VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: DonkeyWorx on January 22, 2009, 11:07:54 am
-
Background:
I have a mid 90's 1.9TD AAZ engine in my Suzuki Sidekick. I finally got the engine all in and wired (thanks ACME).
Initial problems I had - Would not start due to fuel delivery. I consulted many folks about this and ended up getting my IP rebuilt. Finally she started right up after I got the rebuilt pump back in, replaced my timing belt (engine only has 68K Miles) and did a STATIC engine timing (lock pump, lock cam, get TDC). As she fired up and started to run, I set the IP timing by "ear" as I did not have the Pump timing tool at the time.
The Engine runs great. Very responsive, sound good, and does not overheat at all.
Couple of issues I am still having that I thought I would get some input on.
Observations - Comments: Is the engine stock? Well, I was told is was completely stock: I received it from a company that imports them from germany (wrecked cars where they pull the engine). Of course we ALL know that I have NO Way of proving the engine is stock.
ONE: Boost Issue I believe
Seems as though when I rev the engine up, I can get my boost gauge (which is connected with a "T" on the LDA to intake manifold hose) to boost WAY past what I think stock should be (10psi on average). My boost gauge will easily PEG out past 20 PSI. Since I have a vacuum / boost TEST Gauge also - I plugged that in to get a reading. This was to see if my boost gauge was reading correctly. Well, I get the same results - I can boost WAY past 20 PSI.
So, here is my question: if I believe my Engine is Stock, running a K14 Turbo with the Beehive looking wastegate; what would cause me to get this really high boost reading?
TWO: I have a Pyro gauge (EGT) installed. However, I have not connected it to the engine manifold or exhaust yet. I have tried EVERYTHING... yes... Everything to get my exhaust manifold OFF the engine to drill and tap PRE Turbo for my sensor. Well, I just cannot get the manifold off with the engine in the vehicle.
So, here is my question: I know that is preferred to get EGT from Pre-Turbo. Well, that is just not going to happen in my case as of right now. So... I am going to go ahead and install the EGT sensor Post turbo as close to the Turbo outlet as possible (in my down pipe). I figure getting a reading somewhere is better than not getting one at all right? So to the question: what should I expect a SAFE reading to be on my EGT gauge POST Turbo? Meaning, what have some of you seen is acceptable for an average stock AAZ engine. Once I have that "number" I can truly feel comfortable that this thing is running properly and acceptable to drive around for longer periods of time.
Well, those are my two questions for now. One thing I would like to add for your reference and background: When I rev the engine, I am also getting lots of black smoke - Yeah probably fuel. Remember - This is my first VW Diesel, so I have NO reference on what she should act like.
Again - Engine Temp is PERFECT (about 183 to 190 constantly).
I am sure there will be additional questions I will need to answer, but I wanted to get these two major issues resolved. (what I think are major at least).
Thanks!
Val
-
In terms of your 20 psi boost... if your engine is like mine the wastegate had not been used for a little while and stuck closed... I got about 18 psi on my first run which was not what I expected. :shock:
After running it for a little while the wastegate freed up and one day I only got the stock 10 psi. Of course, the next day I blocked off the wastegate... but that's a different story. With a cranked up pump and no wastegate my K14 can pin a 30psi gauge... so the turbo definately has it in it. Once you go big burn you can never return.:wink:
In terms of the pyro... I think you'll have a difficult time getting anyone to tell you a post-turbo number that will be useful... the turbo becomes such a huge variable heat load when the pyro is installed this way, and there are very few people to give you numbers since this is well known to be a problematic approach.
If you really must do it I personally think the best use of the pyro will be to watch and learn the trends... but as a "my pistons are about to melt" warning post-turbo will be too late. IMHO. :wink:
-
Vince - I appreciate your insight!
So, regarding the Boost issue. Should I remove the wastegate and clean it somehow? What would be your recommendations on that? Just drive it the way it is? I am afraid the overboost might cause a problem.
Again, with the IP being rebuilt, I honestly do not know if it was all set back to the factory settings. Seeing the BLACK smoke on hard throttle (mainly when NOT driving, just sitting there not in gear) I get concerned a bit. Hope that all make sense.
Thanks,
Val
-
Ive done the same swap as you 8) , an AAZ into a vitara (uk) using acme. I also had the wastegate issue! What i did was take the wastegate off by undoing the three allen key bolts that hold it on (the rear one is a ***) then using the wastegate like a slide hammer, pop out the heatshield and it should come out in your hand, you can now clean up the valve stem and apply a little silicone spray to free it up, once its free wipe off all excess as i could burn and turn crusty making your problem worse. As you havent done any miles yet, id get her running stock then have a play.
18PSI, front mount, 2.5" straight through and a 1.6td boost pin are your friends :lol: seriously though ive done 4 acme conversions now so anything you wanna ask email me.
Pete
-
Mud and Diesel.
Ok, I just now pulled the Wastegate three allen bolts out. Tapped the wastegate and it came free.
EXCEPT - The rod from the wastegate is connected to what looks like a plunger (metal round plate) inside the turbo exhaust area where it bolts up.
As you mentioned, I am using the wastegate as a "slide hammer" to try and pull it free. Well, it is not coming out.
My question: Continue to pull / slap pull on the wastegate until it comes free right? Meaning, that "plunger plate" I described should come out also right?
Looks like a lot of exhaust residue buildup. No wonder I am boosting up to 30 psi... goodness.
:D
-
Update:
Ok, I got my wastegate off and cleaned it all up. I got it all back in tonight and I am getting NORMAL boost now. YAY ! About 12psi at WOT.
I also went ahead and put my EGT Sender in POST turbo, close up by the turbo in the down pipe. (I know I know... but read above and you will see why)
Took her for a spin. Pretty nice now that I feel more comfortable with stock settings.
Ok, so as far as EGT Temps go - cruising down the highway about 55 mph, I am running around 1000 F to 1200 F EGT Temps (from half throttle to WOT throttle at full 12 psi boost). Around normal? Yeah, I can run her up to around 1400 F if I wanted too, but I am sure that is not good.
Again, if anyone else happens to be running post turbo EGT gauge, please give me some of your thoughts.
But, for the most part - I am pretty stoked.
Looks like I REALLY need an intercooler to get these EGT Temps down. I may go ahead and increase the boost a bit (take her up to 15psi) to try and get EGTs down also. Still have some black smoke, so I am assuming it is due to unspent fuel.
-
Okay, we still need more info. What tranny ya runnin (gear ratios), Do ya have a Tach? What RPM at 55 mph?
Based on when I had my EGT post turbo and now it's in the manifold, if I remember, there was about a 200 degree difference (higher in the manifold).
Those numbers seem kinda high. What size down pipe/exhaust?
-
Again, Most of the info you are asking - the answers will not help you.
The AAZ is in my sidekick.
I am running a Sidekick Tranny.
I am running a Sidekick Transfer Case.
I am running Toyota axles with a 4 link rear and 3 link front suspension (solid axle swap).
I am running 5.29 RP Gears with a spool in the rear and a locker in the front.
Oh, and the TIRES are 33" Goodyear MTR's
The downpipe is 2.5 inches all the way out to the tailpipe through a turbo muffler.
I do not have a tach setup yet as I need to get a Dakota box and wire it in off the alternator.
Sorry, it isn,t as simple as most
:D
Again, the EGT sender is about 2 inches from the Turbo flange.
This image is BEFORE I got my bumpers on:
Thanks for any input though.(http://www.valmueller.com/gallery/95kick/large/0044.jpg)
-
Have you played around with trying to lean it out some?
I had a situation where the gearing was a little too tall for my 1.6 and my egt's were high cause I was lugging the engine a little. I just was curious if the gearing was tall.
-
Honestly - I think my gearing is about spot on. Maybe a little off - meaning I can cruise in 5th gear all day long where with the Gasser motor that was in it, I could hardly ever use 5th gear. Does that make sense?
I am running more RPM's down the highway than I would like... yeah, there we go.
-
If your EGT is post turbo I would make it so your EGT never goes over 800 to 1,000. The 1,400 to 1,600 range is starting in the too hot range for pre turbine. Especially since you have the big DP and gears you shouldn't need all the fuel. I think the intercooler idea will also help in lowering the EGTs some. You can do what you want, but with the post turbo I would definately try to be on the safe side than the melting the piston side. I always try to look at the good side of things and if you do some melting then you can put the EGT in the manifold while the engine is out :)
-
First off I have to comment on the rig.
VERY nice man, very nice.
I have a TD engine in my shed, just need to find the kick now... A Suzuki fan from way back obviously.
Now I see that others have already commented on the EGT's but I have to get a word in here.
If your reading after the turbo and your seeing 1200 deg you better get your foot out of it like NOW! If you hit 1400 deg post turbo I'm bettin your engine is going to have a very short life.
Honestly reading post turbo is the lazy mans way of monitoring EGT's. I understand why you did it but for heavens sake man your going to melt something..!!
I can almost guarantee you the reading pre turbo are 2-300 deg hotter than your seeing so if your hitting 1200 deg post turbo--- well you do the math.
You do not need to remove the manifold to get the prob in there, it can be done on the rig no issues. Move it please!
I/we would all hate to hear about your engine melting as I'm sure you would.
There is a few things you can do. Turn the screw on the waste gate in a bit so your getting closer to 15-17 psi. If your still seeing high temps you can turn the fuel down a bit at a time till you can live with the temps and still have it drive able. You can also add an intercooler.
After reading through all that I may have over reacted a tad but I still want you to move that probe as soon as you can. That kick is just to nice to be reading your temps incorrectly.
Look at it like this, would you want to read your water temps AFTER the coolant has gone through the radiator?
-
Dan,
Thanks for the props on the kick. It is sure fun.
Yeah, I know the risks associated with post turbo - believe me, I am NOT happy I had to put it there. But because I just got her all fired up, I needed to know where the "engine stood".
Example: if I did not put that Boost gauge in, I would have NOT known the wastegate was stuck closed; resulting in overboost.
Example: I put the Pyro in post turbo (you all know why) so that I could get "some kind of idea" where the engine stood.
Next steps: I am going to get my boost up to 15-17 like you suggested. See if that helps with EGT's.
I didn't think I would have to mess with the fuel screw (at first) only because the engine is stock. Still has the stainless collar on the fuel screw. Meaning it should not be "smoking black" like it does.
But hey, now I have a baseline and can move forward fine tuning the TD. Very fun, very exciting.
When I get a chance to get the Kick up on a friends lift, I may see if I have enough room to PULL out the center exhaust stud, drill, and tap there to put my EGT sensor in. Again, I think there just might be enough room once the suspension is at full droop to get in there. Will see.
Thanks again for everyone's input and understanding why I have done what I did (and not bashing - just understanding).
Heck, without you guys I wouldn't have known too check my wastegate.
:D
-
If your EGT is post turbo I would make it so your EGT never goes over 800 to 1,000. The 1,400 to 1,600 range is starting in the too hot range for pre turbine. Especially since you have the big DP and gears you shouldn't need all the fuel. I think the intercooler idea will also help in lowering the EGTs some. You can do what you want, but with the post turbo I would definately try to be on the safe side than the melting the piston side. I always try to look at the good side of things and if you do some melting then you can put the EGT in the manifold while the engine is out :)
That is what I was looking for. I figured that was "around" what F degrees I should be at.
Thanks!
-
Great looking truck ! I with I could have a diesel in my Jeep Rubicon !
Yeah, EGT of 1600 is the beginning of damage to your exhaust turbine, especially at high rpm (turbine)... Since it sounds like this is just your play in the mud truck (rear spool being a bit crazy on the road) - don't you have more than enough torque without going to max power ? I have yet to use my Rubicon in the mud at full throttle. I'd back off the fueling a bit to have a longer life on your turbo until you can move the probe to see what your real EGT is.
-
I guess my whole point is this:
- I believe the fuel screw has never been moved.
- I believe the Boost has never been increased.
- I believe this is a STOCK 1.9TD with 68K miles.
With that sad, I am quite surprised I am seeing the higher EGT's and some black smoke (which I believe is MORE than normal) when I REV the engine (not in gear, standing still).
One would think that a stock 1.9 TD running at stock boost (10-12psi K14) and a rebuilt IP (that SHOULD be all setup in the stock position, with no Mods) would act a bit different than the results I am seeing.
But hey, I guess this is the fun part right - tuning her up and dialing her in.
:D
-
Lets not forget its not designed to move around a lifted box either.
It was designed to move around a what 1500lb car?
Your not going to be able to leave the settings in your application.
But ya your correct, messing with it and fine tuning it for what you want is one of the MAJOR attractions to these cars..
-
1/23/2009
Update:
I have increased my boost so that it maxes out around 17 PSI. Very nice by the way.
So I drove the sidekick around today to run some errands. When on the highway, running around 55 Mph (RPM still not known) she is running about 900 or under EGT post turbo. This would be driving on flat ground to small inclines. Downhill of course she will drop down to 700 - 800.
I do have one question for some of you running PRE TURBO EGT Senders.
At idle, say sitting in your drive way with the engine at full heat operating temperature (all warmed up) - What does your EGT gauge read? Yes, just at idle sitting there.
Thanks,
Val
-
Donkyworx, you say that it puffs black smoke when revving the engine in neutral, whats it like at full throttle in say 3rd or 4th (mate following behind perhaps?) i would say a small puff of black smoke when you blip the throttle is normal, but if you get black smoke when under load at full boost then your overfueling, anything more than a light gray haze is going to build egts fast. Ive got a front mount on mine and it made a noticable difference in performance and temps, ive also got a top mount large thermostaticly controlled oil cooler, with a subaru bonnet vent to direct air through it, my oil temp sits at 80c and never goes above 90c. I cannot recommend these two mods highly enough! a real must on these boxes on wheels.
Ps That thing is awsome!
-
The more I drive it, the better the "less black smoke" it gets.
To answer your question, If I am in 3rd gear just cruising down the road, and I romp on the throttle, it "puffs" a bit of black/gray smoke then seems to go away.
I have "seen" what I believe you guys "think" I am articulating. Meaning, that big bad diesel truck that bellows. No, mine is NOT doing that.
Oh, here is another pic PRE BUMPERS. I will get some more recent pics a bit later when I get a chance to snap some more.
(http://www.valmueller.com/gallery/95kick/large/0038.jpg)
-
Found a pic with my Bumpers on :D
(http://www.valmueller.com/sidekick/95Kick-1.jpg)
-
.
At idle, say sitting in your drive way with the engine at full heat operating temperature (all warmed up) - What does your EGT gauge read?
300F.
-
Thanks Vince !
Yeah, Mine post turbo is showing exactly the same - 300 degrees.
I was just curios - I still need to move mine :oops:
-
Yeah, the point is that the turbo removes a variable amount of heat... depending on how hard it's working. One way to think of turbos is that they recover waste heat from the exhaust and convert it into kinetic energy that drives the compressor.
So at idle: its not working, it's not removing any heat.... pre and post temp readings are probably pretty darn close.
With your foot in it... it's working hard, removing lots of heat... so pre and post reading are a long ways apart. And when you need it the most...working it really hard... it will be lying the most. :cry:
You've got a stock set up, fuel-wise, and you're turning up the boost, which will act to lower EGTs, so technically speaking you should not be able to get into too much trouble.
'Course, the more of a diesel person you become, and the more you start to love all that torquey diesel goodness when climbing around in the mud.... the sooner your fingers will be reaching for the fuel screw. :wink:
-
Your rig is looking good also Val.. are you going to try and convert the tach somehow? If you do let me know how! thanks :)
Nick
-
I don't know if you can get to it this way, but I would rather have the probe in the manifold out of one of the cylinders like #1 or #4 than in the DP. Just an idea, becuase the temps your taking would scare me when reading in the DP. Nice looking ride are those MTRs?
-
Your rig is looking good also Val.. are you going to try and convert the tach somehow? If you do let me know how! thanks :)
Nick
Yes, I will be using the Dakota Digital box to send a signal to my original in dash tach using a pulse from the GM ALT.
The DSL-1 Universal Diesel Tachometer Adaptor will accept a signal from the "W" terminal found on some diesel alternators (not all alternators used on diesel engines have this extra terminal) and converts the signal into a tachometer signal for a 4 or 8 cylinder standard ignition system tachometer. The DSL-1 is adjustable to allow for the different numbers on the alternator as well as different pulley sizes on the engine and alternator. Calibration should be done using a light tach or another known reference for speed.
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=128/category_id=287/home_id=59/mode=prod/prd128.htm
-
my friend would be SO envious of you!!! He wanted me to give him my 1.6td when i found out i needed a new head. he has a tracker he's been playing around with.
i don't know what your location is but what other forums are you on?
-
my friend would be SO envious of you!!! He wanted me to give him my 1.6td when i found out i needed a new head. he has a tracker he's been playing around with.
i don't know what your location is but what other forums are you on?
Smokey,
I am on these forums:
www.zuwharrie.com
www.midvalleycrawlers.com
www.zukiworld.com
www.discoweb.org
I am located in Oregon.
:D
-
If it's a stock 1.9 I don't think you should get any smoke at all. When my 1.9 was in its stock 70bhp existence, there was absolutely zero smoke, ever - not a whiff. Now I've upped the fuel and boost (can only get 14psi tho) I get a bit of brown smoke under full load, but not a lot.
Could be your injectors I suppose but probably just coked up. If you're getting unburned fuel through that could be causing high EGTs, no?
-
Yo, you have any pics of it with the aaz in it? An engine bay shot? :D My buddy and I would love to see that.
-
Yo, you have any pics of it with the aaz in it? An engine bay shot? :D My buddy and I would love to see that.
Yes, when I get home I will get some pics posted for ya.
:D
Thanks for the cudos !
-
The more I drive it, the better the "less black smoke" it gets.
To answer your question, If I am in 3rd gear just cruising down the road, and I romp on the throttle, it "puffs" a bit of black/gray smoke then seems to go away.
I have "seen" what I believe you guys "think" I am articulating. Meaning, that big bad diesel truck that bellows. No, mine is NOT doing that.
Oh, here is another pic PRE BUMPERS. I will get some more recent pics a bit later when I get a chance to snap some more.
that puff you're seeing is the turbo spooling up. its pretty normal with a big laggy turbo, and even some smaller turbo's. sort of rare with a VNT though.