomorrow.
where else could be a possible source of the liquid fuel leak.?
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How about the side of the pump toward the engine? The cold start lever o-ring goes bad, so I've been told.
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How about the side of the pump toward the engine? The cold start lever o-ring goes bad, so I've been told.
checked it again today
the cold start lever and the advance mechanism cover on the opposite side [towards front of engine] is still dry today after i wiped the whole pump down yesterday.
yet it was seeping raw diesel in between the cast-iron distribution block and aluminum pump housing.
used the search function and also ventured over at vwdieselparts.com and there's a 99.9% possibility the big O-ring might have called it quits.
i got a feeling this leak have also caused the coolant bypass hose to deteriorate in untimely manner a few days ago.
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Glad you found it, but offering my condolences on the necessary repair.
BTW, where in CA are you? I spent the first 30 years of my life in L.A....
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if its not a major leak, you could try running some 2 stroke oil to help swell up the seals. just don't drive in front of some prissy prius driver... :lol:
the timing plug could be leaking. i heard that you can take the washer off, heat it up with a torch? and then replace it, and re-torque. i'm not sure of the torque value though. it might be in the FAQ.
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Sounds like it's that main O ring leaking. My pump did the same thing. Eventually one of the lower radiator hoses became corroded from diesel and burst. Fortunately (I guess...) it was in my driveway. :lol:
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How about the side of the pump toward the engine? The cold start lever o-ring goes bad, so I've been told.
checked it again today
the cold start lever and the advance mechanism cover on the opposite side [towards front of engine] is still dry today after i wiped the whole pump down yesterday.
yet it was seeping raw diesel in between the cast-iron distribution block and aluminum pump housing.
used the search function and also ventured over at vwdieselparts.com and there's a 99.9% possibility the big O-ring might have called it quits.
i got a feeling this leak have also caused the coolant bypass hose to deteriorate in untimely manner a few days ago.
Yep, that'll kill your hoses. Pull your pump off and have the whole thing resealed. The other seals will begin to seep eventually. I've tried the ATF trick. I don't work. The only thing to stop it is a total reseal.
Andrew (libbybapa) reseals em, as does a guy on ebay. Either way, it has to come off to replace all the seals. You can try to replace just the distrtibutor head o-ring, but you run the risk of catastrophic internal pump damage if the cam-rollers fall out of place. It's best to replace that seal with the pump off, and the cast iron part pointing up in the air.
good luck.
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I tried the reseal trick but ended up chasing the leaks around the pump till I finally bit the bullet for a rebuilt, calibrated pump. The engine is easily making 20% more power with much better acceleration from low end as well as better midrange power. It was worth the money. I just wish that I spent it first up instead of hopefully dreaming that a few Orings were going to get me by.
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i was actually reading a pretty good write-up by Andrew [libbybapa] regarding the large O-ring "in-car" replacement. but there's no telling what kind of condition the rest of seals are in.
so it may be to my benefit to consider a full re-seal (or a re-built) at this point. and i can just have it done by a diesel pro, because i'm truly worried of effing the IP if i try to pretend i know what to do. well at least it will give me the opportunity to refresh the timing belt/ water pump at the same time. car is showing 197,000 miles on the clock right now.
MUCH THANKS for all the responses and well wishers, my '86 diesel just needs a little hiatus and hibernate for a while.
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i just want to add that my 1.6TD had a major fuel leak.. it was a pretty good dribble. right onto the lower coolant hose. it leaked for about 150km of driving. and the hose was fine. the funny thing is... the old diesel which swells up the seals in the pump was changed to ULSD (which does not have the aromatics that swell up the seals) and so even though my pump leaked, it did not harm my coolant hoses. i ran the car for another two years without any problem from that hose. i did examine it from time to time and it never bulged whatsoever.
the ATF trick in the pump might not work, but i suspect that two stroke oil would. if that doesn't, then you could always try power steering stop leak. that stuff is designed to swell up the seals inside the whole steering system, and with the P/S pump being so intolerant to foreign particles, must mean that it should be okay for the injection pump.
getting the pump rebuilt properly costs quite a bit, and is the best route to go, but not everyone has that kind of money. running the stop leak could help extend the life of the pump long enough to save for a proper rebuild. and remember that most reseal places you see online are simply that, and do nothing to bring the pump back to OEM specs. IMO you're probably better off doing it yourself in that case.
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the ATF trick in the pump might not work, but i suspect that two stroke oil would. if that doesn't, then you could always try power steering stop leak. that stuff is designed to swell up the seals inside the whole steering system, and with the P/S pump being so intolerant to foreign particles, must mean that it should be okay for the injection pump.
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thanks man, i'll try these and see if the seals will swell. otherwise i am gonna contact one of the local dubber here in northern calif. who has a spare pump i can practice on. maybe he will even trade up for my 2 ton cherry picker i don't need right now.
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the ATF trick in the pump might not work, but i suspect that two stroke oil would. if that doesn't, then you could always try power steering stop leak. that stuff is designed to swell up the seals inside the whole steering system, and with the P/S pump being so intolerant to foreign particles, must mean that it should be okay for the injection pump.
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thanks man, i'll try these and see if the seals will swell. otherwise i am gonna contact one of the local dubber here in northern calif. who has a spare pump i can practice on. maybe he will even trade up for my 2 ton cherry picker i don't need right now.
i think you'll need to run the pump straight from the power steering stop leak. just putting a can of that in your fuel tank will probably not be enough. get a small fuel filter on the in-line going to the pump from the bottle. it's very similar to running a can of diesel purge through the pump...
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I've been in the same boat.
Right after Oct 2006 when the fuel switched to ULSD around here my pump started to leak at the distributor head seal. It dripped onto the coolant bypass hose which eventually started leaking (didn't burst though which I was thankful for). Not wanted to spend the money on a rebuild and not able to afford the downtime, I resealed the distributor head in-car, using Libbybapa's method. Worked great. The only leak that developed after was at the internal seal in the LDA. Planning on pulling that car off the road soon, I took a length of vinyl tubing and attached it to the LDA vent then ran the tubing down to near road level so as to spare my hoses from the evils of diesel fuel. :lol:
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I am having the same problem too. My pump is leaking from the back somewhere. When I go to start it in the morning there is a small space on my driveway where it has been leaking fuel. I am not sure if its because of the cold weather that makes the seals shrink or if I just have bad seals and am delaying the inevitable. If I am delaying the inevitable, are things only going to get worse? I haven't noticed any performance decreases and I still get good mileage. I might as well wait as long as I can and then send my pump to Giles up in Canada and really get my money's worth! Maybe if someone could show me where Andrew [libbybapa]'s page is on how to do the in-car replacement of the o-ring it would help out a lot. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated as no one in Utah will touch my old diesel!
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I'd try the ATF trick first. It's the fastest, easiest and cheapest. A rare combo.
Things will eventually get worse with your pump. It might happen overnight or it could take a few years. There isn't really a sure way to tell. I don't think changing the head o-ring in car is a good idea. There is a lot of stuff that can fall out and you wouldn't even know it.
If it's leaking at the back of the pump, it's probably the cold start lever which shouldn't be too bad of a seal to replace. You do need to take the pump off the car for that one though. Just make sure that no dirt gets in the pump. I've taken apart a couple pumps where people have changed the advance seals and gotten a few pieces of dirt in there. They get caught between the piston and housing and wear it out, effectively eliminating your advance.
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I'd try the ATF trick first. It's the fastest, easiest and cheapest. A rare combo.
i soaked my leaky IP with ATF last friday night with a brake bleeder kit hooked-up to the banjo bolt return line til red juice started coming out.
left it for 2 days, then drove it monday and no more leak so far.
it makes sense to just do the complete re-seal at one shot, changing seal one at a time is almost like dealing with a "comeback". it just involves more work in the end.
last sunday, someone locally traded me a bosch ve pump for my cherry picker. i'm so stoked that i can now practice on a spare.
if i figure this out before anyone comes up with an offer i can't refuse, i may not even sell my '86 vw at all.
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I am having the same problem too. My pump is leaking from the back somewhere. When I go to start it in the morning there is a small space on my driveway where it has been leaking fuel. I am not sure if its because of the cold weather that makes the seals shrink or if I just have bad seals and am delaying the inevitable. If I am delaying the inevitable, are things only going to get worse? I haven't noticed any performance decreases and I still get good mileage. I might as well wait as long as I can and then send my pump to Giles up in Canada and really get my money's worth! Maybe if someone could show me where Andrew [libbybapa]'s page is on how to do the in-car replacement of the o-ring it would help out a lot. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated as no one in Utah will touch my old diesel!
if you do decide to change any seals in car, beforehand you should take the car to a car wash and power spray the areas of the pump affected. maybe even bring a wire brush to get the tough grime off. as Tyler says, any dirt in the pump could be disastrous.
i am a bit partial to libbybapa's head o-ring replacement method, as any backyard mechanic could do it (while taking great care in cleanliness, and not letting any of the pieces fall out as Tyler mentioned) his method involves unbolting the head and slightly disengaging it from the pump housing, cutting off the old o-ring, and then stretching the new o-ring over the pump head and into position. this is where cleanliness plays a big role. dirt could potentially fall into the o-ring groove upon disassembly and give you more grief. or the o-ring could catch some dirt from the pump head and introduce it into the mating surface while you stretch it on. high attention to detail, and proper cleaning are the key to success.
i just did a search, and can't find the post about the o-ring replacement. maybe libbybapa will chime in? or you can send him a PM.
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How does the ATF trick work?
I need to change out my fuel filter, should I just dump some tranny fluid in the filter and run it through?
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I'd try the ATF trick first. It's the fastest, easiest and cheapest. A rare combo.
i soaked my leaky IP with ATF last friday night with a brake bleeder kit hooked-up to the banjo bolt return line til red juice started coming out.
left it for 2 days, then drove it monday and no more leak so far.
it makes sense to just do the complete re-seal at one shot, changing seal one at a time is almost like dealing with a "comeback". it just involves more work in the end.
last sunday, someone locally traded me a bosch ve pump for my cherry picker. i'm so stoked that i can now practice on a spare.
if i figure this out before anyone comes up with an offer i can't refuse, i may not even sell my '86 vw at all.
if you follow that reseal thread with pics you should be good!
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How does the ATF trick work?
I need to change out my fuel filter, should I just dump some tranny fluid in the filter and run it through?
the pump should be exposed to 100% ATF. if you simply fill the filter with ATF, eventually diesel fuel will contaminate the solution.
the way to do it would be either let the pump sit in ATF (while being full of ATF) or get one of those ATF jugs from the local parts store, and get some hose. vinyl should work just fine for this, and also buy a small fuel filter. the hose going to the IN on the pump should have the filter on it. disconnect the fuel line on the fuel filter and hook that up to the fuel filter you bought, and take some vinyl hose and hook that up to the other end of the filter and put it into the jug. disconnect the return on the pump and hook up a vinyl hose leading back into the jug of ATF. let the car idle through as much as it takes to stop the leak (you might want to blip the throttle a bit to get the ATF flowing to the leaky spots). keep an eye on the level because you don't want lose the prime in the pump.
this DIY thread from TDIclub (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=87948&highlight=diesel+purge) has some good pics of how to do it. even though its for a newer TDI, the basics are still there. that guy went a little overboard with the barbed splicers (not really needed...) if you use the stock fuel return hose, just make sure you tape it to the jug or something, otherwise it might fling off if you walk away... thats about all i can think of that would go wrong
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i just did a search, and can't find the post about the o-ring replacement. maybe libbybapa will chime in? or you can send him a PM.
libbybapa's response in the middle of 2nd page on this thread went into detail = "in-car" o-ring replacement.
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5311
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i just did a search, and can't find the post about the o-ring replacement. maybe libbybapa will chime in? or you can send him a PM.
libbybapa's response in the middle of 2nd page on this thread went into detail = "in-car" o-ring replacement.
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5311
hurray! that should be stickied here!!!! :D
thanks!
i'll re-post it here for easy reference
EDIT: Read through the rest of this thread or this may very well not work. Okay, I did it on the bench. The process looks very straightforward, but would need to be performed systematically or else disaster might result. Here is the process I would take. The scariest issue IMO is the cleanliness issue. Any particulate in the pump head could be really disastrous for the pump or injectors. Cleanliness is more important than godliness in the diesel injection system.
1. If possible, take the car to the carwash or use a home pressure washer to thoroughly clean the pump head and injector lines. Short of the pressure washer, take out the toothbrush and start scrubbing, especially focusing on the seam of the pump body to head.
1.5. EDIT: Rotate the engine by hand so that the injection pump plunger is not being pushed by the camplate (90° crank after TDC). You can remove the timing hole bolt from the center of the pump head and measure using a dial indicator to find when the pump plunger is not moving.
2. Remove the injector lines and use tin foil to seal the injector bodies, lines and the check valves in the pump. I would go so far as to wrap electical tape around the perimeter of the tin foiled check valves, so that when the o-ring is being replaced it doesn't get damaged on the tin foil.
3. Remove the cold start cable, the rear pump mounting bolt, and the rear mounting plate from the pump head. Replace the two torx (30) bolts in the pump head but loose. Remove the center timing plug bolt. Install a short spacer and retighten the bolt down. Loosen torx bolts a small amount (1/4 turn each) and tighten the center bolt down a similar amount. Gradually work back and forth between the torx bolts and the center bolt loosening the torx a little, tightening the center one a little. When flush, the bolts are inserted clost to a 1/2" so there should be plenty of threads still inserted into the pump to keep the bolts from falling out.
4. Keep going with that procedure until the o-ring is visible. Clip the old o-ring off the pump head.
5. Stretch the new o-ring around the pump head. Remove one torx bolt and slip the o-ring into the channel in that area. Replace the bolt to the same depth as the others and remove another one. Slip the o-ring on the next bit, replace bolt, remove the next one, etc.
6. Once the o-ring is in place tighten down the two torx bolts a little at a time while you loosen the center bolt a little at a time. Remove the two torx bolts that do hold the plate on. Install the plate. Install the pump mounting bolt and cold start cable.
7. Remove tape and foil and reinstall injector lines tight to the pump, but loose at the injectors. Have someone crank the engine over while you watch for fuel at the injectors. When fuel is squirting from the lines at the injectors, tighten them down.
8. Start the car. It may run rough for a little bit while any remaining air is being bled from the pump and lines.
9. Check for leaks or untoward sounds coming from the pump or injectors.
10. Enjoy your favorite malt beverage to celebrate your success and the fact that the dealership would have charged you for a *new* pump and the labor to replace the unit.
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When I do the ATF trick I just clean the IN and OUT lines at the fuel filter and stick them both in a 1 L jug of ATF. Ideally you should use a filter but I'm pretty lazy sometimes. You need to make 100% certain that there is no dirt on the lines.
I then start the motor and rev the motor throughout the whole RPM range until there is just a bit of ATF left in the jug. Shut the motor down, hook your fuel lines back up as normal and let it sit for 24-48 hours. I usually dump the rest of the ATF into the tank for good measure.
This is not a permanent fix. Start saving your pennies
In regards to changing the head o-ring on the car, there is no possible way you can gaurantee there is no dirt in there. Whenever we take a pump apart at work there is always corrosion in the o-ring groove and surrounding area. Without taking the head out and properly cleaning it, I don't know how you could get it clean.
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Ok I am just clarifying, I remove the IN and OUT lines at the fuel filter, clean them off really good and stick them both in a jug of ATF? Are the lines, once removed, long enough? Or do you just have to find a place somewhere by or under your engine to rest the jug?
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Ok I am just clarifying, I remove the IN and OUT lines at the fuel filter, clean them off really good and stick them both in a jug of ATF? Are the lines, once removed, long enough? Or do you just have to find a place somewhere by or under your engine to rest the jug?
depends on where you put the jug of ATF with regards to fuel line length.. the return should be long enough. for the price of the filter and vinyl hose, you might as well go that route just for added protection.
just make sure that the jug is very stable and won't fall over. you have to also take into consideration that as the car drinks the fuel, the weight of the jug will go down... so it might topple over if not on a level surface. i'd go as far as duct taping it somewhere to keep it secure. the reason i would use vinyl hose for the IN fuel line, is so that it will stay at the lowest point in the jug (good for those pee breaks so you don't need to babysit the car. idling through the jug of fuel might take a little while.. and no i'm not insinuating that you have an overactive bladder, but i'm pretty sure your diesel might be able to idle for an hour or more on that much fuel...)
even adding another little bottle of transmission stop leak might help... all of those stop leak additives (well not all, but most) swell up the seals. adding that to the jug of ATF will most likely increase your chances for success.
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So I remove the IN and OUT lines at the 'OUT' banjo bolt on my injector, and plug them. Then attach the vinyl hose on the IN side and the OUT side of the banjo bolt and put them both in the jug. Secure the jug and start up my car and watch it closely for about an hour or so and then turn off the car reattach the original fuel lines to the injector pump and let the car sit for 48 hours?
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So I remove the IN and OUT lines at the 'OUT' banjo bolt on my injector, and plug them.
no. disconnect the return at the FILTER. make sure its clean. this line can be positioned right into the jug. no extra line needed. you might want to use tape to hold it into the jug though...
Then attach the vinyl hose on the IN side and the OUT side of the banjo bolt and put them both in the jug.
no. disconnect the IN (again making sure its clean) side from the FILTER and hook that into the small in-line filter that you bought (make note of the flow position, it DOES matter! marked by an arrow - arrow leading to the injection pump) then hook the other end of that filter to the vinyl hose, and then put that hose into the jug.
Secure the jug and start up my car and watch it closely for about an hour or so and then turn off the car reattach the original fuel lines to the injector pump and let the car sit for 48 hours?
ding ding ding!
on a side note, i cut about 1cm (maybe 1/4"?) off the ends of my fuel line going to the fuel filter. if you notice, the insides of the lines will be all cracked... this is possibly due to the old diesel as well.
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So instead of disconnecting at the pump, I do it at the fuel filter making sure that I have an in-line filter on the IN side, and then I'm good?
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Yeah pretty much. The reason for disconnecting the OUT is so you can see the ATF coming out. When it's pure and red you know that the pump is at least 85% full of ATF, which is enough.
I rev the motor up and get it done in about 15 minutes. There's no way I'd have enough patience to stand out there for an hour.
Try and get a helper to hold the jug (or start the car) and then just turn it off by unplugging the stop solenoid. I put it on the tray below the fuel filter, or the area where the air box is on a TD
Basically you are using the jug of ATF as the fuel tank.
You should use a filter, it's a good idea.
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Alright, my problem is that I don't have a clear return line going back to my fuel tank so I won't be able to tell that way.
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Alright, my problem is that I don't have a clear return line going back to my fuel tank so I won't be able to tell that way.
hmmm i forgot about the diesel thats still in the injection pump. good idea would be to keep the return hose connected to the fuel filter, and run the car for about 5 minutes or so? then put the return in the jug. i like the idea of running the car on the ATF so that the pump develops its pressure, and the ATF is forced out where the leaks are, and will have the best chance of sealing them.
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How are the pumps this guy sells? Are they rebuilt to OEM specs?
http://www.volkswaparts.com/16NA79-85InjectorPump.htm
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....ooh man, here we go AGAIN!!!! :roll:
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How are the pumps this guy sells? Are they rebuilt to OEM specs?
http://www.volkswaparts.com/16NA79-85InjectorPump.htm
from some of the horror stories, i wouldn't buy a rebuilt pump from there. until prothe gets his *** together with regards to the pump rebuilds, i won't recommend it.
honestly, you would be better off buying a genuine bosch seal kit from Giles (the ones on that site aren't genuine bosch AFAIK), and maybe a feed pump, and some other bushings from that site, and tackle the rebuild on your own, while following the guide in the FAQ (translated from French)
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ha ok thanks for the info, thought it might be too good to be true. I'm still pretty tempted to send it to Giles and have him go through it all and mod it for me. I talked to him the other day and he could do it all for 600US. Like you said start saving your pennies.
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How are the pumps this guy sells? Are they rebuilt to OEM specs?
http://www.volkswaparts.com/16NA79-85InjectorPump.htm
I don't know about the rest of his stuff but from what I have read here from other people you would actualy be lucky just to get the right kind of pump your ordered and be faulty on top of it at that. I was going to do the same thing myself till I read some things :roll: But the parts that aren't real close tollerance in nature on that site I doubt if I would be afraid to try though.
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oh my lord....
just search "prothe". Look in the buyer feedback section.
Please, no more threads about prothe! :cry:
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oh my lord....
just search "prothe". Look in the buyer feedback section.
Please, no more threads about prothe! :cry:
yea i'm with you on that. they say that even bad publicity, is still publicity...