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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Rabbit TD on January 16, 2009, 05:59:21 pm
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I just posted on the troubleshooting section by mistake so I thought I'd put it here too. It is now 0 outside here in Western Md. I haven't tred to start my 81 N/A Rabbit today and I don't think I ever had to start any of my diesel VW's in the past less than 20 Degrees. I'm pretty sure it would start though but I just didn't go out today. What I was wondering though is how you guys up North get along with these little diesels because I know it gets way colder up there than here. Obviously they have to be in pretty good shape to start and what kind of oils do yo need in those temps. How cold does it have to get before you definately need a block heater and things like that :?: I've always wondered about these kinds of things especially on these older diesels and I can't imagine what it must be like with the temps you all get, It's a wonder to me if you can even shift these things unless you let them idle for a half hour :roll: How bad does it actually get up there :?: :?:
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It is above freezing here right now but that is very uncommon for January.
I often run the old Jetta 30 to 40 below zero with no problems. The fuel is all #1 here this time of year, for the most part you do not have a choice on the fuel grade you can buy in the winter. If it is going to be very cold for a few weeks I will add power service fuel conditioner. I have never had any fuel gelling problems.
The car starts easily down to about 15f. Most of the time I use the block heater if the temperature gets much below freezing. It always starts easily with the block heater even in the most extreme temperatures.
I use the same 15/40 oil all year round in the current engine, but it has alot of miles on it. The new engine will probably get a full synthetic engine oil which is far less susceptible to thickening in the very cold weather.
The last trick is a large battery in good condition. I have a 1000CCA battery.
I also have a diesel pickup which reacts a little worse to the cold weather. The best remedy for it so far has been the combined use of the block heater and an aftermarket oil pan heater.
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It is above freezing here right now but that is very uncommon for January.
I often run the old Jetta 30 to 40 below zero with no problems. The fuel is all #1 here this time of year, for the most part you do not have a choice on the fuel grade you can buy in the winter. If it is going to be very cold for a few weeks I will add power service fuel conditioner. I have never had any fuel gelling problems.
The car starts easily down to about 15f. Most of the time I use the block heater if the temperature gets much below freezing. It always starts easily with the block heater even in the most extreme temperatures.
I use the same 15/40 oil all year round in the current engine, but it has alot of miles on it. The new engine will probably get a full synthetic engine oil which is far less susceptible to thickening in the very cold weather.
The last trick is a large battery in good condition. I have a 1000CCA battery.
I also have a diesel pickup which reacts a little worse to the cold weather. The best remedy for it so far has been the combined use of the block heater and an aftermarket oil pan heater.
If I wasn't so damn lazy I would go out now and see if the Rabbit would start just out of curiosity, it's right around 0, I'll try him in the morning though :)
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Well here its around -6 Fahrenheit here. My 93 Jetta (aaz) still starts with no block heater and it has over 400,000 kms on it (Takes two tries) my 90 Jetta TD with 310,000 won't start. It tries but that's it. It will start at 5 Fahrenheit without the block heater but after that it is really tough. My 85 Golf N/A with 300,000 kms started at -6 Fahrenheit with a fight. and lastly my friends 84 Rabbit TD with 287,000 kms has NO hope of starting. It will start at around 10 Fahrenheit without the heater. All the cars are running 0w40 oil with new glow plugs.
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-19 oF the other day, glow plugs on twice, push in the clutch, crank until it's just about to catch, pull out the timing advance, and a bit of throttle. Sometimes it'll stall after a second or two. repeat above, never failed to start. 5-30 Total synthetic
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You mean -19 Celsius not Fahrenheit right??
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Aahh no. Fahrenheit .It was - 28 o C. you guys must have been about that temp also.no? It takes a while for it to get warm inside since my truck is a big empty box, but i have a diesel auxilliary heater !
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-19 oF the other day, glow plugs on twice, push in the clutch, crank until it's just about to catch, pull out the timing advance, and a bit of throttle. Sometimes it'll stall after a second or two. repeat above, never failed to start. 5-30 Total synthetic
i've heard that its not good to push in the clutch while starting.. something to do with premature failure of the bearings due to lack of oil pressure?
i've also heard of crank the engine over a few times just to squirt diesel onto the GP's, and then let them glow... and then start the motor. haven't been able to test it yet though...
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The application of a block heater doesn't have to be purely for starting reliability but for engine longevity.
I think I'm going to use my block heater until its probably 10C and greater just to be kind to the turbo and bearings and rings and other such parts that complain expensively if they have even 10 seconds of no oil (or very little)
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Well if you push the clutch in, the transmission won't turn, no bearing issue there. Less drag for the starter. I find it makes a difference. I don't see why you would crank it first, there should already have pressure in the injectors etc. The one trick i have heard of is to put on your headlamps for 2-3 seconds before cranking. Something about getting a big load through the battery cables before having the starter demanding it. Never tried it though.The only car i ever had trouble with was one of my friends 88 Digifant jetta. If you didn't keep cranking it until it started,forget it, the second crank would just flood it. Before i restored my 71 beetle, the colder the weather, the easier it would start.
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The application of a block heater doesn't have to be purely for starting reliability but for engine longevity.
I think I'm going to use my block heater until its probably 10C and greater just to be kind to the turbo and bearings and rings and other such parts that complain expensively if they have even 10 seconds of no oil (or very little)
That's the think with block heaters. It's not just that the car will start easier, it will really reduce the wear from waiting for all that cold oil to circulate.
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A nice synthetic oil will go a long ways to reducing wear as well. I tested some 5w-50 synthetic vs conventional 15w-40 in my deep freeze. After sitting overnight the synthetic still sloshed around about the same as it did at room temperature. The conventional oil took about 2 seconds before it even started pouring out of the jug. :shock:
I think the concern about starting with the clutch pushed in has nothing to do with the bearings in the transmission. It apparently will wear the thrust bearings much quicker. You have the full axial force acting on them with no lubricating oil. I'm not sure how much difference this is going to make though. :?
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A nice synthetic oil will go a long ways to reducing wear as well. I tested some 5w-50 synthetic vs conventional 15w-40 in my deep freeze. After sitting overnight the synthetic still sloshed around about the same as it did at room temperature. The conventional oil took about 2 seconds before it even started pouring out of the jug. :shock:
I think the concern about starting with the clutch pushed in has nothing to do with the bearings in the transmission. It apparently will wear the thrust bearings much quicker. You have the full axial force acting on them with no lubricating oil. I'm not sure how much difference this is going to make though. :?
ah yes thanks for the clarification... i just remember a thread by Jake a while back on why not to push the pedal in while starting, or while at a stop light. perhaps this only pertains to the older style motors, such as 1.5's and 1.6's, but not 1.9's?
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I've never heard that. Why would there be any force if the motor and transmission were basically disconnected ? doesn't make sense to me.
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I too notice a difference in starting if the pressure plate isn't being applied.
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I've never heard that. Why would there be any force if the motor and transmission were basically disconnected ? doesn't make sense to me.
It makes perfect sense... if you're starting the car with the clutch in you're loading the crank laterally!
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I've never really tried starting the rabbit in anything less than about 25F. The mitsubishi will start down to about 15F or 20F, but lower than that, it wants the block heater plugged in at least an hour or two before trying. If I plug the block heater in overnight, it'll start right up at -5F with a very short glowplug cycle (like a hot summer day). I run full synthetic in all my vehicles. I have a 1000CCA battery in the rabbit, and two 1000CCA batteries in the mitsubishi.
I also usually start them with the clutch depressed if it's cold (mine are all old ones that will start in gear if you want...). It's quite noticeable the drag the cold oil in the transmission puts on there otherwise... my gas pickup truck will actually lurch forward, in nuetral, when I let the clutch out after starting it, when I start it in 0F temps -- the gears are behaving like a torque converter, even in neutral, I guess. I need to switch the transmission fluid to synthetic too...
Z
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I've never really tried starting the rabbit in anything less than about 25F. The mitsubishi will start down to about 15F or 20F, but lower than that, it wants the block heater plugged in at least an hour or two before trying. If I plug the block heater in overnight, it'll start right up at -5F with a very short glowplug cycle (like a hot summer day). I run full synthetic in all my vehicles. I have a 1000CCA battery in the rabbit, and two 1000CCA batteries in the mitsubishi.
I also usually start them with the clutch depressed if it's cold (mine are all old ones that will start in gear if you want...). It's quite noticeable the drag the cold oil in the transmission puts on there otherwise... my gas pickup truck will actually lurch forward, in nuetral, when I let the clutch out after starting it, when I start it in 0F temps -- the gears are behaving like a torque converter, even in neutral, I guess. I need to switch the transmission fluid to synthetic too...
I remember back in the 70's this one place I worked at we had a old early 60's era International semi tractor that we used in the yard to move the flatbeds and vans around with and had a 5 speed manual trans with a 2 speed rearend. One morning it was just about 0 and after we finaly did get it started {which as a gas engine by the way] we couldn't let the clutch out in neutral for at least 5 minuets without stalling the engine even giving it some gas. God kows what kind of gear oil it must have had in it :lol:
Z
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A nice synthetic oil will go a long ways to reducing wear as well. I tested some 5w-50 synthetic vs conventional 15w-40 in my deep freeze. After sitting overnight the synthetic still sloshed around about the same as it did at room temperature. The conventional oil took about 2 seconds before it even started pouring out of the jug. :shock:
I think the concern about starting with the clutch pushed in has nothing to do with the bearings in the transmission. It apparently will wear the thrust bearings much quicker. You have the full axial force acting on them with no lubricating oil. I'm not sure how much difference this is going to make though. :?
I've been thinking about synthetic oil as well for my new engine, mainly for turbo protection on a 1.6 T/D I just built. I'm at least going to run it 1500-2000 miles though on the Shell 15-40 though to break it in better. Th only thing I'm kind of worried about though is these engines seem to burn oil even if they are in perfect condition and with the synthetic actualy being thinner it will probbly use more and the stuff is't cheap to begin with. I use Mobil-1 in my Buick and I think it's around $7 a quart now. How do some of you all do with using it as far as buning more than the dino-type :?:
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It is above freezing here right now but that is very uncommon for January.
I often run the old Jetta 30 to 40 below zero with no problems. The fuel is all #1 here this time of year, for the most part you do not have a choice on the fuel grade you can buy in the winter. If it is going to be very cold for a few weeks I will add power service fuel conditioner. I have never had any fuel gelling problems.
The car starts easily down to about 15f. Most of the time I use the block heater if the temperature gets much below freezing. It always starts easily with the block heater even in the most extreme temperatures.
I use the same 15/40 oil all year round in the current engine, but it has alot of miles on it. The new engine will probably get a full synthetic engine oil which is far less susceptible to thickening in the very cold weather.
The last trick is a large battery in good condition. I have a 1000CCA battery.
I also have a diesel pickup which reacts a little worse to the cold weather. The best remedy for it so far has been the combined use of the block heater and an aftermarket oil pan heater.
If I wasn't so damn lazy I would go out now and see if the Rabbit would start just out of curiosity, it's right around 0, I'll try him in the morning though :)
Well it's now tomorrow morning and it was right about 10 degrees and it did start and keep going { with the clutch in} after abou 6 tries. I don't have a block heater in this engine. I guess that's the coldest I ever started one of these things.
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my 94 1.9 td starts no problem -40C yesterday morning plugged in it has 250.xxxkms on it i run 10-30 semi syn oil mobile 1 i add diesel+ conditioner with cetane boost every tank.
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Mine will start at about -25c. I hate to do it as I am sure I am not helping anything survive longer. If I leave the advance alone (not advanced) and floor the throttle it will take off after several seconds of cranking. I then apply the advance to promote quicker warm up time.
I always apply the clutch pedal when I start the car, all I have ever replaced that is related to the clutch is the disc itself. At 600,000+ km I do not have any ill effects from starting with the clutch pedal depressed.
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mine starts instantly with the advance on..maby my motor is really healthy?
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Mine is tired, I used to have better luck with starting using the advance but it does not work that way anymore. I might be able to remedy the issue with a new timing belt and injection pump timing reset but I am not going to bother. It has 600,000kms on it and is getting an AAZ built for it right now. Hopefully it will start up for a few months yet, then the fresh AAZ will cure 95% of the problems and wear that the car has right now.
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As for the clutch issue... It's NOT going to wear out the bearing fast enough that you will ever notice. MOST new cars you HAVE to push the pedal to start (interlock), and there hasn't been any changes in the bearing technologies used. Besides, it always safer to make sure you push the clutch b/c there could be that one time you have it in gear and did not notice. As for any wear to the crank.... no way, there is not enough thrust applied from the clutch to ever do anything. Even in the owners manual it tells you to push the clutch in when starting.
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check here (http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1694&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30) for the thrust bearing issue (scroll down a bit... unfortunately no pics). i suppose its worse with the one piece bearing, but still... loading it at a time when there is no oil pressure can't be good.
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Somehow I think there are other factors at play with that failed thrust bearing. There are Way to many people that do push the pedal and have never had an issue versus the ones that have. It's just not logical.
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check here (http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1694&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30) for the thrust bearing issue (scroll down a bit... unfortunately no pics). i suppose its worse with the one piece bearing, but still... loading it at a time when there is no oil pressure can't be good.
When the engine is running there is no oil pressure applied directly to the thrust bearings anyway...just the oil that squirts out from the main bearing in between the thrusts. When you shut off an engine it's not like every drop of oil flows into the pan. There is still a coating of oil on all the bearings. Having the clutch engaged or disengaged can mean the difference between starting or not.
Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIsG_8TVokw
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well continue to do it your way and i'll continue to do it mine. just thought i'd pass the info on.
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I always leave it out of gear and without pushing the clutch, in warm weather.
The trany fluid drags too hard on the starter in cold weather so I push the clutch in.
I think it's especially important not to shove the crank into the thrust bearings, with little oil applied, if someone is running a stronger pressure plate.
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well continue to do it your way and i'll continue to do it mine. just thought i'd pass the info on.
Was not saying you were wrong...it is probably ideal for thrust bearing longevity to start the engine with the pedal out when possible. I do same as fatmobile...pedal out when warm, in when cold due to the drag of the transmission.